Le - Mans Race Thread

[marcocelli]

What race were you watching? How could marco have lost the "braking contest" when he ended up in front? Dan let off the brakes and stood the bike up mid corner cliping the rear of marco. Had dani have stayed on his line there might not have been a crash. Now the question is, why did dani stand his bike up. These are the answers needed BEFORE dishing out punishments.

I'm glad you could see this too. If Dani continued the corner on the line he initially had taken there wouldn't have been an incident. They approached the corner with simmoncelli on the outside and he tried to continue through the corner on the outside. It's called racing. By far less questionable than some of the moves I enjoyed watching rossi put on gibernau in that fabulous season (2002 I think??) which was one of my most memorable. I really feel for Dani as I'd like to see him win a championship, I also feel for Marco who is excluded from the J.LO's diva gang and feeling his/her? wrath.

 

[Pigeon]

a picture added still a tough call

http://www.powerslide.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=14006&view=findpost&p=279200

 

[marcocelli]

Pedrosa and Simoncelli approached the turn side-by-side. Being on the inside meant Pedrosa had to brake earlier to make the apex; at tip in, Pedrosa's visual path to the apex was clear and he could not have known that Simoncelli had decided he was going to sweep in from the right at high speed. Since Pedrosa was committed and in a full lean, by the time he saw Simoncelli coming in he had to sit up to brake (basically doing what you're suggesting, "give up the fight"). But since Simoncelli did not give Pedrosa enough room, Pedrosa couldn't stand it up and slow down fast enough.



The line between racing incident and illegal contact is one of intention, and since Simoncelli approached the apex from the outside of Pedrosa, he could see what Pedrosa was doing but not the other way around, and so it should have been Simoncelli who ceded the apex to Pedrosa.

An ex-GP rider (parish) said it was to hard to call and thinks it was unfair, yet there are people on this forum who see things much clearer than him. Wasted talent here. lol.

I wont knock anybodies opinion and will hold my own opinion but us mere armchair racers hold opinions that are unfounded without any professional insight. This has not been the best topic to comment on in my first visit so I hope next time I comment it will be on something a little less controversial.

 

[Keshav]

Then do you consider Lorenzo's move today potentially dangerous?







Do you mean if JL made the pass once the race is set (say after the first lap), then you wouls consider it dangerous? If the other rider not ending up on the ground is your criteria for dangerous riding, I remember you raising a lot of cries about Rossi's riding in Motegi 2010. There also, no one hit the ground. Then why the hue and cry?





I think my analogy is every bit as valid as your virgin analogy. I don't know what you mean by non-linear thinking there.



With all due respect, I am not sure I want to believe your claim to be the apostle of racing since you did what - Participate in some club racing?. You claimed to be a photographer and got even the basics wrong. So I will take your self-proclaimed status as a racer also with a pinch of salt.

All race moves are potentially dangerous. Some are quantitatively more so. They all have a degree of risk. Some risks are good risks and some are foolish. When a rider makes a foolish move that does not end in tears - it doesn't make him a safe rider - it makes him lucky. That you cannot differentiate between luck and talent is a good indicator of your neophyte status as an observer of racing.



You haven't been around here long. There have been photos from my races posted all over this site, including I believe a copy of the 1988 promotional poster for the AMA-CCS race at Loudon, when you were what... 2 years old?

I Have no ecclesiastic aspirations; I mostly try to make points based on long time observation of the sport. You brought up the racing thing. Still... anyone who's been even following racing more than a few years would call into question some of the foolish assertions you have made since landing here at Powerslide.



As to photography - I invite you to come by my place anytime and see my portfolio, including stuff I shot for American Photographer, Car and Driver and Penthouse magazine.



Oh... and if required I can even provide a copy of my birth certificate.



So, what bonafides do you bring to the table?



You really need to shut up and learn to listen. But I doubt you will. You're one of those people who has learned too

well the liking for the taste of your own foot in your mouth.

 

[Arrabbiata1]

San Carlo should give Aoyama the factory bike going on those results.

HRC may very well do that given todays race!

 

[beefsupreme]

An ex-GP rider (parish) said it was to hard to call and thinks it was unfair, yet there are people on this forum who see things much clearer than him.

There is usually no consensus among "experts", so take it easy with the browbeating. A current GP rider (Rossi), said Simoncelli "didn't leave space for Dani. Coming from the outside, maybe he was braking harder, but maybe a bit too aggressive because Dani didn't have any room to do anything."



As many have said, Simoncelli got a ride through and 5th place, so he got off pretty lightly for taking Pedrosa out and breaking his collarbone.

 

[Keshav]

I replayed this a number of times and it is clear that Dani's front tyre is scrubbing Marco's fairing well in front of the footpeg (leaving black marks) - Simoncelli straight out buggered up, it wasn't a clean pass or even an attempt at it. Dani had to stand the bike up, his front tyre was getting pushed around, Simoncelli deserved a penalty as he didn't give Dani an opportunity to do anything other than crash.



Plain stupid riding



Why did "contact sport" Butler punish him though, isn't this what he wanted?

 

[mylexicon]

What's with this Rossi-passing-under-yellow conspiracy?



We are all watching the same feed. During lap 8 (a little over an hour into the BBC broadcast), the TV directors showed a replay of Rossi's pass on Dovi. Rossi clearly passed Dovi in the previous corner when Dovi made a mistake, and he was simply defending his place down the inside into the subsequent corner.



Dovi was actually trying to pass Rossi around the outside, but he gave it up b/c Rossi had track position and b/c the yellow was waving.



Edit: I see Valerian has already pointed out the situation. Missed his post.

 

[chopperman]

Rossi passing under yellows? I think that would have been a very harsh call as they were both almost level and Rossi had lead Dovi out of the previous corner and Dovi had just passed him back.



As for the whole Pedosa/Simo coming together - Jojic made the point that he had complained in the past about Simo's rough house tactics and perhaps the stewards had his card marked so to speak.



Back to the Stoner punch - if that had been a football match, he had been sent off as you mustn't raise your hands.



All in all, quiet an exciting day - the first BSB race was a bit nutty as well - but alas West Ham have been relegated.

See you in the championship next season. Saints fan.

 

[mylexicon]

Disregarding Simoncelli's ill-advised maneuver, it has to be said that this weekend was a smashing success for Honda. As we discussed previously, the four rounds after Qatar are more or less Lorenzo's land, and Casey has generally not fared terribly well. After Jerez, it appeared as though Casey's bad luck and Jorge's excellence would continue, but Honda/Stoner turned the tables this weekend at arguably the most difficult track for Yamaha to be beaten.



If only Simoncelli hadn't mugged Pedrosa (can't be gotten away from, can it?), Stoner would have clawed back even more points.



Silver lining for Dani is that he has 3 weeks to get his collarbone sorted. Starting at Catlunya it's 6 rounds in 8 weeks. If Dani had to get injured, now was the time to do it.

 

[JohnnyKnockdown]

20 frigging pages of posts. Wow how much is Dorna paying Simoncelli to create drama to get us to forget how ...... motogp has become. Outside of Stoner throwing baby tantrums and" Team Ambition Italia" taking out championship leaders there is not much else worth watching.

You can disect Simoncellis pass all day long but the fact does not change that he caused someone else to wreck. So what if he didn't anticipate whatever Pedrosa might do. His job is to anticipate every outcome before making a move. This is why he is riding with the big boys now. He was supposed to have learned this a long time ago. He's dangerous and Dorna needs to sit his ... on the bench for a while until he learns to understand the mental prowess that is required to race at this level

 

[Wander]

^What's up with your signature by the way? False prediction?

 

[Tekniqs]

Not to side track, but what's up with spies?

 

[Talpa]

It was looking like a very boring event until sic that is.........without this it just would have been a Honda 1-4



One thing is for sure, Yamaha is in trouble. At a circuit where they have dominated, both factory efforts looked very poor with even Rossi out-pacing JL.



Spies was nowhere, and even when Sic re-joined he caught and passed him like he was in another category! As he did with Hayden.



Good race between Dovi and Rossi-thankfully at least some action that wasn't so controversial for the weekend.....

 

[renjith_varma]

All race moves are potentially dangerous. Some are quantitatively more so. They all have a degree of risk. Some risks are good risks and some are foolish. When a rider makes a foolish move that does not end in tears - it doesn't make him a safe rider - it makes him lucky. That you cannot differentiate between luck and talent is a good indicator of your neophyte status as an observer of racing.



You haven't been around here long. There have been photos from my races posted all over this site, including I believe a copy of the 1988 promotional poster for the AMA-CCS race at Loudon, when you were what... 2 years old?

I Have no ecclesiastic aspirations; I mostly try to make points based on long time observation of the sport. You brought up the racing thing. Still... anyone who's been even following racing more than a few years would call into question some of the foolish assertions you have made since landing here at Powerslide.



As to photography - I invite you to come by my place anytime and see my portfolio, including stuff I shot for American Photographer, Car and Driver and Penthouse magazine.



Oh... and if required I can even provide a copy of my birth certificate.



So, what bonafides do you bring to the table?



You really need to shut up and learn to listen. But I doubt you will. You're one of those people who has learned too

well the liking for the taste of your own foot in your mouth.

I would hate to go on a personal war against anyone. But you started with the patronizing tone and unwanted advice and an equally stupid analogy. I think it it is so easy when you run out of arguments to just say - I have been here longer than you and know more. I have seen you do that multiple times invalidating every one else's opinion with your more valid experience

And I would like to know what are the foolish assertions in your opinion I have made since I landed at PS?



You would just argue blindly even when the facts are totally against you (Just go through estoril race where you were certain Stoner lost a lot of seconds due to Sic, o the ducati 1000cc test which you still believe as cheating even after the MSMA clarified it) or come up with a lot of melodrama and side step the debate. I am yet to see any good counter point from you. If you want an example look at your reply above - as vague as it can get.



I don't need/wish to bring bonafides to the table as I don't gloat over my life's achievements in an internet forum like you.



You sure seem to be an insecure person as you have to point out your expertise in anything under discussion.

 

[MigsAngel]

Not to side track, but what's up with spies?

Under performing, Expectations were too High, He doesnt speak French, He gets unequal treatment, it was too wet, it was too dry, the bike worked too well, he's not used to the tyres, the bike is the wrong shade of blue, he's waiting for race 2 of the day, his mother forgot to breast feeding before the race (bity), wrong kind of liight on the track, ...

 

[Tekniqs]

Watching speed tv's broadcast.. "lorenTHO, lorentho" the ....? Why's he saying his name that way?

 

[chopperman]

marco's ambition outweighed his talent. Theres a lot of that going around lately

 

[yamaka46]

Watching speed tv's broadcast.. "lorenTHO, lorentho" the ....? Why's he saying his name that way?

because that's how it's pronounced.



Phonetically written : horgay lorentho.



Not all peeps speak phonetically - mostly just the good ol' US of A

 

[Gaz]

Because i would have thought they needed the bikes in the garage before they could examin the bike onboard telemetry?

Rog, the telemetry is transmitted back to the team computers in ‘real time’ and thus all information would have been available immediately were it sought and were the teams legally bound to provide it. The question is was it sought and/or was it provided?

Surprised at that. It does seem like Lorenzo, Stoner and Dovisioso are up each others arses though.

Not surprised with your take, but I see it as the three riders and others trying to improve the sport by voicing their concerns regarding aspect that they feel are important to them. Additionally I get the impression that these three actually do get one with the other and have total mutual respect, not altogether a bad thing

<awaits the usual witty retort>

Well I'm about to watch what Beatty said again ......

Beattie did say as quoted by Carc, although whilst Baird ends up agreeing I get the initial feeling that his opinion differed slightly.

IMO Beattie is not a commentators backside so I take his comments with a grain of salt but I also would expect him to support Simoncelli in that case as Beattie has in the past shown support for Simoncelli and his style/persona.

question for the people who can watch again : was there overtaking between rossi and dovi under yellows?

There was what appeared to be at first watch an overtake by Rossi of Dovisioso under a yellow flag for the fall of Pedrosa (I think it was).

But on replay it was not so clear as the overtake was completed well before he waved Yellow and there was no clear visibility of a stationary yellow on the footage, but if form is a guide the stationary yellow would not have been to far before he waved and I would say the move was complete prior.

Stoner must know that what he did was wrong. De Puniet has already taken responsibility for his incident. Lorenzo and Dovi have smoked the peace pipe. So now there's just one joker out there thinking he has actually done nothing wrong, and that's Marco Simoncelli:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/91427

The guy's in denial.

I am going to be interested watching the reaction to this interview given the nature of vitriolic comments at other times about others allegedly not recognising their failures. Should be good to see consistency.

What race were you watching? How could marco have lost the "braking contest" when he ended up in front? Dan let off the brakes and stood the bike up mid corner cliping the rear of marco. Had dani have stayed on his line there might not have been a crash. Now the question is, why did dani stand his bike up. These are the answers needed BEFORE dishing out punishments.

Rog, it is technical but I do think that Simo had lost the braking duel for two main reasons (indicators)

1. Position oin track placed him in front only on a straight line, but this was into a left hand corner and he was not fully past Pedrosa.

2. If you were to measure the distance I suspect strongly that Simoncelli’s route through that corner would have been around 1 – 3 metres longer than Pedrosa (who was in better track position) and thus it would show that Simoncelli was behind on corner entry.

And to give Simoncelli a ride through? An absolute joke. Was it a hard move? For sure. Was it illegal? I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone outside Race Direction who would say the move was "illegal".

Austin whilst we differ on our take on the incident, cause and blame you highlight the crucial part that needs to be looked at, dissected and discussed – that being that Simoncelli was penalised for an ‘illegal move’ and not for ‘dangerous rideing’ etc.

To me, in racing an ‘illegal move’ would be overtake under Yellow etc as there are clearly defined black&white rules around this, but to call that overtake illegal is a long straw to draw. Certainly it was negligent, dangerous etc but what rule was broken that made it illegal?

It really doesn't matter whether Pedrosa was going to make the corner or not. It was a left-right complex and Simoncelli thought it would be clever to go around the outside to gain the inside for the right flick. It was unprofessional and patently stupid to boot. I only wish Dani hadn't sat up b/c it appears that it may have worsened his injuries while putting the results in the hands of the race stewards.

Lex, agreed I too think the stand up by Dani is what has worsened the injury, but I also feel that he had no option and chose at the last possible second to take evasive action that failed, sadly.









Gaz