Gran Premio Motul de la Comunitat Valenciana 2022

misfit · Nov 12, 2022

Keshav said:
Can't edit after 60 minutes. Wanted to say that sports authorities don't really care about the personal lives of those they govern either, beyond how said behaviors affect their bottom line. The whole idea that athletes should be held to a higher moral standard that regular folks is a cornball, defective and outdated concept. They come to their various sports to compete in physical trials, not moral olympics. If the public need to have youth guided in ethics and virtuous behavior, they should look to authorities they've elected to that purpose; you know, lawyers, cops, priests and politicians. Oh wait . . .

IMO, his punishment should be no different from that of anyone else in the general public. So if the punishment is a road license suspension, then his road license is suspended and he be allowed to do his job which is to compete in MotoGP. I can understand that it may well be different if the offender is a policeman, lawyer or doctor, then this type of offence will not go down well with their employers since they aught to be setting an example considering their professions, but that's up to each professional body. I personally can't see that being a celebrity or professional athlete puts one on a pedestal of high moral expectations, or else..... I'm happy they didn't throw him under the bus professionally. Congrats on his championship.

warthog1 · Nov 12, 2022

misfit said:
IMO, his punishment should be no different from that of anyone else in the general public. So if the punishment is a road license suspension, then his road license is suspended and he be allowed to do his job which is to compete in MotoGP. I can understand that it may well be different if the offender is a policeman, lawyer or doctor, then this type of offence will not go down well with their employers since they aught to be setting an example considering their professions, but that's up to each professional body. I personally can't see that being a celebrity or professional athlete puts one on a pedestal of high moral expectations, or else..... I'm happy they didn't throw him under the bus professionally. Congrats on his championship.

Some big contradictions there.
You list him as a professional athlete.
I don't see why the behaviour of members of any other professions should be subject to sanction by their employers but not a MotoGP racer.
Certainly the MotoGP racer in question here has his actions broadcast far more broadly than most in the other professions you list.
He has a large fan base and the bad example set here has the potential to influence far more people.
The fact that he is involved in Motorsport and has done something very dangerous and stupid in a motorvehicle should be at least roundly condemned by those who employ him and those who run the sport to underline how unacceptable the behaviour was.

Keshav · Nov 12, 2022

warthog1 said:
Some big contradictions there.
You list him as a professional athlete.
I don't see why the behaviour of members of any other professions should be subject to sanction by their employers but not a MotoGP racer.
Certainly the MotoGP racer in question here has his actions broadcast far more broadly than most in the other professions you list.
He has a large fan base and the bad example set here has the potential to influence far more people.
The fact that he is involved in Motorsport and has done something very dangerous and stupid in a motorvehicle should be at least roundly condemned by those who employ him and those who run the sport to underline how unacceptable the behaviour was.

But, who exactly is it that has granted motorsports governing bodies, which are multi-billion dollar money making machines, you know, like FIFA, NOT places of worship, the moral authority to pass judgement on anyone else? It's ridiculous. If they were The Boy Scouts Of America, it would make sense. The whole concept of Olympian values is an outdated and corny ideology fostered by Greek intellectuals who wanted to create a bloodless, (and therefore "noble") high concept alternative to war. And that's what it became. Mind you it didn't stop them from getting the young competitors drunk and boning them after the games tho. The whole idea of these giant, cut-throat corporations posing as arbiters of moral authority is laughable.

warthog1 · Nov 12, 2022

Keshav said:
But, who exactly is it that has granted motorsports governing bodies, which are multi-billion dollar money making machines, you know, like FIFA, NOT places of worship, the moral authority to pass judgement on anyone else? It's ridiculous. If they were The Boy Scouts Of America, it would make sense. The whole concept of Olympian values is an outdated and corny ideology fostered by Greek intellectuals who wanted to create a bloodless, (and therefore "noble") high concept alternative to war. And that's what it became. Mind you it didn't stop them from getting the young competitors drunk and boning them after the games tho. The whole idea of these giant, cut-throat corporations posing as arbiters of moral authority is laughable.

Nobody is saying they need to be places of worship.
However they shouldn't tacitly condone dangerous, illegal stupidity more than any professional organisation should.
The top motogp riders are in the public eye and are paid a shitload of money for what they do. They have a huge fan base.
With that comes responsibility.
I disagree that they should be less accountable for their actions than other professional people.
They certainly have the capacity to influence numerous people as VR was more than aware.

michaelm · Nov 12, 2022

Nobody is saying he should have been thrown out of the sport, or even suspended, several of us had some disquiet it was basically totally ignored.

I don’t think his public profile should have much to do with anything, but as you say he is a professional, a professional rider
actually, and for that reason should be held to higher standards as far as riding or driving iin general are concerned imo.

michaelm · Nov 12, 2022

michaelm said:
Double

Keshav · Nov 13, 2022

warthog1 said:
Nobody is saying they need to be places of worship.
However they shouldn't tacitly condone dangerous, illegal stupidity more than any professional organisation should.
The top motogp riders are in the public eye and are paid a shitload of money for what they do. They have a huge fan base.
With that comes responsibility.
I disagree that they should be less accountable for their actions than other professional people.
They certainly have the capacity to influence numerous people as VR was more than aware.

Michael beat me to it in pointing out that no-one was suggesting they be less accountable.

The longer I live, the more derisive I am of various cultures that get sucked into the whole cult of celebrity. A person becoming highly recognized for having great talent, shouldn't mean they should automatically be burdened with the responsibility of setting a moral example for the youth of the world. Just because Van Gogh cut off his ear, he shouldn't have to take responsibility for young painters who emulate him. People might want to blame William Burroughs for all the people who became junkies because they thought that's what it meant to be cool and avant guard. Those people were going to become junkies anyway. It's like what every mother has ever told every kid. "If Johnny down the street jumps off a cliff, does that mean you have to jump off a cliff?" People with poor impulse control are going to follow their instincts regardless.

warthog1 · Nov 13, 2022

Keshav said:
Michael beat me to it in pointing out that no-one was suggesting they be less accountable.

The longer I live, the more derisive I am of various cultures that get sucked into the whole cult of celebrity. A person becoming highly recognized for having great talent, shouldn't mean they should automatically be burdened with the responsibility of setting a moral example for the youth of the world. Just because Van Gogh cut off his ear, he shouldn't have to take responsibility for young painters who emulate him. People might want to blame William Burroughs for all the people who became junkies because they thought that's what it meant to be cool and avant guard. Those people were going to become junkies anyway. It's like what every mother has ever told every kid. "If Johnny down the street jumps off a cliff, does that mean you have to jump off a cliff?" People with poor impulse control are going to follow their instincts regardless.

The suggestion appeared to be that some other professionals are held to higher standards, such as Doctors, Lawyers, Police.
As Michael also said in that post;

I don’t think his public profile should have much to do with anything, but as you say he is a professional, a professional rider
actually, and for that reason should be held to higher standards as far as riding or driving in general are concerned imo.

I don't see any reason to disagree with that.
I thought I made it quite clear he is well paid and in a privileged position as a result of his riding skills.
With that comes responsibility. I fail to see why other professionals be held more accountable.

misfit · Nov 13, 2022

warthog1 said:
You list him as a professional athlete.

Yeah, but not a profession that enforces the law he broke, or treats the victims of said law breakers.

warthog1 · Nov 14, 2022

misfit said:
Yeah, but not a profession that enforces the law he broke, or treats the victims of said law breakers.

So are you saying because he doesn't police the law or doesn't treat the potential consequences, he doesn't understand what could happen?
That somehow excuses the behaviour?
We disagree if so.

Anyway hopefully he has learned and it doesn't happen again.
You'd hope if it did there would be real consequences.

In any case, I'd rather discuss racing.
I hope he stays off the piss and races hard. He certainly can ride a bike and I look forward to seeing him battle others and his team mate.

Keshav · Nov 14, 2022

warthog1 said:
The suggestion appeared to be that some other professionals are held to higher standards, such as Doctors, Lawyers, Police.
As Michael also said in that post;

I don't see any reason to disagree with that.
I thought I made it quite clear he is well paid and in a privileged position as a result of his riding skills.
With that comes responsibility. I fail to see why other professionals be held more accountable.

Yes Lawyers, Judges and Police are in the law business. The operative word here is LAW. Pecco is a guy who is good at going fast on motorcycles. He is not the host of a Saturday morning kiddie program on the telly. He has neither law degree or semesters in a doctrinal college and has not made a career out of being or claiming to be saintly. Nobody goes to the track to see him perform death-defying acts of morality.

Also . . . I don't see that he has been in any way gifted with "privilege". He is where he is because he worked hard his entire life to be a good rider; a dangerous and much more demanding road than being
a clergyman. Why anyone should lay on him the extra burden of being saintly is beyond me.

michaelm · Nov 14, 2022

Keshav said:
Yes Lawyers, Judges and Police are in the law business. The operative word here is LAW. Pecco is a guy who is good at going fast on motorcycles. He is not the host of a Saturday morning kiddie program on the telly. He has neither law degree or semesters in a doctrinal college and has not made a career out of being or claiming to be saintly. Nobody goes to the track to see him perform death-defying acts of morality.

Also . . . I don't see that he has been in any way gifted with "privilege". He is where he is because he worked hard his entire life to be a good rider; a dangerous and much more demanding road than being
a clergyman. Why anyone should lay on him the extra burden of being saintly is beyond me.

No one is requiring him to be a saint. Drink driving is a crime and kills people however. He can have a drink and not drive to his heart’s content as far as I am concerned.although it might interfere with the rigours of his profession.as it does with other sportspeople If done to excess. I see hypocrisy as Gaz does in how they crackdown on alcohol fueled incidents in the local Australian football codes for ‘bringing the sport into disrepute’ while being sponsored by alcohol providores, although I draw the line at assault or again drink driving; they do seem to restrict themselves from the latter, perhaps partly because they know the consequences from the code.

The thing tor me is that drink driving is at odds with being a professional rider/driver reliant on others as they are on him for safety on track. As has been said why didn’t he just call a taxi/Uber, he is a multimillionaire, or get someone from his entourage to drive him?. He does not have privilege in general, his title is the result of talent and hard work including working his way up from the satellite team but also-rans like Iannone and Ant West are pretty much out of the sport, it would appear because of the general WADA policy for running/jumping etc athletes being applied to them as bike riders

PRS717 · Nov 14, 2022

michaelm said:
. As has been said why didn’t he just call a taxi/Uber, he is a multimillionaire, or get someone from his entourage to drive him?.

Good judgment is the first thing to go when one is under the influence. I forget what is BAC was at the time but it's my guess he's probably not a regular drinker and has a low tolerance.

michaelm · Nov 14, 2022

PRS717 said:
Good judgment is the first thing to go when one is under the influence. I forget what is BAC was at the time but it's my guess he's probably not a regular drinker and has a low tolerance.

Yes that’s the thing, the football players are usually restricted in when they can drink because it is deleterious to training and particularly recovery, and hence are prone to handling it badly.

I am not that down on him himself, it was a dumb thing from a young man and kind of understandable, but twice the limit and a crash are not trivial, and as others do I wonder whether Dorna and Ducati would have a different attitude if he was a rider of lesser status/ not Ducati’s hope for a first tile in 15 years and crucial to the denouement of the season for Dorna.

michaelm · Nov 14, 2022

michaelm said:
Yes that’s the thing, the football players are usually restricted in when they can drink because it is deleterious to training and particularly recovery, and hence are prone to handling it badly.

I am not that down on him himself, it was a dumb thing from a young man and kind of understandable, but twice the limit and a crash are not trivial, and as others do I wonder whether Dorna and Ducati would have a different attitude if he was a rider of lesser status/ not Ducati’s hope for a first title in 15 years and crucial to the show/denouement of the season for Dorna.

Bern1 · Nov 14, 2022

Wow, a lot of pages on this. I guess we're in the year 2022.

I just don't see why this is an issue. He drove drunk into a ditch. Sure, he could have killed somebody or himself, but he didn't.

Things turn out to be what they are, not what they "should" be.

The US dropped nuclear weapons on a civilian population instead of making an example of some unpopulated island and Nicky Hayden didn't look before riding his bike into an intersection instead of paying attention.

On to racing!

warthog1 · Nov 14, 2022

Keshav said:
Yes Lawyers, Judges and Police are in the law business. The operative word here is LAW. Pecco is a guy who is good at going fast on motorcycles. He is not the host of a Saturday morning kiddie program on the telly. He has neither law degree or semesters in a doctrinal college and has not made a career out of being or claiming to be saintly. Nobody goes to the track to see him perform death-defying acts of morality.

Also . . . I don't see that he has been in any way gifted with "privilege". He is where he is because he worked hard his entire life to be a good rider; a dangerous and much more demanding road than being
a clergyman. Why anyone should lay on him the extra burden of being saintly is beyond me.

Doctors as are not involved in enforcing or adjudicating the law.

They were given as an example of a professional of whom higher standards are expected.

Privilege; a right, immunity, or benefit enjoyed by a particular person or a restricted group of people beyond the advantages of most:

I am not saying he was gifted anything. Sure he has earned it. He is however in a position others are not. A very select group of people work to get there.
Breaking the law, being stupid and a danger to others isn't a desirable characteristic I'd have thought.

I don't expect him to repeat the same mistake, nor should he.

michaelm · Nov 14, 2022

Fair enough. The incident has very little to do with him winning the title fair and square, and nothing to do with the Valencia race.

michaelm · Nov 15, 2022

Was meant as a reply to Bern 1.

Keshav · Nov 15, 2022

michaelm said:
Fair enough. The incident has very little to do with him winning the title fair and square, and nothing to do with the Valencia race.

Exactly. The whole thing has zero to do with racing. If he screws up and pays the fine and gets points on his license, like any other mortal on his day off from work, that should be the end of it. No reason why a person should suffer extra penalties for the crime of being talented or well-known. It’s really nobody else’s business. That some people feel celebrities are somehow beholden to them is just silly. You pays yer ticket, and yah sees the show. After that, everybody goes home. End of.

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