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BigGee1702 said:
There should be a go fund me page to help fund the eradication of Alberto Puge. The man is a moron and should be removed from every form of motorcycle racing worldwide. He is solely responsible for Dani Pedrosa for not winning a world championship and he is solely responsible for Honda being the worst team and bike in MotoGP.

Please, please Honda!! Get rid of that total ..... and get someone that knows what he/she is doing. He wasn’t even a decent racer when he rode!!

Get it done Honda
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People have been hoping for Puig's dismissal for a long time, but he always manages to hang around. He always seems to have a rider in the pipeline that Honda are eager to interview. You have to give him credit for having Dani and Casey under his wing at the same time. That's a pretty epic rider portfolio for a manager.

We'll see what happens. Brivio is free so maybe Puig is on his way out. Maybe Honda will go Italian if Repsol waver.
 
#22 said:
1. MotoGP riders are not expected to be engineers. In days of old, it was advantageous for riders and drivers to have engineering knowledge to suggest changes to the vehicle. Now it's a completely different game. The riders are expected to just explain what the bike is doing, and the data engineers use that and the data combined to do development.
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This is what confuses me about giving feedback. If a rider does have some engineering knowledge, wouldn't it be more advantageous to describe what the bike is doing in engineering-speak? I mean, if it's as simple as a rider saying; "I'm spinning-up the rear coming out of corners" or "the bike is really unstable under hard braking" then what separates a rider who gives "good" feedback from a rider who does not?
 
Saffa said:
You don't need to be testing new parts to be able to give good feedback to engineers.
I've also read and heard pundits/commentators talk about Marini being good at relaying feedback to engineers.
The best riders are normally not very good at this because of their ability to ride "around" issues
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I have to say, one wonders about pundits making this assessment, in that such-and-such rider gives good feedback is kind of a generic thing that all teams seem to say. Never heard a team manager say, our rider gives ...... feedback.
 
mylexicon said:
People have been hoping for Puig's dismissal for a long time, but he always manages to hang around. He always seems to have a rider in the pipeline that Honda are eager to interview. You have to give him credit for having Dani and Casey under his wing at the same time. That's a pretty epic rider portfolio for a manager.

We'll see what happens. Brivio is free so maybe Puig is on his way out. Maybe Honda will go Italian if Repsol waver.
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To be fair, Pooch didn't exactly "discover" Stoner. Stoner had been aiming at riding for the same company as Gardner and Doohan since he was a kid.
 
PRS717 said:
This is what confuses me about giving feedback. If a rider does have some engineering knowledge, wouldn't it be more advantageous to describe what the bike is doing in engineering-speak? I mean, if it's as simple as a rider saying; "I'm spinning-up the rear coming out of corners" or "the bike is really unstable under hard braking" then what separates a rider who gives "good" feedback from a rider who does not?
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Precisely.
 
Keshav said:
To be fair, Pooch didn't exactly "discover" Stoner. Stoner had been aiming at riding for the same company as Gardner and Doohan since he was a kid.
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Alberto can be credited with getting Casey to LCR, where he had the good fortune to work with Ramon Forcada, before jumping to Ducati. Puig had little to do with Casey's success, in fact, Casey started winning when he left Puig behind, but I still think the paddock probably associated Casey's career with Puig's guidance.

Who knows, Puig is an enigma. He backed Dani, but despite Dani never winning a WC, he somehow fenagled his way into HRC by forming a working relationship with Marquez (apparently). His job seems to be little more than traveling the globe trying to get talent under contract for himself and HRC, while developing strategic heterodoxies. I think that's how he won over Marquez and got promoted into HRC. He and Marc seem to have a penchant for brinksmanship--something that Casey and Dani couldn't tolerate.
 
mylexicon said:
Alberto can be credited with getting Casey to LCR, where he had the good fortune to work with Ramon Forcada, before jumping to Ducati. Puig had little to do with Casey's success, in fact, Casey started winning when he left Puig behind, but I still think the paddock probably associated Casey's career with Puig's guidance.
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Have to say, I didn't know that. That was the year I just started following MotoGp again, after losing touch with it for some years.
 
#22 said:
Yep, I don't see what the attraction to Marini was over say, Diggia. Diggia was willing to take a 1 yr contract that Honda wanted to offer and was a race winner.
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Rumor is that Puig wanted DiGia, Honda management wanted Marini.
 
MdubSTYLIE said:
Where have you heard this? He was on the 4th team on the ducati totem pole. He was on a bike with no new parts. He has had nothing to do with development. Honda signed him because they had zero options. So they went with the guy with a famous brother.
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Honda's New Beginnings: Was The Valencia Test The Start Of A Turnaround? | MotoMatters.com | Kropotkin Thinks

motomatters.com motomatters.com
"Marini's greatest asset, however, is his intelligence. Speaking to him, his ability to analyze, understand, and explain every detail of riding a MotoGP bike impresses. Those who have heard Marini talk to his engineers know how well he can analyze problems, prioritize them, and communicate that clearly to crew chiefs and engineers. If HRC wanted feedback with which to improve the RC213V, there are few better choices than Luca Marini."
 
mylexicon said:
Alberto can be credited with getting Casey to LCR, where he had the good fortune to work with Ramon Forcada, before jumping to Ducati. Puig had little to do with Casey's success, in fact, Casey started winning when he left Puig behind, but I still think the paddock probably associated Casey's career with Puig's guidance.

Who knows, Puig is an enigma. He backed Dani, but despite Dani never winning a WC, he somehow fenagled his way into HRC by forming a working relationship with Marquez (apparently). His job seems to be little more than traveling the globe trying to get talent under contract for himself and HRC, while developing strategic heterodoxies. I think that's how he won over Marquez and got promoted into HRC. He and Marc seem to have a penchant for brinksmanship--something that Casey and Dani couldn't tolerate.
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As I recall Dorna had a fair bit to do with Casey getting the LCR ride (something they may have regretted later), being desirous of improving variety on the grid which having an Australian rider on the grid would help accomplish.

I despise Puig in general and consider him to have been disastrous for everyone concerned during his involvement in the premier class and along with many others would like to see him gone. He deserves to go imo for sacking Dani, for what gave every appearance of being for petty reasons/reasons of spite, even apart from anything else, and another individual incident involving DP, the fake pit board at Sachsenring also qualifies, again imo. Those who consider Puig revved up Dani prior to the race in which he took Nicky Hayden out, which looked likely to have cost Nicky the 2006 championship at the time, may not be far wrong either. I do doubt Honda would have got to the parlous position they are now in with their bike had Dani remained involved as a test rider, not that any of MM’s team-mates since have shown quality approaching even latter day Dani in any case. There have been rumours in the past Puig had a connection with Repsol, perhaps severed now HRC have no Spanish rider.

To be fair he did very well with young riders in pre-GP racing including identifying talent cf Dani and Casey. As I recall he was heavily involved in the Red Bull rookies thing and was excellent in that role. Casey has always been grateful to him and repeatedly expressed thanks to him back in his day for Puig’s help when he was in junior racing, iirc he even lived in a motor home in Puig’s back yard at one time.
 
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michaelm said:
As I recall Dorna had a fair bit to do with Casey getting the LCR ride (something they may have regretted later), being desirous of improving variety on the grid which having an Australian rider on the grid would help accomplish.

I despise Puig in general and consider him to have been disastrous for everyone concerned during his involvement in the premier class and along with many others would like to see him gone. He deserves to go imo for sacking Dani, for what gave every appearance of being for petty reasons/reasons of spite, even apart from anything else, and another individual incident involving DP, the fake pit board at Sachsenring also qualifies, again imo. Those who consider Puig revved up Dani prior to the race in which he took Nicky Hayden out, which looked likely to have cost Nicky the 2006 championship at the time, may not be far wrong either. I do doubt Honda would have got to the parlous position they are now in with their bike had Dani remained involved as a test rider, not that any of MM’s team-mates since have shown quality approaching even latter day Dani in any case. There have been rumours in the past Puig had a connection with Repsol, perhaps severed now HRC have no Spanish rider.

To be fair he did very well with young riders in pre-GP racing including identifying talent cf Dani and Casey. As I recall he was heavily involved in the Red Bull rookies thing and was excellent in that role. Casey has always been grateful to him and repeatedly expressed thanks to him back in his day for Puig’s help when he was in junior racing, iirc he even lived in a motor home in Puig’s back yard at one time.
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Dorna were surely instrumental in Casey's ascendancy to the premier class since they were fielding LCR's bid to join MotoGP and also providing partial funding. Puig is credited with getting Stoner out of Spanish juniors and into the grand prix paddock with LCR in the lower classes. Talent development is seemingly Puig's only claim to fame. He discovered Elias, Pedrosa and Stoner, all of whom he pushed into grand prix where they would eventually become world champions.

We Hayden-fanboys have no love for Emperor Puig (formerly Darth Puig) after the events that transpired in 2006. Though, Puig had an indirect hand in Hayden becoming champion because Alberto promoted Elias, who famously knocked Valentino down at Jerez and later stole a win and 5 critical points from Rossi at Estoril in 2006. Like most of us, I have no appreciation for Puig. I'm just trying to explain the historical achievement he parlayed into becoming HRC's head talent scout. No one seems able to get rid of him. On the contrary, he keeps clawing his way up the food chain, even when he appears to be failing miserably (e.g lying to Dani or losing Marquez to Gresini).

I'd sooner bet that Puig will somehow dispossess the Ezpeletas of MotoGP than I would bet on his demise. Sure, at some point Puig will make an exit, but I've given up fantasizing about his imminent demise.
 
mylexicon said:
Dorna were surely instrumental in Casey's ascendancy to the premier class since they were fielding LCR's bid to join MotoGP and also providing partial funding. Puig is credited with getting Stoner out of Spanish juniors and into the grand prix paddock with LCR in the lower classes. Talent development is seemingly Puig's only claim to fame. He discovered Elias, Pedrosa and Stoner, all of whom he pushed into grand prix where they would eventually become world champions.

We Hayden-fanboys have no love for Emperor Puig (formerly Darth Puig) after the events that transpired in 2006. Though, Puig had an indirect hand in Hayden becoming champion because Alberto promoted Elias, who famously knocked Valentino down at Jerez and later stole a win and 5 critical points from Rossi at Estoril in 2006. Like most of us, I have no appreciation for Puig. I'm just trying to explain the historical achievement he parlayed into becoming HRC's head talent scout. No one seems able to get rid of him. On the contrary, he keeps clawing his way up the food chain, even when he appears to be failing miserably (e.g lying to Dani or losing Marquez to Gresini).

I'd sooner bet that Puig will somehow dispossess the Ezpeletas of MotoGP than I would bet on his demise. Sure, at some point Puig will make an exit, but I've given up fantasizing about his imminent demise.
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Sure, he is probably functionally immortal with a bunch of clones stashed away to extend the Darth Sidious/Emperor metaphor.

I neglected Juan Mir as I often do, HRC do have a current Spanish rider, the question is whether he is sufficient for Repsol now MM is gone, to which I would have thought the answer was not without much better results next season.
 
Keshav said:
I have to say, one wonders about pundits making this assessment, in that such-and-such rider gives good feedback is kind of a generic thing that all teams seem to say. Never heard a team manager say, our rider gives ...... feedback.
Click to expand...
I don't know why this is so difficult for people to accept... They must really hate his brother 😄
I don't think it's a case of people stopping by every single garage and ask team managers how their riders give info to the engineers. These people talk to each other all the time and for a particular rider's skills in *insert discipline* to come up in conversation is surely not that far fetched?
 
In developing a bike, there is a fundamental difference between, "if you do xyz the bike will be better for me" & "if you do xyz the bike will be better". There is no doubt that some riders can communicate the nuance, and some cannot... on a sliding scale, obviously.
 
Saffa said:
I don't know why this is so difficult for people to accept... They must really hate his brother 😄
I don't think it's a case of people stopping by every single garage and ask team managers how their riders give info to the engineers. These people talk to each other all the time and for a particular rider's skills in *insert discipline* to come up in conversation is surely not that far fetched?
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Not saying "farfetched". Simply, it's a generic kind of complimentary thing a team manager will spout, when he has nothing substantial to say on a slow news day. Kind of like when there's an awkward silence and people comment on the weather, or the local sports team.
 
Keshav said:
Not saying "farfetched". Simply, it's a generic kind of complimentary thing a team manager will spout, when he has nothing substantial to say on a slow news day. Kind of like when there's an awkward silence and people comment on the weather, or the local sports team.
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I go a little both ways on this. Sure the engineering is most important, cf Gigi and the recent Ducati, or the V5 Honda of days past.

I do think riders can have an influence, particularly the superstar riders. Even Gigi, who must be close to being the ultimate engineer having completely transformed Ducati's fortunes, considers riders to be important cf his strong push for Jorge Lorenzo. Mick Doohan is on the record as saying much of his input in his pomp involved stopping the Honda engineers from over-"improving" his bikes. Rossi famously made his choice among the variants of the Yamaha presented to him at the beginning of his Yamaha tenure. I find the narrative that when rule changes etc started to affect the Honda MM told the Honda engineers just to make the bike as fast as possible and he would ride it quite believable. The Ducati 800 bike was basically an unrideable bike that was very fast if a rider could be found who could ride it, and mostly serendipitously Casey Stoner was such a rider, but Ducati proceeded on the assumption that the bike was wonderful and let down by him in his latter years there; I guess he does bear responsibility for approving the CF version as those who despised him argued at the time.
 
michaelm said:
I go a little both ways on this. Sure the engineering is most important, cf Gigi and the recent Ducati, or the V5 Honda of days past.

I do think riders can have an influence, particularly the superstar riders. Even Gigi, who must be close to being the ultimate engineer having completely transformed Ducati's fortunes, considers riders to be important cf his strong push for Jorge Lorenzo. Mick Doohan is on the record as saying much of his input in his pomp involved stopping the Honda engineers from over-"improving" his bikes. Rossi famously made his choice among the variants of the Yamaha presented to him at the beginning of his Yamaha tenure. I find the narrative that when rule changes etc started to affect the Honda MM told the Honda engineers just to make the bike as fast as possible and he would ride it quite believable. The Ducati 800 bike was basically an unrideable bike that was very fast if a rider could be found who could ride it, and mostly serendipitously Casey Stoner was such a rider, but Ducati proceeded on the assumption that the bike was wonderful and let down by him in his latter years there; I guess he does bear responsibility for approving the CF version as those who despised him argued at the time.
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Yeh History has been littered with bikes where the engineers hit the desired metrics with the sacrifice of rideability, the Aprilia triple been an example with its light switch power band.

Ducati were partially in that position prior to Gigi turning up, though Rossi managed to make some changes though there wasn't sufficient maturity of those changes for them to keep Rossi. Gigi changed the engineering by bringing the engineers to some or many of the races so to give them a better feel of the overall needs leading to the GP15 which was the first iteration of the modern Ducati, later seeing Dovi return multiple runner up championship results.

Back in the Ducati 800 days the budget was modest and there were almost no updates during the season, what Stoner got at the beginning of the season was pretty much what he finished the season.

The Ducati CF frame didn't do much to improve the bike as the engine was a stressed member, ie there was lump of solid alloy that made up a portion of the frame negating any improvements of feel that the CF frame might of or might not of provided. I suspect that with the current Michelin tyres that feel would be even more critical nowadays as there is less warning of letting go, which we saw happen with more Honda's than other brands in 2023, an area that Honda needs to work on more than the other manufacturers.
 

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