Le - Mans Race Thread

[Austin]

Austin whilst we differ on our take on the incident, cause and blame you highlight the crucial part that needs to be looked at, dissected and discussed – that being that Simoncelli was penalised for an ‘illegal move’ and not for ‘dangerous rideing’ etc.

To me, in racing an ‘illegal move’ would be overtake under Yellow etc as there are clearly defined black&white rules around this, but to call that overtake illegal is a long straw to draw. Certainly it was negligent, dangerous etc but what rule was broken that made it illegal?

The more I watch it, the more I subscribe to the idea that it was more than a hard move. Still not illegal, but certainly a very questionable move. He had the lead at tip in, but he really doesn't leave anywhere for Pedrosa to go. However, I still believe that in that brief moment where Pedrosa has a hiccup under braking, this is where the crash comes from. Without that brief moment, he might be able to slow enough not to catch Sic's rear. I mean, we're talking about a matter of less than a meter, and braking from that speed, the slightest hiccup is going to costs you at least a meter. I'm not blaming Pedro, just lamenting his luck, or lack thereof.

 

[#22]

I fumbled through a few pages but can't be bothered reading 15+ pages of arguments so all I'll say is this:



Not a bad race, good ride by Stoner

Sideshow bow/Pedders - Racing incident. Sic squeezed him but was ahead

Good ride by Rossi, though with the 'yellow flag' argument i was almost sure he was ahead of dovi coming onto that straight?

 

[Pinky]

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/5/captureor.jpg



and idiots say "why did pedrosa stand the bike up"



and when rossi who is best buds with sic and one who would know his ...., comes out and says its sic's fault then thats saying something

 

[FTE217]

Class weekend by CS great to watch, Dovi - I thought you would have cracked under the yellow pressure the last laps well done and VR prevails from the carnage before, you got to be there to pick up the pieces.

 

[Nino]

Class weekend by CS great to watch, Dovi - I thought you would have cracked under the yellow pressure the last laps well done and VR prevails from the carnage before, you got to be there to pick up the pieces.

It was a good result for Dovisioso, but he should have been much further down the road on what was by far the fastest bike.



He's bound to get demoted next year.

 

[Keshav]

Ok. So you say with your racing experience, 1st lap is chaotic and hence any potentially dangerous move is 'kind of acceptable'.

Yet you show your double standards by



1. Criticizing VR on his Qatar lap1-corner1 move

2. Criticizing Sic for a far more innocent move on Stoner last race 2nd corner

3. Brush off the move by JL on lap2 as something due to race chaos.



Do you get the inconsistency there? You don't need 30 years of race experience to get that. You just need a sound and intelligent mind.

And one more thing - respect has to be earned. One doesn't usually earn that by being so full of oneself. I respect and listen to a lot of other guys in the forum because I am sure, when in a debate they would explain why I was wrong (when I am wrong) and not just point out I cannot be right as I don't have racing experience.



And BTW, I have never seen you admit you are wrong (latest examples - Ducati Test and MSMA, Stoner loosing time due to Sic in Estoril and countless other examples)





I guess I am entitled to be your reasoning patron based on this logic as you reasoning skills seem so child like

I give up. Your insistence on being obtuse, and your non-sequitur reasoning combined with the way you gloss over

everything you don't understand with ad hominen nonsense makes you not worth dialoging with. One could scoop

out your brain and the mouth would still be flapping, making as much sense as it ever has.



Unlike say, Jumkie - I don't feel it's worth the effort to do a long search through all your posts to point out all the fallacious

prattle you have spouted on this forum. You're constitutionally incapable of acknowledging how crushingly ill-informed and counter-intuitive you are on just about every topic you have taken part in.

 

[bigbang]

It was a good result for Dovisioso, but he should have been much further down the road on what was by far the fastest bike.



He's bound to get demoted next year.

I am not so sure. If Repsol keeps 3 bikes next year then it might not be a bad idea to keep Dovi.

 

[corinthian]

I am going to be interested watching the reaction to this interview given the nature of vitriolic comments at other times about others allegedly not recognising their failures. Should be good to see consistency.

What worries me is that Sic is not acknowledging his mistake. I Iike his riding and really hope he grows up! It is about time or he'll burn himself.

This is more or less what I was trying to say, Gaz. No vitriol from me, I'd love to see more Simoncellis on the grid, but if we're cloning furballs can we mod them to leave out the bonehead gene? At this point it's a 'no smoke without fire' situation with Simoncelli, and whether the majority of fans believe Simo was responsible or not in this instance, the majority of MotoGP riders seem to feel that incidents like this seem to happen too often around him. I for one don't remember seeing him snacking on humble pie... ever.



Many riders have had to overcome flaws in riding style or character to succeed at the highest level. Lorenzo is a good recent example: Dennis Noyes wrote an interesting article about how hard he worked to put an end to a string of crashes and also improve his wet weather racing. Pedrosa also used to be terrible in the wet. Progress for them required change, not just riding harder. Looking solely at Simoncelli's potential and results for this season so far, even his most loyal supporters would have to recognise he's throwing it away. And he's not making any new friends either.

 

[johnnyvvc]

Im not sure its quite over for Dani just yet -



Broken Clavicle/Collarbones usually take about 10 to 12 weeks to be fully heal (Kesh step in here as i think you have broken more of yourself then even me!), but if he gets on well with whatever route he takes from here on in (Titanium plate caused him a lot of grief on his other side), he may still have a fighting chance. As Dani is a lot younger & fitter thqan average i would say his recovery time would be significantly less...hopefully.



3 weeks to catalunya so he should be able to ride by then so if he can just finish in the top 5 (He is rather good at riding injured as he has done since 2007 i beleive & has the bike to boot), he may not fall too far behind. By the time Silverstone, Assen & Mugello get here he should be fighting for the poduim & even wins at Mugello.



I think poor Dani must be the unluckiest rider on the grid when it comes to injuries, every damn season....and he has to put up with Puig!



Think of the offs Casey has had, maybe he is a terminator underneath those leathers!

 

[MigsAngel]

If I've pieced all of the nuggets of info together properly, Ben Spies is on Rossi's development. Rossi's bike has a flexi-front-end just like the new Ducati.



Imo, if the suspension is absorbing some of the energy that would normally load the tire carcass, Spies may be having minor tire temperature issues. However, Spies says he likes the feel of the bike.

Sounds like an excuse to me....



I'd say he's under performing....previous race result can be excused but this one...not really....

 

[J4rn0]

Now, leaving aside for a moment all the controversy connected with this race, looking at the performance of the riders compared with last year, we note that :



The Winner: this year Stoner has been much faster than Lorenzo last year.



Stoner-Honda 2011: avg. speed 159.6, total time 44'03.955

[font="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"]Lorenzo-Yamaha 2010: avg. speed 158.0 total time 44'29.114[/font]

[font="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"]

[/font][font="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"]For comparison, Lorenzo in 2011:[/font]

[font="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"]Lorenzo-Yamaha 2011, avg. speed 158.3 total time 44'25.070[/font]

[font="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"][/font][font="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"]That is some difference! Lorenzo went faster than last year, when he won, but arrived only 4th this year.

[/font][font="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"]Unluckily we do not have comparison data regarding Stoner on the Ducati, as he either DNF'ed (last year) or the previous races were wet.

[/font][font="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"][/font]

[font="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"][/font][font="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"][/font][font="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"]Now let us see whether Rossi rode that Ducati well enough or not:

[/font][font="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"][/font]

[font="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"]Rossi-Ducati 2011: avg speed 158.7 total time 44'18.550[/font]

[font="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"]Rossi-Yamaha 2010: avg speed 157.7 total time 44'34.786[/font]

[font="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"][/font]

[font="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"]So Rossi was more than 16 seconds faster this year on the Ducati, than last year on the Yam. I think it is the first time that this happens. But he arrived 3rd instead of last year's 2nd place, and could have arrived further down if Pedro and Sic had not collided. This confirms the impression that this year the Hondas have raised the stake significantly, making all others look slow even when, in fact, they are racing faster than last year.[/font]

[font="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"]

[/font][font="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"]This Le Mans race could be a turning point for Rossi on the Ducati. His impression after the race confirm the data above:[/font]

[font="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"][/font]

[font="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"][font="arial, sans-serif"]Rossi, who came from ninth on the grid, told MCN: "The Ducati and the Yamaha are the two most different bikes to ride in MotoGP. They are the complete opposite. What is good with the Yamaha is quite bad with Ducati and what is quite bad with Ducati is good with Yamaha. Now you need to have a more stop and start style like you're riding a 500. In Yamaha you have to ride very smooth, all with the front. It is interesting because in one race like this you learn more than in five days of testing. I think I rode the Ducati like never before."[/font][/font]

[font="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"][font="arial, sans-serif"][/font][/font]

[font="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"][font="arial, sans-serif"]Not in qualifying though, where Valentino is still significantly slower with the Ducati, than he was on the M1.[/font][/font]

 

[Keshav]

Sounds like an excuse to me....



I'd say he's under performing....previous race result can be excused but this one...not really....

Strangely Spies was the rider we saw almost no coverage of during this race - so it's really hard

for me to form an opinion on what he did or didn't do. He did admit in a pre-race interview that

the season thus far has affected his confidence - and for the iron man from Texas to even admit

that is saying a lot.



As has been stated earlier on lack of funds at Yamaha must necessarily be of consequence

development-wise and said development for the Pieman's bike will less than that of his

teammate who himself is struggling this year.

 

[Keshav]

. I think I rode the Ducati like never before[/i]."[/font][/font]

Can't argue with that. Still minus the screw-up by MS - Rossi would still only have placed

a distant 5th. Rossi did look strong tho when dicing with Dovi.

 

[J4rn0]

Can't argue with that. Still minus the screw-up by MS - Rossi would still only have placed

a distant 5th. Rossi did look strong tho when dicing with Dovi.

No doubt -- but the same performance that gave Rossi a 3rd (and as you say should have given him a 'distant fifth'), would have won last year's race by a good margin... This gives you a better appreciation of the actual potential of a fit Rossi on the Ducati, and also of how much the Hondas have raised the stakes.

Probably the Le Mans track, with so many hard accelerations out of tight corners, magnified Honda's current advantage -- still it's a reality.

 

[Goatboy]

A little clearer:

From Dovi's onboard you can see that the circled yellow flag was the first along the straight (see pidgeon's pic).

 

[Arrabbiata1]

.

Probably the Le Mans track, with so many hard accelerations out of tight corners, magnified Honda's current advantage -- still it's a reality.

My perception was that the Yamaha's seem to punch out of a corner quite well, while the Honda's exploit the top end power advantage in the straight line stakes. There's clearly nothing wrong with the top end of those Desmo's either. We'll get a better idea of the relative speeds and acceleration come next race at Catalunya. Crucially the Yamaha is clearly still the most agile machine out there.

 

[renjith_varma]

I give up. Your insistence on being obtuse, and your non-sequitur reasoning combined with the way you gloss over

everything you don't understand with ad hominen nonsense makes you not worth dialoging with. One could scoop

out your brain and the mouth would still be flapping, making as much sense as it ever has.



Unlike say, Jumkie - I don't feel it's worth the effort to do a long search through all your posts to point out all the fallacious

prattle you have spouted on this forum. You're constitutionally incapable of acknowledging how crushingly ill-informed and counter-intuitive you are on just about every topic you have taken part in.

I AM REPEATING THE QUESTION. ANSWER THE QUESTION AND DON"T SIDESTEP WITH SOME JARGON AND VITRIOL.



Please answer whether you see double standards in the following

1. Criticizing VR on his Qatar lap1-corner1 move

2. Criticizing Sic for a far more innocent move on Stoner last race 2nd corner

3. Brush off the move by JL on lap2 as something due to race chaos.





This is exactly what I have seen you do before when someone exposes your stupid arguments and double standards. You are one of the dumbest old farts I have seen in the forum (including Barry) incapable of reasoning in a proper way.

Unlike say, Jumkie - I don't feel it's worth the effort to do a long search through all your posts to point out all the fallacious

prattle you have spouted on this forum

May be because Jumkie isn't as thick headed as you and doesn't normally end up in situations with foot in mouth just like you have.

 

[rossiofsky]

Read the preceding posts to yours - it's already been mentioned. I don't understand why people post on threads that they can't be bothered to read.



Like I said this was picked up immediately on Eurosport whilst the BBC commentary remained completely oblivious. This is precisely why I can't watch live race coverage since Eurosport lost the rights.

I usually watch both coverages, and sometimes see the opposite of this, like when in last gp, bbc guys immediatly saw and reported the Simoncelli's crash, it took ES guys almost a minute to see the slowmotions and know about Sic's crash. but i see most English languge people prefer eurosport coverage. i like the bbc for their pre and after race interviews and especially that it's live and without any ad.

 

[Keshav]

No doubt -- but the same performance that gave Rossi a 3rd (and as you say should have given him a 'distant fifth'), would have won last year's race by a good margin... This gives you a better appreciation of the actual potential of a fit Rossi on the Ducati, and also of how much the Hondas have raised the stakes.

Probably the Le Mans track, with so many hard accelerations out of tight corners, magnified Honda's current advantage -- still it's a reality.

We're on the same page. I was impressed by Rossi's performance.

 

[#22]

Thanks goatboy, proves my point. It was Dovi passing Rossi NOT the other way around