Joined Mar 2023
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Honda Repsol Team
- Thread starter BigGee1702
- Start date
Joined Aug 2007
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Pomona NY
Y’ know, on reading this, looking back at those seasons in the early 2000s, I do wonder to what degree the forum’s collective boosterism for Nicki was fueled by appreciation of his talent and how much was simply because he was an American, and of course very likable. Particularly, how much of that favor toward him was built on the general dislike of Rossi. Like wrestling matches there always has to be a “heel” and Rossi filled that role so well. Reminds me of how annoyed I used to get having to listen to British commentators giving nearly as much attention to Eugene Laverty when he was riding back in 2nd to last place, as the riders in the top three positions. Not to mention how certain British fans, whose names I won’t mention, had such loathing for Stoner. My point is, tho I have no love for Puig, I do wonder how he will be viewed in the history of the sport, when his record is viewed by objective eyes.
Joined May 2009
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Shovel's Club
I've been called a lot of things here over the years but this is the first time I've been called British.
I disagree. Like Leicester winning the English premier league Nicky had one top season in him, rode a great season and was simply the best rider that year regardless of Rossi or anyone else being better than him in other seasons. Imo he was an excellent superbike rider, and I had become a fan watching him in the American superbike series which was replayed in Australia, The 990 formula suited him which the 800 formula didn’t., he was no midget. The last year of the 990 formula when it was quite mature had a very even field in terms of equipment, with more bike/rider combinations capable of winning than had been the case for years, which again imo made the title win more meritorious rather than less imo. If Rossi wasn’t fully focused that was his problem, particularly since he had pretty much discounted Nicky. I still consider it likely much though I enjoyed Bayliss winning the last race that Nicky could have gone close to winning the race himself had it been necessary.
It helped that Nicky was a stand-up guy of course, and I am among those who like to support an underdog. I didn’t dislike Rossi then, at that time blaming an element among his fandom rather than Rossi himself for the persecution of his rivals.
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I have two comments on the above:
1. Nicky was not the best rider that year, he was consistent, and lucky.
2. There is nothing wrong with being lucky, at least once.
Who was then ?. Even if you want to ascribe Rossi being taken out by Elias as being due to no fault of his that is counterbalanced by Nicky being taken out by Pedrosa. Otherwise being more consistent over a whole season is the same as being better, imo only of course. Valentino had also pretty much dismissed Nicky as a threat when he decamped to Yamaha, saying they wouldn’t win against him as I recall. Maybe Capirossi getting injured could be considered lucky for Nicky, but I am not sure he had what it takes to seal the deal over a whole season, and he was dominated by Stoner the next season.
Joined Mar 2023
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Australia
Hayden was also unlucky, been taken out by Pedrosa which resulted in the final race been the decider
The following year Honda was smaller, too small for Hayden, it suited Pedrosa much more
The following year Honda was smaller, too small for Hayden, it suited Pedrosa much more
Joined Oct 2008
6K Posts | 5K+
In Cider
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
You disagree. Since my post was largely speculative, for purposes of fostering discussion and other opinions, I wonder if you might be more specific.
Well, of course I can’t speak for the entire forum. Though I am a nominal American, when it comes to racing, nationalities don’t count when it comes to tallying up the results. The year Nick won the title, his results were better than any other rider. Talent is one thing and the work needed to turn the talent into results is another. Nicky supplied both and was driven to succeed.
Of course, I personally loved Nicky for the other aspects of life that he represented for me, like being an honest stand up dude for one, as far as I know.
Also, it seems to me that Nick came into the GP fray towards the end of the period that the dirt tracking hang the rear end of the bike out exiting the corners was the fastest way around the track. This is also where you get into luck with not just the riding, but also the machinery, tires, etc. and style of riding required to win with what is available.
As I said, I think Nicky rode a great season the year he won the title on a bike that suited him being from a superbike background and was the deserved winner of the world title that year. My memory of the forum back then as an observer (I didn't start posting till 2007 when Stoner got going) was that the forum was overwhelmingly pro-Rossi then rather than that he was widely disliked, and that people who were Nicky fans took issue with an element among his fandom who sought to diminish Nicky's achievements rather than with Rossi. himself.
I had not much issue with Rossi himself personally until the events of late in the 2015 season, when it became clear to the world he was orchestrating that section of his fandom in their persecution of his rivals, after which I retrospectively blamed him for said persecution, particularly of Stoner the principal object of my own fanboyism. It honestly did not occur to me to blame him for what those fans did for a very long time, and as I recall it was Birdman a very smart and perceptive poster who had been "of all things a Biaggi fan" as i think he put it who first strongly made the point earlier in proceedings that this had been in his view part of Rossi's modus operandi all along. I had watched the Gibernau thing for instance as basically a neutral fan but if anything. a fan of Rossi ahead of Gibernau and watching live found Rossi's last corner move jolting and unexpected ahead of any other reaction, more or less along the lines of .... he just rode straight into him..,..
Where Nicky rates with other winners of single titles is another question, and I do also rate KRJR's title more highly than most as well, but the field in the 2006 season was imo one of the most competitive in history with in particular more equal equipment across the field than in most years as I also said previously..
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Joined Oct 2008
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In Cider
What's funny is his fanbase excuses that, but expects Marc Marquez to be executed for a similar move on Lorenzo in 2013 at the same corner.
Joined Aug 2007
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Pomona NY
Funny how memory works. You and I both came around the same time. My recollection is the only “regular” members who were dyed in the wool Rossi fans were Rog and Curve. There were intermittent Crash-based Rossi trolls, but I remember it as being an overwhelmingly Nicky tribe.
Help me out here. I recently watched Le Mans 2011 where Pedrosa and Simoncelli had a very similar incident. Pedrosa had the inside (Rossi) and Marco was on the outside (Sete). Pedrosa was slightly in front but Marco braked late. They dip into the turn and Dani stands his bike up, touches Sic's rear wheel and crashes. Marco was given a ride through and was excoriated for it. He had recently been been called out by Lorenzo (and maybe others) for his riding. Anyway, it looked to me like had Dani stayed with it, the worst outcome would have been what Rossi did to Gibernau or what MM did to Lorenzo but, by standing his bike up he sealed his own fate. Sorry for the dark images but that's MotoGP.com's video player = stupid.
Joined Oct 2008
6K Posts | 5K+
In Cider
This page has a photo sequence of the incident:
Simoncelli/Pedrosa crash sequence
Something different from this move to the Jerez last corner crashes is that, technically, Simoncelli was the overtaking rider. Dani got up his inside down the straight then Marco braked late as you noted and was deemed to have turned in on Dani.
Simoncelli had form as you noted, but also because as I noted above, Pedrosa wasn't the one passing, he was trying to avoid an accident. Compared to Rossi and Marquez in Jerez 2005 & 2013 respectively, who divebombed the corner and were fully braced/prepared for impact.
Simoncelli/Pedrosa crash sequence
Something different from this move to the Jerez last corner crashes is that, technically, Simoncelli was the overtaking rider. Dani got up his inside down the straight then Marco braked late as you noted and was deemed to have turned in on Dani.
Simoncelli had form as you noted, but also because as I noted above, Pedrosa wasn't the one passing, he was trying to avoid an accident. Compared to Rossi and Marquez in Jerez 2005 & 2013 respectively, who divebombed the corner and were fully braced/prepared for impact.
I agree of course but was holding off raking over (very) old coals, something of which I am obviously not infrequently guilty.
I have very clear memories of both incidents and saw both live without the benefit of years of exegesis.
As I said I had no animus against Rossi back in 2005, but basically what it looked like to me at the time was that Sete routinely turned into the last corner on the racing line when Rossi who had not been in front the whole last lap put his bike inside at a speed and on a trajectory where he couldn't have made the corner on anything resembling a racing line/without using Sete as a berm, and as I recall Sete ended up in the dirt on the other side of the track to avoid them both going down. As Stoner said later after Laguna Seca 2008 Rossi chose his opponents carefully when making such moves; I am fairly confident he would not have proceeded similarly either at Jerez 2005 or Laguna Seca 2008 had Toni Elias been his opponent. With the Jerez 2005 last corner "pass" there was also the subtext of Valentino having a "Gibernau curse" to uphold.
I will make no further comment on the Simoncelli/Pedrosa thing except that I agree with your employment of the word "technically", and I was far from a Simoncelli fan when I watched that incident live.
Not having a go at PRS717 whose posts I esteem but I personally wouldn't make an argument about GP bike racing over the last 25 years which involved any assumption that RD rules consistently regardless of the identity of the rider or riders concerned.
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Well thank you for the first bit. As for RD rulings, I guess that was my question. In my mind, Simoncelli did nothing wrong but #22's post about Marco technically being the rider attempting the overtake was something I hadn't considered.
Sorry I took the wrong implication from your post ie that Rossi’s move was legitimate.
I couldn’t see how Pedrosa wasn’t at least a contributor to the crash concerned, and didn’t think Simoncelli did much wrong either.
Simoncelli was in front after the previous corner, Dani made ground on him on the short straight, some said with the superior power of the factory bike (and/or perhaps a weight advantage), and to my mind hadn’t completed a pass before the next corner, although some on here who had raced themselves said he had done enough, and RD obviously agreed with them. I thought Simoncelli took the line through the corner he was always going to take, which was a legitimate racing line on which he was going to easily make the corner, so the issue was who was in front,. There was also some suggestion at the time that Dani hit a bump which led to him going into the corner hotter than he intended . He also sustained an injury which caused him to miss races, which likely influenced RD as it often does.
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