Interesting Read: Rookies, TC, 800s, fuel

In the "green" spirit of things now why aren't the bikes running on pollution free ethanol or E85? You want to see power? Sure it is less dense but the fuel capacity could be expanded to suit. Octane rating through the roof. The Indy car series use renewable alcohol fuel and I think it fits into the prototype format perfectly.

Hey, the fans already run on it!!!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Apr 25 2008, 04:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This would imply that (if your statement were true) they knew how to regulate the fuel better with the electronics of pre 2007, than they do with 800s and 2008 electronics.

do you really think that came in 07 !!?? and didn't exist before then!!

http://www.wegotcards.com/cards/rude/holi/......GIF

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Apr 26 2008, 05:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>When was the Marelli system that is currently still in use designed ..?? ....

I think the trouble is that some folk are crying "new" .... but unfortunately its just because its all new to them
The Magneti Marelli Marvel 4 was new for 2005.

Data Sheet (click on electronic control systems, then Marvel 4)

The software programmed on the 2 RISC processors will be under constant development as more/different sensors are added to perform additional tasks. If you check out the description section of the data sheet, MM even offer tailored software.

So to state that because the Marvel 4 has been around with the same physical characteristics since 2005, the design of the system, ie including the software, is unchanged since 2005 just shows a complete lack of understanding as to how such things work.

Perhaps it is all new to you Barry, but this type of stuff is what I get paid to do.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Apr 26 2008, 02:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>do you really think that came in 07 !!?? and didn't exist before then!!
Nope, never said that. I was just pointing out that 20% more capacity does not necessarily mean that significantly more fuel is required.

One of the reasons that the 800s do not use proportionately less fuel than the 990s is because with their lower power output the 800s are using full throttle more of the time for a given circuit.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Apr 25 2008, 10:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>whoahaa !! are you aware the 990 days ended in 06 thats just over a year ago
Your point is logically irrelevant. Although it has been a bit over a year, this does not preclude the logical possibility that the electronic devices on the motogp prototypes have significantly progressed since the inception of the 800cc machines, in comparison to the 990cc predecessors.

Even roadbikes have advanced significantly in two years. The BMW R1200GS now comes with electronic suspension adjustment and traction control, as does the Ducati 1098R, as does the Kawasaki ZX10R. The Honda CBR1000RR has a similar system too...and you're trying to contend that a prototype machine will not have advanced from 2006?

If you believe that the level of electronic devices has not progressed since 2006, then you are in denial.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (L8Braker @ Apr 23 2008, 12:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>When you have to conserve fuel during a race, I think that sucks! Give them enough fcking fuel to go full out the entire race, it racing for fcks sake!
i agree

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RCV600RR @ Apr 27 2008, 02:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Your point is logically irrelevant. Although it has been a bit over a year, this does not preclude the logical possibility that the electronic devices on the motogp prototypes have significantly progressed since the inception of the 800cc machines, in comparison to the 990cc predecessors.

Even roadbikes have advanced significantly in two years. The BMW R1200GS now comes with electronic suspension adjustment and traction control, as does the Ducati 1098R, as does the Kawasaki ZX10R. The Honda CBR1000RR has a similar system too...and you're trying to contend that a prototype machine will not have advanced from 2006?

If you believe that the level of electronic devices has not progressed since 2006, then you are in denial.

How have these electronics devices progressed since 800's came in?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Apr 27 2008, 04:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>How have these electronics devices progressed since 800's came in?

if your asking how?? you aswell as i know that you cant find detailed info on electronics as manufacturers just wouldnt give out these details.

but here:

what will an 800 do? Well it looks at the moment that the bikes spin to somewhere in the region of 20,000 rpm. The older 990's were up to about 18,000. They seem to be making something like 200 - 220bhp peak, maybe 40bhp less than the 990's, and are clearly not a lot slower than the 990's. Even more electronics are involved here, not that the 990's suffered from an absence ofthe stuff, but the 800's will gain even more electronic engine control to tame the postulated peaky power output and make them more user friendly

so thats you wrong again barry the 800's have more electronics than the 990's and they are more complex, id call that progression wouldnt you?

I think its amusing hearing so many people conclude that their apparently superior favorite rider would win without electronics by claiming that motogp is too easy with the rider aids. Also listening to the same people complain that the bikes are too easy to control, while they deny that the 800's are safer than 990's.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jazkat @ Apr 28 2008, 03:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>if your asking how?? you aswell as i know that you cant find detailed info on electronics as manufacturers just wouldnt give out these details.

but here:

what will an 800 do? Well it looks at the moment that the bikes spin to somewhere in the region of 20,000 rpm. The older 990's were up to about 18,000. They seem to be making something like 200 - 220bhp peak, maybe 40bhp less than the 990's, and are clearly not a lot slower than the 990's. Even more electronics are involved here, not that the 990's suffered from an absence ofthe stuff, but the 800's will gain even more electronic engine control to tame the postulated peaky power output and make them more user friendly

so thats you wrong again barry the 800's have more electronics than the 990's and they are more complex, id call that progression wouldnt you?

One parameter set to raise the rev limiter

and a few extra points on a performance curve perhaps??

But still running the same electronics.

The program may have changed but the electronics have been capable doing what is required of an 800 for near 20 years!! .... its just thst it gets cheaper to bulid them usually.

I'm entrigued ... just what are the "more electronics" you believe they have?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Apr 28 2008, 01:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>One parameter set to raise the rev limiter

and a few extra points on a performance curve perhaps??

But still running the same electronics.

The program may have changed but the electronics have been capable doing what is required of an 800 for near 20 years!! .... its just thst it gets cheaper to bulid them usually.

Just what are the more electronics you believe they have?
More electronic control does not require more hardware. Remember that when electronics are referred to in this context, it is the electronic system being discussed, ie software controlling hardware.

As I already pointed out the hardware of the MM Marvel 4 was designed in 2005. The software determines what can be achieved with that hardware and that is most definitely not unchanged since 2005.

Just because a chip was developed 20 years ago it does not follow that the complexity of the software written to run on that chip will remain unchanged over that time. Nor that what can be achieved with hardware available years ago will stand still.

If you honestly believe that the difference between the electronic system on the 990s and that on the 800s can be boiled down to "One parameter set to raise the rev limiter and a few extra points on a performance curve perhaps??" then you're seriously deluded.

Here's what Suzuki have to say about their 08 bike:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>The package of greatly updated Mitsubishi ECU and 2008 GSV-R engine, with lower fuel consumption than 2007, should combine to provide higher engine performance and increased usability.
LINK

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Apr 28 2008, 12:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If you honestly believe that the difference between the electronic system on the 990s and that on the 800s can be boiled down to "One parameter set to raise the rev limiter and a few extra points on a performance curve perhaps??" then you're seriously deluded.

Then what are they?? ...... to put it all into perspective ....

Did the sensors need to be different?

Did they add any new sensors ... specific to 800's?

The ECU? was some newfangled 800cc dedicated ECU required?

the wires? can 800's run on thinner wires?


Remembering its all like one big lego set .....

Get specific with what you are saying is different ..... but remember many "in the know" have readily stated that their has been little change in the "electronics" .... eg. thats what the whole Ryder article has underlying its argument on the rookies and changes from 990's.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Apr 28 2008, 05:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Then what are they?? ...... to put it all into perspective ....

Did the sensors need to be different?
Did they add any new sensors ... specific to 800's?
The ECU? was some newfangled 800cc dedicated ECU required?
the wires? can 800's run on thinner wires?
Remembering its all like one big lego set .....
I said the HARDWARE was unchanged. Several times. It would indeed be as useful as a lego set on the bikes if it was just hardware with no software to control it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Apr 28 2008, 05:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Get specific with what you are saying is different .....
<u>SOFTWARE</u>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Apr 28 2008, 05:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>but remember many "in the know" have readily stated that their has been little change in the "electronics" .... eg. thats what the whole Ryder article has underlying its argument on the rookies and changes from 990's.
The Ryder article states nothing of the sort. Please quote the paragraph which you feel states that the electronics are hardly any different. It does however state, quite correctly IMO, that the biggest cause of additional electronic control systems is the fuel limit. Which needs getting rid of.

Watch BSB from last weekend, WSS and WSBK from this weekend. Excellent close racing and no ridiculous fuel limit.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Apr 28 2008, 05:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Then what are they?? ...... to put it all into perspective ....

Did the sensors need to be different?

Did they add any new sensors ... specific to 800's?

The ECU? was some newfangled 800cc dedicated ECU required?

the wires? can 800's run on thinner wires?


Remembering its all like one big lego set .....

Get specific with what you are saying is different ..... but remember many "in the know" have readily stated that their has been little change in the "electronics" .... eg. thats what the whole Ryder article has underlying its argument on the rookies and changes from 990's.
the whole world and his wife know there is more electronic influence on the 800's than there was on the 990's, we can see that by the way they handle .
why do you continue to ask a question you know full well that no one can answer. this does not prove your point barry.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Apr 28 2008, 09:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>the whole world and his wife know there is more electronic influence on the 800's than there was on the 990's, we can see that by the way they handle .
why do you continue to ask a question you know full well that no one can answer. this does not prove your point barry.

I think barry's argument is that the 800's don't have more intrusive rider aids when compared to the 990's (as so many complain they do). This is supported byy Ryders articule when it suggests that intrusive ryder aids are more significant when you have an excess of power like on a 990, and that the biggest difference engineering wise between the two rule sets has been the fuel limit. But some of you may consider a variable fuel map an intrusive rider aid because it should be the riders job to conserve fuel, not a computer (i.e no fuel injection).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 28 2008, 10:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think barry's argument is that the 800's don't have more intrusive rider aids when compared to the 990's (as so many complain they do). This is supported byy Ryders articule when it suggests that intrusive ryder aids are more significant when you have an excess of power like on a 990, and that the biggest difference engineering wise between the two rule sets has been the fuel limit. But some of you may consider a variable fuel map an intrusive rider aid because it should be the riders job to conserve fuel, not a computer (i.e no fuel injection).
No fuel injection would be silly. This is supposed to be the pinnacle of bike racing. Just get rid of the damned fuel limit.

BTW Ryder's article compared TC on 800s with sticky qualis to 990s on worn tyres, not 800s on worn tyres to 990s on worn tyres. Apples and Oranges there mate. Apparently Rossi's team have been tinkering with the electronics package to get the tyres to last longer, so obviously the development of that side of the electronics hasn't stopped since the move from 990s to 800s.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Apr 28 2008, 11:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>No fuel injection would be silly. This is supposed to be the pinnacle of bike racing. Just get rid of the damned fuel limit.

BTW Ryder's article compared TC on 800s with sticky qualis to 990s on worn tyres, not 800s on worn tyres to 990s on worn tyres. Apples and Oranges there mate. Apparently Rossi's team have been tinkering with the electronics package to get the tyres to last longer, so obviously the development of that side of the electronics hasn't stopped since the move from 990s to 800s.

Yea i agree that the 800's have more than enough power to spin the wheels (particularly on worn tyres) thus the need for intrusive TC remains. But to be more relied upon than with 990's (as many believe), despite superior chassis and tyres combined with less power, i doubt it. Obviously improvements and development are continuous and these systems are improving but i think that TC gets a rep for making the sport boring or taking the rider out of the equation and i believe neither are true.

I'm still unsure how i feel abot the fuel limit, overall i think its a pretty good idea.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 28 2008, 10:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yea i agree that the 800's have more than enough power to spin the wheels (particularly on worn tyres) thus the need for intrusive TC remains. But to be more relied upon than with 990's (as many believe), despite superior chassis and tyres combined with less power, i doubt it. Obviously improvements and development are continuous and these systems are improving but i think that TC gets a rep for making the sport boring or taking the rider out of the equation and i believe neither are true.

I'm still unsure how i feel abot the fuel limit, overall i think its a pretty good idea.
I don't think that it's the TC element of the advanced electronics that's causing the problem. The fact that the rider no longer completely controls the throttle is causing fans of racing to get upset. You also have to remember that the 800s are at full throttle for more of the circuit, so are you sure you need less TC?

Why do you think the fuel limit is a good idea? IMO it spoils the racing and adds loads more complexity to the software controlled electronics, and to what end? From a racing POV it is definitely bad as the bikes get leaned off by the software as the races progress. Hence a procession occurs.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Apr 28 2008, 11:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I don't think that it's the TC element of the advanced electronics that's causing the problem. The fact that the rider no longer completely controls the throttle is causing fans of racing to get upset. You also have to remember that the 800s are at full throttle for more of the circuit, so are you sure you need less TC?

Why do you think the fuel limit is a good idea? IMO it spoils the racing and adds loads more complexity to the software controlled electronics, and to what end? From a racing POV it is definitely bad as the bikes get leaned off by the software as the races progress. Hence a procession occurs.

The riders using full throttle more of the time supports the idea of better handling, more grip, less power. The rider was not completely controlling the throttle in 2004 and nobody minded, i do not think that the intrusive rider aids have had a significant impact on the racing or results from 06-07 or onwards.

I think we can both agree however that the new fuel limit has increased the dependance on fuel mappaing and efficiency software. Many people consider this a very bad thing but i disagree. Firstly because i am interested in the battle of technology and development in motogp at the moment, i think its facinating. Also i think fuel limit is a good place to put the technical focus because it encourages the factories to concentrate on conservation, and efficiency, leading them to develop technologies that they can use throughout their ranges.

Lastly I ask that if the fuel limit were increased beyond a critical level, what would change? I would speculate that the technical focus will simply move to another atribute of the bikes, which could eaily be as hard if not harder to achieve the parity that people are asking for. The easiest example of this would be that if the fuel limit were removed we'd find ourselfes watching a war to gain extra RPM. I would be very surprised to see any sort of level playing field in this area and it would without a doubt cost the factories huge amounts of money to develop the technology, most of which they couldn't sell anyway.