Le - Mans Race Thread

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Jumkie said:
Ive read how Lorenzo got beat straight up on the thread, seems a bit odd. Rossi did not beat Lorenzo straight up unless these same people would like to retract their off-set for VR previous performance due to shoulder injury. Lorenzo said he hurt his hand in the warm up. What is it that u guys dont understand about this as it relates to Rossi "beating" him? I did here Rossi gloat about it, though i dont recall him saying he was aware Lorenzo was not 100%. Im comfortable peeps saying Rossi beat Lorenzo straight up and discount his injury, if these same people can go back and discount Rossi's shoulder injury and chalk it up to .... performance. Otherwise, it would be nice if those saying Rossi beat Lorenzo was only because Lorenzo was hurt.



I think we can pretty safely say if Lorenzo was not hurt he would have beat Rossi. Im also pretty sure we can safely assume if Butler would hav been consistent, that is silent, Rossi would hav come a normal distant 5th.



Lets not pretend shall we?
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I thought we were not allowed to do the "what if" thing after 2006?
 
Mr Squiggle said:
I was once a HUGE Rossi fan...but over time and because of this perceived advantage he seems to have been granted and the rabid fervor of some of his more psychotic fans, I have been turned off him and now really cant abide the manner in which he seems to manipulate the sport at the expense of his fellow competitors.
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Agree
 
browney said:
I am really having trouble with Simoncelli getting a penalty while Rossi did not when he took out Stoner. Simoncelli's move, to me, is more in the grey area. I think he would have made the corner with the line he took if he hadn't collided with Pedrossa. It was unintentional and I thought more of a racing incident.



Rossi's was 100% crazy move, he would never have made the corner unless his bike was capable of a 90 degree lean angle (while braking too). I understood not penalisising Rossi if the rules are all designed around encouraging racing so these things are viewed as racing incidents, I do not understand it if then they penalise Simoncelli.
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I was as pissed off as anyone when Rossi took Stoner down but for me there is a big difference between that crash and the Sic/Pedrosa one. That big difference is that Sic came around the outside without ever being in front and cut off Pedrosa's line. This is not a legitimate racing move in my view and it is Sic's MO and that is why he is a dangerous rider. Rossi on the other hand tried to pass on the inside from a position that was too far back for the track conditions and the ability of his bike. I do not believe and never have that Rossi's intent was bad but his consideration for what could go wrong and the consequences if it did were poor and below someone of his experience.



I think that block passing, getting up the inside and taking the corner from the guy in front is a fair and reasonable manoeuvre. What should not happen in a block pass is running the guy right off the track or bashing into him to stop yourself.



I think that a consideration in all incidents should include the outcomes for the innocent party. Even in a 'block pass' for example if the innocent rider goes down through no fault of their own then that should play a part in the decision as to whether it was clean or not. Not 100% of the decision but maybe 30 - 40%. The other part of the decision should include the reasonable expectation that the move is able to be executed without incident.
 
Rossi fell himself first and then took Stoner out....even Casey admits that this is a mistake that can happen, but the Australian does not agree with Simoncelli'smove on Pedrosa. Marco did not fell, he just closed the door in Pedrosa's face.
 
vladut50 said:
Rossi fell himself first and then took Stoner out....even Casey admits that this is a mistake that can happen, but the Australian does not agree with Simoncelli'smove on Pedrosa. Marco did not fell, he just closed the door in Pedrosa's face.
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For me it all comes down to..

A. did dani hit the brakes causiung him to stand the bike up because marco cut in front. If so marco's fault

B. Dani let go of the brakes trying to run marco wide but over cooked it. If so then racing incident

c. Dani hit the bump on entry to the bend causing him to brake later and runing in to hot.. if so racing incident.
 
chopperman said:
For me it all comes down to..

A. did dani hit the brakes causiung him to stand the bike up because marco cut in front. If so marco's fault

B. Dani let go of the brakes trying to run marco wide but over cooked it. If so then racing incident

c. Dani hit the bump on entry to the bend causing him to brake later and runing in to hot.. if so racing incident.
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I don't think the incident, whilst obviously involving some impetuosity on marco's part, is completely straightforward as you have detailed.



I initially entirely blamed marco live, but was influenced post race by the australian commentators and darryl beattie in particular saying that he thought the track was bumpy on the inside and dani had hit one. Someone elsewhere put an entirely different complexion on the whole thing, that marco had made a clean completed pass and the crash was due to dani fighting back in the same continuous incident without completing his re-pass, putting less of the onus on marco in relation to who was where and had priority. One thing is sure, as someone elsewhere also argued, whatever the advantages and disadvantages of lesser weight overall, marco if he is to pass dani on the same bike with the same power has to do it on the corners, he is never going to do it on the straight.



The best perspective I have seen, obviously from the point of view of my particular bias, is that the incident was casey stoner's fault for riding too fast and making these guys push too hard
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chopperman said:
For me it all comes down to..

A. did dani hit the brakes causiung him to stand the bike up because marco cut in front. If so marco's fault

B. Dani let go of the brakes trying to run marco wide but over cooked it. If so then racing incident

c. Dani hit the bump on entry to the bend causing him to brake later and runing in to hot.. if so racing incident.
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Missed one Rog.



D. Dani did it on purpose to make Simoncelli look bad hoping to influence HRC to take away his ride and only faked the collarbone injury for sympathy.
 
Chopper raises 3 valid points, and I havent seen enough of the incident or the riders views to make a judgement. All i will say however, is its easy for a lot of forum users to write 10+ pages of argument over it, but lets see what you would have done in that situation with literally hundreths of a second to make a decision.



Its racing, at the very highest level of the sport and if Neither Marco or Dani had tried to beat each other into that corner then they would no longer be motorcyle racers. Maybe Simoncelli was too harsh, but its not like he deliberatly intended to take Pedrosa out.
 
There used to be rules on "dangerous riding" even at club level ....... I know cos I got "tried" for it one day ....... long story ..... was found to be crap cos the guy who won ( who was who I was battling with ) backed me up and said he felt totally safe with me ..... turned out the guys who did complain were 100's of metres back and just wanted the championship points whereas I was just stepping into the 125's for a fun day instead of the usual 250's. They were just pissed cos a. I beat them and B. I took their points
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Its that " totally safe with me " that is important, and unfortunately is what Simoncelli lacks ...... he was warned .... and if you race its what counts and the officials know it.
 
BarryMachine said:
There used to be rules on "dangerous riding" even at club level ....... I know cos I got "tried" for it one day ....... long story ..... was found to be crap cos the guy who won ( who was who I was battling with ) backed me up and said he felt totally safe with me ..... turned out the guys who did complain were 100's of metres back and just wanted the championship points whereas I was just stepping into the 125's for a fun day instead of the usual 250's. They were just pissed cos a. I beat them and B. I took their points
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Its that " totally safe with me " that is important, and unfortunately is what Simoncelli lacks ...... he was warned .... and if you race its what counts and the officials know it.
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You didn't race PCRA or Historics by any chance?



Asking as a guy I was talking to one day at a meeting relayed that exact same story - meeting was Oran Park and we were standing down near the medical centre.



And yep, I am serious













Gaz
 
Gaz said:
You didn't race PCRA or Historics by any chance?



Asking as a guy I was talking to one day at a meeting relayed that exact same story - meeting was Oran Park and we were standing down near the medical centre.



And yep, I am serious













Gaz
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No not "historics" .... these were originals
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the guys name wasn't Mathew was it? he would certainly translate the same story .... seeing as he was the guy who defended me
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he would have been young back then, younger than me and I was probably < 17at the time ...... sad thing is the guys doing it were both in their 30 . 40's ....... track politics
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If it was Mathew ..... he was fast .... and I mean 1/2 a lap faster than anyone else, unbelievable talent. I used to ride with Aussie champs at the time and Mathew was faster ....... but he just wanted to race a few times a month and just at club level, didn't have a lot of money I suppose, and I think he had other plans for his life with what money he did have ( sponsorships were not worth much back then ) ........ then I think girls distracted him away from racing
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That would be amazing if it was him
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vladut50 said:
Or maybe the fact that he would like to put some ballast in Pedrosa's bike, and maybe he will succeed.
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Possibly....I think he played that one very well....got Simmo to do his dirty work without taking any heat....just a theory
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Garage wall at Yam, Veto of Stoner to Yam 2006 etc etc...
 

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