Interesting Read: Rookies, TC, 800s, fuel

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Apr 24 2008, 10:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>... thats the new bikes ..... they take a lot more work to ride well. The 990's well I think you could have afforded to have a few mistakes in setup .... they had power that could be used to mask other areas of defiencies .... but to get more out of a lesser bike ....... thats riding. ...... Pajero!
I hear what your saying and agree that in the "RAW" form the 800s are probably more difficult to ride than the 990cc. But, apparently the electronics have made them much easier -- atleast in the powering out of the corners. So while the bikes have become more technologically advanced, the riding may have become more "dumbed down"


From http://moto-racing.speedtv.com/article/mot...-back-on-jerez/
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Rossi, who has been critical of traction control, believes that the current 800cc Grand Prix bikes have been designed around the current electronics packages and would probably be almost unrideable if they were stripped of the aids, but he and current champion Casey Stoner agree that it would have made better racing to have increased capacity from 990 to 1200cc instead of decreasing it to 800cc. With more capacity, these two and many other current riders argue, the big power bands would have been wide enough to make traction control less important.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Apr 24 2008, 12:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Do you really believe the best riders are not at the front!!?? I disagree.

The why didn't you complain when the 990's where running the electronics ..... and don't give me ........ that they "didn't have as much" ..... that is a laughable proposition.

Again I say that the "naysayers" are just plain pissed because their rider is not at the top anymore ..... why else would be get such ridiculously incrrect arguments about TC and electronics these days??

WRONG
the difference between 06 and now is pretty big the 800's are way more advanced than before, also between 2004 and 2006 there was alot of advances in bike electronics.

2006:
Instead of the previous “2 x 2″ fuel injection system (two throttle plates were controlled by the rider, while the other two were controlled by the engine-management system), improvements to sensors and power of the Magneti Marelli EMS allowed engineers to build a total fly-by-wire throttle-control system-with ALL throttle plates under EMS control.

hmm so not much difference then barry in 2006 taking even more control away from the rider???

some of the bikes werent even using electronic fuel injection until 2003

in 2003 To reduce engine compression braking during corner entry, ECU-controlled solenoid valves bled air past the throttle plates when the system detected rear-wheel lockup.

2004: In an effort to control the ever-increasing power of the RC211V, HRC introduced the Honda Intelligent Throttle Control System, a semimechanical/electronic forerunner to the now-common fly-by-wire throttle systems on MotoGP bikes. The twist-grip throttle cables rotated a throttle linkage shaft attached to a tiny planetary gear setup controlled by an ECU-actuated servo motor. The system would modify the amount of throttle-valve movement according to the gear selected, preventing excessive power in the lower gears. However, it was widely rumored that many of the Honda riders disliked the system.

WOW barry those bikes really sound like the electronics havent evolved at all, when i get my pc back i have a full article from 2001-2007 explaning how much electronics have changed and im going to post it just for you to shut you up once and for all.

these are only a few things i cant find hopefully you should get the idea.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Apr 24 2008, 04:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Do you really believe the best riders are not at the front!!?? I disagree.

How can believe that a kid whose never ridden anything but hotted up weedwackers his entire life is amongst the best riders on this grid?

Winners used to be the best when motogp bikes were the hardest to ride. For much of the last decade that was the only thing they had going for them. Why else would you ride a 500 two-stroke in the 90s if not to prove you were the greatest rider ever?

These new kids are jokers. They have incredible riding skills but their competence on 2 wheels is no where near the skill and competence the old riders had. In fact, because of all the electronics and rules changes, these kids are stuck in arrested development and have been denied the chance to improve.

Take all their cute electro toys away, and you'd find they are like a fish without water. Would you say that about Vale, Loris, Hopper, Nicky or Colin (maybe Melandri, Verme, and Toseland to a lesser extent) if all the switches, monitors, and buttons came off of their bikes?

Let me answer that for you since you seem to have little or no perspective: NO!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Apr 24 2008, 11:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>"Brat Prattle" again ....

You said it was "dumbed down" now ..... in reference to when .... the past ....


well I reckon the six cylinder hondas would have been easier, if you ask me, and I personally would have less trouble with a 500 than these new 800 4 strokes .... with all the high tech setup ..... sure I could ride one .... but I bet I would take ages to really learn how to set one up and ride it to benefit from my setup!! .... thats the new bikes ..... they take a lot more work to ride well. The 990's well I think you could have afforded to have a few mistakes in setup .... they had power that could be used to mask other areas of defiencies .... but to get more out of a lesser bike ....... thats riding. ...... Pajero!


wow....you are truely ....... ........ if you think the 800s are more difficult to ride than the 990s, let alone the 500s...you've proven to all here you know nothing about the sport...i suggest perhaps you take up ballet...

"dumbed down" was in the artical...that i didn't write.
PS: I'd PAY to see you try and rail on a 500 2stroker...just so i can see you launch your dumb ... over the bars

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 24 2008, 08:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>These new kids are jokers. They have incredible riding skills but their competence on 2 wheels is no where near the skill and competence the old riders had. In fact, because of all the electronics and rules changes, these kids are stuck in arrested development and have been denied the chance to improve.

Take all their cute electro toys away, and you'd find they are like a fish without water. Would you say that about Vale, Loris, Hopper, Nicky or Colin (maybe Melandri, Verme, and Toseland to a lesser extent) if all the switches, monitors, and buttons came off of their bikes?

Lorenzo's strongest area this season has been in qualifying, where the bikes run with the TC close to off.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 24 2008, 09:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Lorenzo's strongest area this season has been in qualifying, where the bikes run with the TC close to off.



That's also when they have a MASSIVE amount of grip, so TC isn't even needed.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (phleg @ Apr 24 2008, 02:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>That's also when they have a MASSIVE amount of grip, so TC isn't even needed.
Sounds like a great situation for a 250 rider.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (phleg @ Apr 24 2008, 09:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>That's also when they have a MASSIVE amount of grip, so TC isn't even needed.

This is true, but the grip can't be infinite.

I remember reading in the pre-season for 2007 that KRJR came into the pits and both of his hands were bleeding simply from holding onto his bike. That doesn't sound easy to me!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 24 2008, 09:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This is true, but the grip can't be infinite.

I remember reading in the pre-season for 2007 that KRJR came into the pits and both of his hands were bleeding simply from holding onto his bike. That doesn't sound easy to me!

From what the riders say, it's pretty close to it.

You of all people should know as much as I dislike Lorenzo, I admire his talent. Also, you can hardly draw on a (very)high grip scenario to judge fully. But he has shown in racing conditions he's just as potent.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (phleg @ Apr 24 2008, 09:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>From what the riders say, it's pretty close to it.

You of all people should know as much as I dislike Lorenzo, I admire his talent. Also, you can hardly draw on a (very)high grip scenario to judge fully. But he has shown in racing conditions he's just as potent.

Yea obviously qualifying is an isolated set of circumstances, racing is the real deal. I think the bikes get labeled easy because they are less dangerous. The consequences of making mistakes are far less likely to be crashes and serious injuries nowdays. This would make it easier for riders with less exerience to push to the limit without being scared of the ambulance. To actually get the bikes to go quickly must at least as hard as ever, or the older riders would be walking all over the championship.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 25 2008, 05:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Take all their cute electro toys away, and you'd find they are like a fish without water. Would you say that about Vale, Loris, Hopper, Nicky or Colin (maybe Melandri, Verme, and Toseland to a lesser extent) if all the switches, monitors, and buttons came off of their bikes?

Let me see ... those guys you quoted have ridden with electronic aids since the inception of the 990 era at least, or when they joined the 990 class. Naturally they could still ride ..... but whether they would ride as well as the guys who are less used to electronics aids .... the freshest riders from 250 ...... I would not dare to venture. I suspect though we would see as has happened .... and as has been written in the article ..... the introduction of 800's has brought in a bike less "needy" of electronics aids. So maybe we are seeing what you guys are dreaming about.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Apr 25 2008, 06:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Let me see ... those guys you quoted have ridden with electronic aids since the inception of the 990 era at least, or when they joined the 990 class. Naturally they could still ride ..... but whether they would ride as well as the guys who are less used to electronics aids .... the freshest riders from 250 ...... I would not dare to venture. I suspect though we would see as has happened .... and as has been written in the article ..... the introduction of 800's has brought in a bike less "needy" of electronics aids. So maybe we are seeing what you guys are dreaming about.
Firstly, the electronic aids of today are a far cry from what was going on on the 500 strokers or even the first of the 990s. To state anything different is just trolling.

The article actually states
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>First, a basic truth. Traction control only matters when you don't have enough grip. It mattered a lot with the 990s' excess of power on worn tires, but it doesn't get used at all when an 800 is out on qualifiers thanks to their excess of grip.
Here Ryder is not catagorically stating that 800s need less traction than 990s, rather that an 800 on super-stick qualis needs less traction than a 990 on worn tyres. The two statements are not synonymous, as much as you'd like them to be.

You also state that the 800 needs less electronic aids, (not just traction control) which is actually refuted in the article
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>The vast majority of the work on electronics is currently focussed on fueling, on how to use those 21 liters most efficiently

You also stated in a previous post that 990s must have been detuned in order to have not run out of fuel given 20% more capacity, but only 5% more fuel, but when did you see a 990 run out of fuel on 22 litres? Never. Yet the 800s do it regularly on the slow down lap.

This would imply that (if your statement were true) they knew how to regulate the fuel better with the electronics of pre 2007, than they do with 800s and 2008 electronics.

However fuel usage is actually far more closely related to the power being produced than to the swept volume of the combustion chamber.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Apr 25 2008, 12:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But why do you say this is a recent thing? Read that article again, surely you get it by now ..... Electronics is not a new thing and it can hardly be blamed for a change that you don't like, especially since its logically had less of an affect on smaller less powerful bikes.

I don't get why this myth still persists ..... its so illogical.
It's an interesting point you raise, but you are forgetting a few things in reaching that point.

TC and electronics have significantly advanced from the time of 990s.

Remember that tyre technology has significantly improved from the 990 days, coupled with the fact that we have significantly less horsepower and torque. Of course it's easier to control the 800s.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Apr 25 2008, 04:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Firstly, the electronic aids of today are a far cry from what was going on on the 500 strokers or even the first of the 990s. To state anything different is just trolling.

What a stupid statement! .... what changed in the electronics in the first year of 800's ... ie. one year so far ..... are you suggesting it was grossly different to the last few years of 990's?

I know who the "troll" is

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RCV600RR @ Apr 25 2008, 08:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It's an interesting point you raise, but you are forgetting a few things in reaching that point.

TC and electronics have significantly advanced from the time of 990s.

Remember that tyre technology has significantly improved from the 990 days, coupled with the fact that we have significantly less horsepower and torque. Of course it's easier to control the 800s.
whoahaa !! are you aware the 990 days ended in 06 thats just over a year ago

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Apr 24 2008, 10:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>


wow....you are truely ....... ........ if you think the 800s are more difficult to ride than the 990s, let alone the 500s...you've proven to all here you know nothing about the sport...i suggest perhaps you take up ballet...

"dumbed down" was in the artical...that i didn't write.
PS: I'd PAY to see you try and rail on a 500 2stroker...just so i can see you launch your dumb ... over the bars

At least I would happily pay for the chanse of cruising around on a four stroker GP bike while BR gets launched trying to keep up

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Apr 25 2008, 12:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What a stupid statement! .... what changed in the electronics in the first year of 800's ... ie. one year so far ..... are you suggesting it was grossly different to the last few years of 990's?
Read what I wrote FFS. I am stating that the electronics on the 800s of 2008 are vastly more complex than those of the 500 two-strokes of 2000, or the 990s of 2001.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Apr 25 2008, 06:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Firstly, the electronic aids of today are a far cry from what was going on on the 500 strokers or even the first of the 990s. To state anything different is just trolling.
That was written in response to you claiming (again) that electronic aids are nothing new and Rossi has always used them.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Apr 25 2008, 12:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I know who the "troll" is
Hmmm, it's much easier to call me a troll than comment on the fact that you were incorrect on the technicalities of fuel usage.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Apr 25 2008, 06:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You also stated in a previous post that 990s must have been detuned in order to have not run out of fuel given 20% more capacity, but only 5% more fuel, but when did you see a 990 run out of fuel on 22 litres? Never. Yet the 800s do it regularly on the slow down lap.

This would imply that (if your statement were true) they knew how to regulate the fuel better with the electronics of pre 2007, than they do with 800s and 2008 electronics.

However fuel usage is actually far more closely related to the power being produced than to the swept volume of the combustion chamber.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Apr 26 2008, 10:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Read what I wrote FFS. I am stating that the electronics on the 800s of 2008 are vastly more complex than those of the 500 two-strokes of 2000, or the 990s of 2001.

When was the Marelli system that is currently still in use designed ..?? ....

I think the trouble is that some folk are crying "new" .... but unfortunately its just because its all new to them

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Apr 26 2008, 06:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>When was the Marelli system that is currently still in use designed ..?? ....

I think the trouble is that some folk are crying "new" .... but unfortunately its just because its all new to them

And on a worksation from 2000 you can only program for Windows 2000. I see your point.

IMHO, all this importance given to electronics is fully justified, but also exaggerated.

The biggest factor to reduce lap times in the last 10 years in GP motorcycling
hasn't been the electronics. Not even the bikes themselves.
It's been the TYRES.

The demonstration, as someone suggested, is the impressive qualification times
obtained when almost all electronic aids are switched off. That's 70% tyres. And 30% rider.

Electronics are very useful in ONE area: to help the tyres last the race.
That is where electronics can really make a difference. Not in obtaining fast lap times.

I even think that the old 500cc 2-strokes, if equipped with the present generation of tyres,
woul obtain lap times still very close to the current ones,
- of course it would also take an excellent rider.

Electronics help in obtaining more consistent lap times across the whole race. Yes.
So they do help in winning races, but can never transform an average rider in
a champion.

The talk that with TC you can slam the throttle open,
and the TC will take care of everything,
is most probably a myth. At least for now