Interesting Read: Rookies, TC, 800s, fuel

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 28 2008, 12:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The riders using full throttle more of the time supports the idea of better handling, more grip, less power. The rider was not completely controlling the throttle in 2004 and nobody minded, i do not think that the intrusive rider aids have had a significant impact on the racing or results from 06-07 or onwards.
Not true. What makes you think that fly by wire throttles appeared in 2004?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 28 2008, 12:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think we can both agree however that the new fuel limit has increased the dependance on fuel mappaing and efficiency software. Many people consider this a very bad thing but i disagree. Firstly because i am interested in the battle of technology and development in motogp at the moment, i think its facinating. Also i think fuel limit is a good place to put the technical focus because it encourages the factories to concentrate on conservation, and efficiency, leading them to develop technologies that they can use throughout their ranges.
Sorry, but artificially limiting races to 21 litres does not bring about technology that decreases fuel consumption on road bikes. Even superbikes manage 50mpg+ which is better then almost all cars, so why would it be useful anyway. If you consider the cost of transporting the equipment to races then even if the bikes did 1mpg it would be irrelevant in the greater scheme of things.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 28 2008, 12:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Lastly I ask that if the fuel limit were increased beyond a critical level, what would change? I would speculate that the technical focus will simply move to another atribute of the bikes, which could eaily be as hard if not harder to achieve the parity that people are asking for. The easiest example of this would be that if the fuel limit were removed we'd find ourselfes watching a war to gain extra RPM. I would be very surprised to see any sort of level playing field in this area and it would without a doubt cost the factories huge amounts of money to develop the technology, most of which they couldn't sell anyway.
The technical focus may well move elsewhere, and that might actually bring beneficial developments. The fuel limit is artificial, is costing the manufacturers loads of cash and doesn't give them technology which they can sell. I'd rather see a rev limit than the fuel limit.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Apr 28 2008, 10:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Not true. What makes you think that fly by wire throttles appeared in 2004?

I remember these things:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aprilia_RS3_Cube

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Apr 28 2008, 01:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I remember these things:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aprilia_RS3_Cube
Hmmm,

That worked real well didn't it. Good job the software keeps advancing....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Apr 28 2008, 07:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I remember these things:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aprilia_RS3_Cube
Didn't Honda's semielectronic throttle come out around then as well (if we restrict ourselves to bikes that were successful at things other than sounding cool)?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mattsteg @ Apr 28 2008, 11:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Didn't Honda's semielectronic throttle come out around then as well (if we restrict ourselves to bikes that were successful at things other than sounding cool)?


yes


and


that sums up the aprillias well

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Apr 28 2008, 01:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Sorry, but artificially limiting races to 21 litres does not bring about technology that decreases fuel consumption on road bikes. Even superbikes manage 50mpg+ which is better then almost all cars, so why would it be useful anyway. If you consider the cost of transporting the equipment to races then even if the bikes did 1mpg it would be irrelevant in the greater scheme of things.

The fact that bikes are already efficient doesn't mean that improvement isn't welcome. Furthermore i'm not suggesting that a fuel limit saves the world, because obviously motor racing does the opposite. My point is that technical focus on efficiency is more relevant than a focus on maximum power.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Apr 28 2008, 01:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The technical focus may well move elsewhere, and that might actually bring beneficial developments. The fuel limit is artificial, is costing the manufacturers loads of cash and doesn't give them technology which they can sell. I'd rather see a rev limit than the fuel limit.

I did mention that my rev limit example what you imagine the results of it to be may be totally different, but the point is that being so vocal about the rules defficiencies is not so productive when there is no evidence to suggest that any alternative will be benificail.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Apr 28 2008, 01:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Not true. What makes you think that fly by wire throttles appeared in 2004?

"Although Honda did not say it at the time, they had moved away from a simple cable throttle system at the end of 2002" - Honda

"To try to reduce some of the rear wheel hop problems that were so evident at motegi the year before, a small servo motor was fitted to one of the flat side injector bodies. Depending on the gear selected, the throttle position and the engines revs, this stepper motor would hold open the throttle ever so slightly" - Kawasaki 2003

"That motorcycle, the XRE-03 also came with a full electronic package, including ride by wire throttle" - Suzuki 2003

"they most certainly changed to a full webber marelli system at Le Mans 2004. This system has gone on to become the definitive ride by wire system" - Yamaha 2004

" Aprilia were very proud of this system, developed with help from three northern italian universities, because with its compact design and the manner in which it was quickly adapted to become the first true ride by wire system fitted to a motogp racing motorcycle" - Aprilia 2002

Enough?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Apr 28 2008, 02:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I remember these things:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aprilia_RS3_Cube
man i saw laconi struggle with that beast at donny in 02. .... that bike was a monster, sounded like a thunder storm... ahh good memory's

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Apr 28 2008, 01:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>man i saw laconi struggle with that beast at donny in 02. .... that bike was a monster, sounded like a thunder storm... ahh good memory's

nothing like the POS electric motor bikes we have now a Rog.

Does GPS play a roll on GP bikes and electronics? "Turn right in 400 feet"? Seriously though, does it?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SackWack @ Apr 28 2008, 03:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Does GPS play a roll on GP bikes and electronics? "Turn right in 400 feet"? Seriously though, does it?
I think the answer to that is yes. Things like per-corner engine mapping, TC-settings, etc.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mattsteg @ Apr 28 2008, 10:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think the answer to that is yes. Things like per-corner engine mapping, TC-settings, etc.
i thought satellites plot within 3 feet, not quite enough for motogp seriously tho, that quite a scary thought, vehicles directed from space.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Apr 28 2008, 03:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>i thought satellites plot within 3 feet, not quite enough for motogp seriously tho, that quite a scary thought, vehicles directed from space. Plenty close enough to figure out what general part of the track they're on, particularly when combined with other telemetry.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 28 2008, 06:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>My point is that technical focus on efficiency is more relevant than a focus on maximum power.

surely, if capacity remains the same, then the engine that produces the most power will also be the most efficient one?
IMO the factories should be looking to things such as friction reduction in the engine internals and drivetrains. possibly one of the worst culprits AFAIK is the humble chain/sprocket combo. a better power transmission system with less power robbing friction would improve efficiency and be a very transferable improvement to most if not all bikes. if the fuel limit was intended to make manufacturers
go along these lines and not just write more updates to the software then i am for it, but thats not whats really happening now is it?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigAl @ Apr 28 2008, 10:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>surely, if capacity remains the same, then the engine that produces the most power will also be the most efficient one?

Not if it runs out of fuel.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 28 2008, 07:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>"Although Honda did not say it at the time, they had moved away from a simple cable throttle system at the end of 2002" - Honda
I googled and couldn't find any evidence for your quote.
I did find this - not really fly-by-wire is it?
"(In 2004) HRC introduced the Honda Intelligent Throttle Control System, a semimechanical/electronic forerunner to the now-common fly-by-wire throttle systems on MotoGP bikes. The twist-grip throttle cables rotated a throttle linkage shaft attached to a tiny planetary gear setup controlled by an ECU-actuated servo motor. The system would modify the amount of throttle-valve movement according to the gear selected, preventing excessive power in the lower gears. However, it was widely rumored that many of the Honda riders disliked the system, complaining that it affected the engine power too much."

LINK

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 28 2008, 07:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>"To try to reduce some of the rear wheel hop problems that were so evident at motegi the year before, a small servo motor was fitted to one of the flat side injector bodies. Depending on the gear selected, the throttle position and the engines revs, this stepper motor would hold open the throttle ever so slightly" - Kawasaki 2003
Again not really fly-by-wire, ie full electronic control of 2 or more throttle plates is it? I never said that simple cables were all that was around in 2004.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 28 2008, 07:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>"That motorcycle, the XRE-03 also came with a full electronic package, including ride by wire throttle" - Suzuki 2003
Can't even find an XRE-03 Suzuki if I google this? The 990 was designated as GSV-R

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 28 2008, 07:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>"they most certainly changed to a full webber marelli system at Le Mans 2004. This system has gone on to become the definitive ride by wire system" - Yamaha 2004
Again, I can't find anything that states this.
I did find this on Yamaha's website though
3199:yamaha.gif]
LINK

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 28 2008, 07:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>" Aprilia were very proud of this system, developed with help from three northern italian universities, because with its compact design and the manner in which it was quickly adapted to become the first true ride by wire system fitted to a motogp racing motorcycle" - Aprilia 2002
Yep, I'd forgotten the Cube, but as Edwards said the response from its fly-by-wire throttle system was "unpredictable", so not quite up to todays standards.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 28 2008, 06:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The fact that bikes are already efficient doesn't mean that improvement isn't welcome. Furthermore i'm not suggesting that a fuel limit saves the world, because obviously motor racing does the opposite. My point is that technical focus on efficiency is more relevant than a focus on maximum power.
The focus on efficiency forced into Motogp is extremely unlikely to make its way onto production bikes. Bikes are not marketed on their fuel efficiency against one another, so why would the manufacturers bother. Think of the expense of fitting pneumatic valves to road bikes.

Road bikes are, however, marketed on max power - look at the Hyabusa and the Blackbird before it. So what exactly is this focus on fuel efficiency "relevant" to?

The way I look at it - they will allow all these rider aids - traction control, launch control etc for a couple more years then they will ban it. They're not going to bow down to anyone and lose face for the direction they've taken. I don't think Dorna and the FIM quite thought how quickly these rider aids would develop and now they're going to let the manufacturers play with them for a few more years because they've all invested a truckload of money in these technologies.
My bet - 2011 - very limited rider aids (if any).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Son of Doohan @ Apr 29 2008, 12:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The way I look at it - they will allow all these rider aids - traction control, launch control etc for a couple more years then they will ban it. They're not going to bow down to anyone and lose face for the direction they've taken. I don't think Dorna and the FIM quite thought how quickly these rider aids would develop and now they're going to let the manufacturers play with them for a few more years because they've all invested a truckload of money in these technologies.
My bet - 2011 - very limited rider aids (if any).
I agree with you. In my opinion the reason for the argument being so prolonged on internet forums is because to stoner fans the electronic aid contention has become part of the whole dreary stoner vs rossi thing; I think most stoner fans in a dispassionate argument would agree with at least the limitations yamaka has advocated ie no electronic throttle and no gps derived engine mapping, if not no fuel limitation. I can tell you as hopefully a not completely biased stoner fan that it is annoying when people say his motogp championship was entirely due to electronic help, which admittedly is rare on this forum.

The stoner vs rossi thing may become only of historical interest in any case if pedrosa and lorenzo continue in their current vein; I think stoner's title defence is basically over if he doesn't win except by misadventure in china.