Is now the time to march Dani to the gallows?
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Arrabbiata1
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kiddyK
Who, SS56?
Who, SS56?
la-pirata
I agree with you, but that is very different than 'past it'. I haven't been following GP racing for a heck of a long time, so I went back and looked at his lap times for similar (non-Ducati) races over the last five years - he's faster than he used to be. Now there have been improvements in the bikes, but if you look at the same period for other riders, he is definitely in the same ballpark, improvements-wise.
What Mr. Squiggle said in his last post is one big factor, IMO: "<span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;4. His competitors no longer fear him. This was a huge advantage in previous seasons but no longer applies.". He used to be THE guy to beat, but after the disaster of the Ducati, his aura of mystique has been demolished. He also had a (and his first?) major accident in his last year with Yamaha, both of those have contributed to a lack of belief, not to mention two years riding that red nail.
I agree with you, but that is very different than 'past it'. I haven't been following GP racing for a heck of a long time, so I went back and looked at his lap times for similar (non-Ducati) races over the last five years - he's faster than he used to be. Now there have been improvements in the bikes, but if you look at the same period for other riders, he is definitely in the same ballpark, improvements-wise.
What Mr. Squiggle said in his last post is one big factor, IMO: "<span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;4. His competitors no longer fear him. This was a huge advantage in previous seasons but no longer applies.". He used to be THE guy to beat, but after the disaster of the Ducati, his aura of mystique has been demolished. He also had a (and his first?) major accident in his last year with Yamaha, both of those have contributed to a lack of belief, not to mention two years riding that red nail.
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kiddyK
All depends on what you call "ball park" 3-5 10ths is a massive ball park. He is past it compared to what he used to be. That doesnt mean he is ready for the scrap heap, just that he is not a serious title contender.Best of the rest if you will.
All depends on what you call "ball park" 3-5 10ths is a massive ball park. He is past it compared to what he used to be. That doesnt mean he is ready for the scrap heap, just that he is not a serious title contender.Best of the rest if you will.
I'm not a Rossi fanboy, I don't really have a 'favorite' rider - although Pedrosa, Marquez and Lorenzo are exciting to watch. IMO there is a lot of 'rider x is crap' spoken, when the difference between winning and losing, apart from straight talent, can be half a pound of pressure in a tyre or a tooth's difference in the gearbox and a tenth of a second a lap. The Margin between Rossi and Jorge has been around 12 seconds at the end of the race in a number of races this year - so under half a second a lap. At Aragon, he was 11.5 seconds behind Jorge after 2535 seconds over 116795M - that's a tiny margin, in the overall scheme of things and the closest anyone else was to the World Champion. But, it isn't good enough, at this level, I understand that.
No doubt Rossi's team is experienced and those sorts of basic errors aren't what is causing his lack of form - and that's what it is, IMO, a lack of form, not a wash-up. Whether he can lift his game after a .... last year at Yamaha and two non-productive years at Ducati is to be seen. I will cut him slack for one season to get his head straight and to come to grips with the new M1, but if he fails to deliver next season, I will concur, it's time to arrest the downward spiral and look to sitting by the pool and making bambinas (or oiling up his latest toy-boy, depending on which rumours you follow).
He is behind his teammate on the same equipment, but that teammate has had an unbroken run on the M1 - and hasn't had his confidence shattered (yet!) and Rossi is still circulating within a few tenths towards the ends of races. That says he still has ability, but something is holding him back - or that Jorge is riding his socks off and Rossi is only riding at 99% - I don't know, I'm not privy to the sensor tale-of-the-tape. I firmly believe Rossi is still a better rider than Dani Pedrosa and that much of the current success of HRC is down to their bike. Change that equation and Rossi could well be in the top two, instead of the top five.
Just as I believe we still need to wait one more season to see the real class of Crutchlow, Bradl, Bautista and Smith, I think there is still one more season to really see the actual form of Rossi - because his class is undeniable.
No doubt Rossi's team is experienced and those sorts of basic errors aren't what is causing his lack of form - and that's what it is, IMO, a lack of form, not a wash-up. Whether he can lift his game after a .... last year at Yamaha and two non-productive years at Ducati is to be seen. I will cut him slack for one season to get his head straight and to come to grips with the new M1, but if he fails to deliver next season, I will concur, it's time to arrest the downward spiral and look to sitting by the pool and making bambinas (or oiling up his latest toy-boy, depending on which rumours you follow).
He is behind his teammate on the same equipment, but that teammate has had an unbroken run on the M1 - and hasn't had his confidence shattered (yet!) and Rossi is still circulating within a few tenths towards the ends of races. That says he still has ability, but something is holding him back - or that Jorge is riding his socks off and Rossi is only riding at 99% - I don't know, I'm not privy to the sensor tale-of-the-tape. I firmly believe Rossi is still a better rider than Dani Pedrosa and that much of the current success of HRC is down to their bike. Change that equation and Rossi could well be in the top two, instead of the top five.
Just as I believe we still need to wait one more season to see the real class of Crutchlow, Bradl, Bautista and Smith, I think there is still one more season to really see the actual form of Rossi - because his class is undeniable.
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kiddyK
Good post. It can be hard for people to accept that the ranking of riders is not constant over time. Rossi was the best of the field for a long period, but I believe that period ended in 2006/2007. Others may hold that it was 2010. Some bought into the all that greatest of all time crap, leading to cognitive dissonance when Rossi was overhadowed by others.
I disagree with the excuses. If is really the case that he's still not comfortable with what is without a doubt one of the 2 best bikes out there 14 races into the season, and after having spend so many years on essentially the same bike before, he has no place occupying that seat. What do you mean, Lorenzo has not had his confidence shattered like Rossi? Because of his dismal stint at Ducati?
You can count differences seconds and compare it to total race time, but that does not change things in any way. For this sport, it is not a tiny margin, it is a an unacceptably large gap.
Good post. It can be hard for people to accept that the ranking of riders is not constant over time. Rossi was the best of the field for a long period, but I believe that period ended in 2006/2007. Others may hold that it was 2010. Some bought into the all that greatest of all time crap, leading to cognitive dissonance when Rossi was overhadowed by others.
I disagree with the excuses. If is really the case that he's still not comfortable with what is without a doubt one of the 2 best bikes out there 14 races into the season, and after having spend so many years on essentially the same bike before, he has no place occupying that seat. What do you mean, Lorenzo has not had his confidence shattered like Rossi? Because of his dismal stint at Ducati?
You can count differences seconds and compare it to total race time, but that does not change things in any way. For this sport, it is not a tiny margin, it is a an unacceptably large gap.
Yes, that and the broken leg and shoulder.
Lorenzo had a couple of bad crashes a few years ago, from what I've read, but he's been the number one Spanish and Yamaha rider since his second year at Yamaha and hasn't had anything like the problems Spies and Rossi have had, to make him question his place in the overall GP hierarchy.
He's the current WC on a bike he has been the main focus of for at least two years in a team that adores him. He is Yamaha's #1 worldwide. In Indonesia he is a rock star, he is everywhere (VR46 is very popular as well), but for every yellow paintjob there are 5 in Fiat/Yamaha colours and Jorge is on poster form in every little garage on every street corner. We are going back to Indonesia in late November and Philippines in Dec so I will get an idea whether those two massive Yamaha/Honda markets are still dominated by Jorge or whether they have a bunch of VR stuff as well.
Actually, I guess people at the Malaysian GP will have a better idea - it will be similar in Malaysia.
Lorenzo had a couple of bad crashes a few years ago, from what I've read, but he's been the number one Spanish and Yamaha rider since his second year at Yamaha and hasn't had anything like the problems Spies and Rossi have had, to make him question his place in the overall GP hierarchy.
He's the current WC on a bike he has been the main focus of for at least two years in a team that adores him. He is Yamaha's #1 worldwide. In Indonesia he is a rock star, he is everywhere (VR46 is very popular as well), but for every yellow paintjob there are 5 in Fiat/Yamaha colours and Jorge is on poster form in every little garage on every street corner. We are going back to Indonesia in late November and Philippines in Dec so I will get an idea whether those two massive Yamaha/Honda markets are still dominated by Jorge or whether they have a bunch of VR stuff as well.
Actually, I guess people at the Malaysian GP will have a better idea - it will be similar in Malaysia.
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kiddyK
Staying upright and uninjured is the responsibility of the rider, Its part of the greatness Some of it is luck, some of it skill. Rossi enjoyed a remarkable time frame in the 2000's with little to no injuries, and became a legend because of it. I think there are numerous reasons for Rossi's lack of performance. Mentally, you have Marco,the money, and the memories of a badly broken leg and a dinged shoulder. Physically, all it takes is for your body to lose a fraction of whatever it was that made you great and you drop a tier.. Rossi is simply not mentally or physically what he was 5 years ago.
Staying upright and uninjured is the responsibility of the rider, Its part of the greatness Some of it is luck, some of it skill. Rossi enjoyed a remarkable time frame in the 2000's with little to no injuries, and became a legend because of it. I think there are numerous reasons for Rossi's lack of performance. Mentally, you have Marco,the money, and the memories of a badly broken leg and a dinged shoulder. Physically, all it takes is for your body to lose a fraction of whatever it was that made you great and you drop a tier.. Rossi is simply not mentally or physically what he was 5 years ago.
Arrabbiata1
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povol
Plus the huge comparative advantage in machinery and tyres, in particular during 2002 and 2003. In addition to that, although Rossi afficionados detest hearing it, the relative lack of competition.
Plus the huge comparative advantage in machinery and tyres, in particular during 2002 and 2003. In addition to that, although Rossi afficionados detest hearing it, the relative lack of competition.
Arrabbiata1
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Talpa
It seems that the other Doctor has been struck off
It seems that the other Doctor has been struck off
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Just when you think Pedro is looking mediocre, he goes and pulls off a performance like today. To bad he always seems to have problems he can't over come.
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kiddyK
2008: multiple vicious highsides and other crashes. Broken right leg, both ankles, snapped liagments, broken bones in his feet. Extensive wheelchair time. Google jorge lorenzo 2008 crash, click pictures.
2009: multiple crashes. more broken bones in his feat, more damage to both ankels, damaged collarbone
2010: pre-season crash. broken bones in his hand.
2011: massive crashes at Silverstone and Philip Island. Loses part of his finger. Google jorge lorenzo philip island crash, click pictures (if you can stomach it)
You are severely underestimating Rossi's popularity. His fans have been utterly dominating the motogp landscape for years and even now, he is still more popular worldwide than Lorenzo.
Edit: other than that, are you trying to say that it's excusable to have bad results if you have had a lot of bad results before?
2008: multiple vicious highsides and other crashes. Broken right leg, both ankles, snapped liagments, broken bones in his feet. Extensive wheelchair time. Google jorge lorenzo 2008 crash, click pictures.
2009: multiple crashes. more broken bones in his feat, more damage to both ankels, damaged collarbone
2010: pre-season crash. broken bones in his hand.
2011: massive crashes at Silverstone and Philip Island. Loses part of his finger. Google jorge lorenzo philip island crash, click pictures (if you can stomach it)
You are severely underestimating Rossi's popularity. His fans have been utterly dominating the motogp landscape for years and even now, he is still more popular worldwide than Lorenzo.
Edit: other than that, are you trying to say that it's excusable to have bad results if you have had a lot of bad results before?
barbedwirebiker
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stiefel
Just wanna say Lorenzo skirted out at Philip Island 2011, its a little bit of your finger, championship was still open iirc, ......
Just wanna say Lorenzo skirted out at Philip Island 2011, its a little bit of your finger, championship was still open iirc, ......
stiefel
2008: those broken legs and ankles and snapped ligaments were so bad he managed to qualify and race on them, and place 4th. Maybe you exaggerated a little? Fractures, not breaks. Chipped ankle bone, not broken. Extensive wheelchair time? Between races? I downplayed the extent of his injuries, but you have blown them out of proportion. I wasn't saying he hadn't hurt himself, but that hurting himself didn't seem to have left any lasting mental scars.
He went from the race in China to race and place well in the next race, crashes forced him out of Italy and Catalunya, but he was back for the British and Dutch GPs.
And no, I am not underestimating Rossi's popularity - I was specifically speaking of (and I do believe I explicitly said) Indonesia and Philippines - where Yamaha and Honda have major manufacturing plants and small bikes are predominant methods of transport for under-25s. Indonesia makes more than 1.5M bikes for Yamaha a year. It is now the largest brand in the fourth most-populated country in the world and the worlds 3rd largest motorcycle market after China and India. In fact, the six largest motorcycle markets are all in Asia - in order: China, India, Indonesia, Vietnam, Bangladesh, Philippines and accounts for 4/5ths of all motorcycle sales worldwide. The next largest outside Asia is Brazil. Indonesia sells 4M units domestically. So, the popularity of Lorenzo is intrinsic to the rise from second to first place in Indonesia. That has happened since 2011, where they were 2nd after Honda.
You have a typically euro-centric view of motorcycling. You see a sea of yellow at a race meeting and base your views on that. But 4M new bikes sold every year in a single country says that those days are over for the motorcycle manufacturers. Sure they probably make as much profit of one R1 as they do on 50 150 Bison or 150 Ixions in Indonesia, but the fact is, they sell 1.5M Bison and Ixion to less than 10,000 R1s. The whole North American market for Yamaha was 71,000 units in 2012, the EU was less than 60,000 units. Do you think Yamaha cares more about the EU or Asia?
2008: those broken legs and ankles and snapped ligaments were so bad he managed to qualify and race on them, and place 4th. Maybe you exaggerated a little? Fractures, not breaks. Chipped ankle bone, not broken. Extensive wheelchair time? Between races? I downplayed the extent of his injuries, but you have blown them out of proportion. I wasn't saying he hadn't hurt himself, but that hurting himself didn't seem to have left any lasting mental scars.
He went from the race in China to race and place well in the next race, crashes forced him out of Italy and Catalunya, but he was back for the British and Dutch GPs.
And no, I am not underestimating Rossi's popularity - I was specifically speaking of (and I do believe I explicitly said) Indonesia and Philippines - where Yamaha and Honda have major manufacturing plants and small bikes are predominant methods of transport for under-25s. Indonesia makes more than 1.5M bikes for Yamaha a year. It is now the largest brand in the fourth most-populated country in the world and the worlds 3rd largest motorcycle market after China and India. In fact, the six largest motorcycle markets are all in Asia - in order: China, India, Indonesia, Vietnam, Bangladesh, Philippines and accounts for 4/5ths of all motorcycle sales worldwide. The next largest outside Asia is Brazil. Indonesia sells 4M units domestically. So, the popularity of Lorenzo is intrinsic to the rise from second to first place in Indonesia. That has happened since 2011, where they were 2nd after Honda.
You have a typically euro-centric view of motorcycling. You see a sea of yellow at a race meeting and base your views on that. But 4M new bikes sold every year in a single country says that those days are over for the motorcycle manufacturers. Sure they probably make as much profit of one R1 as they do on 50 150 Bison or 150 Ixions in Indonesia, but the fact is, they sell 1.5M Bison and Ixion to less than 10,000 R1s. The whole North American market for Yamaha was 71,000 units in 2012, the EU was less than 60,000 units. Do you think Yamaha cares more about the EU or Asia?
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kiddyK
Exactly how is him recovering quickly and being able to perform helping your argument that Rossi can be excused because of a crash he suffered in 2010? Being able to mentally overcome injury is part of the sport.kiddyK
There is no exaggeration there at all. None. Those are simply the events that took place. But if you think that, from what you've read (post 351), you know better, that's fine.
Exactly how is him recovering quickly and being able to perform helping your argument that Rossi can be excused because of a crash he suffered in 2010? Being able to mentally overcome injury is part of the sport.kiddyK
Impressive. Just to clarify, why are specifically Indonesia and the Philipines relevant to Rossi's confidence?
