Gran Premio Motul de la Comunitat Valenciana 2022

michaelm · Nov 7, 2022

michaelm said:
There has never been prohibition in Australia, in fact the economy of the nascent colony 250 years ago was pretty much run on alcohol, cf the so called rum corps.

Drink driving is treated rather seriously though, and twice the legal limit would lead to an automatic licence suspension, religious leader, medical practitioner or whatever, with potential professional consequences, a DUI conviction is notifiable to the medical registration board if you are a doctor for instance.

what does occur is dose related neurological impairment from alcohol consumption, and twice the legal limit on most places would be well within the territory of such impairment, as someone with the super physiological reflexes Bagnaia must have crashing a vehicle would indicate as I said. Particularly if MDub has life experience he imo has a point, driving at twice the legal limit on a public road is not trivial.

Agree on both points.

Many or most religious leaders being hypocrites does not equate to everyone being allowed to drive loaded.

I look forward to next season, I think MM should be right physically, and hopefully Honda can come up with at least some improvement in the bike, they were reputedly concentrating on their F1 engine program which I understand has been handed over to Red Bull .

The crash dismayed me somewhat, though, pethaps it was just a question of him pushing as hard as he could with nothing to lose, but I hope the bikes haven’t evolved to the point where even MM can’t make a difference.

#22 · Nov 7, 2022

michaelm said:
Agree on both points.

Many or most religious leaders being hypocrites does not equate to everyone being allowed to drive loaded.

I look forward to next season, I think MM should be right physically, and hopefully Honda can come up with at least some improvement in the bike, they were reputedly concentrating on their F1 engine program which I understand has been handed over to Red Bull .

The crash dismayed me somewhat, though, pethaps it was just a question of him pushing as hard as he could with nothing to lose, but I hope the bikes haven’t evolved to the point where even MM can’t make a difference.

Marc says the issue is they cannot brake hard in a straight line with this bike, the exact opposite of the previous one. Because of that he is having to carry more corner speed and with Valencia having so many 'braking while turning' zones...that was the result. All the Honda's bar Taka crashed in the same way.

Keshav · Nov 7, 2022

michaelm said:
There has never been prohibition in Australia, in fact the economy of the nascent colony 250 years ago was pretty much run on alcohol, cf the so called rum corps.

Drink driving is treated rather seriously though, and twice the legal limit would lead to an automatic licence suspension, religious leader, medical practitioner or whatever, with potential professional consequences, a DUI conviction is notifiable to the medical registration board if you are a doctor for instance.

what does occur is dose related neurological impairment from alcohol consumption, and twice the legal limit on most places would be well within the territory of such impairment, as someone with the super physiological reflexes Bagnaia must have crashing a vehicle would indicate as I said. Particularly if MDub has life experience he imo has a point, driving at twice the legal limit on a public road is not trivial.

Pecco made a one-time stupid mistake. He's not a repeat offender. If he were, then the solution would be to send him to rehab, not take his job away. And please don't talk to me about "life experience". I'm 34 years sober.

michaelm · Nov 7, 2022

Good for you. I trust you weren't involved in any DUI incidents when you weren't sober, and that none of your friends and family have been injured by a DUI driver or rider; which is the life experience to which I referred obviously.

MdubSTYLIE · Nov 7, 2022

For the record I never said Petco should be blacked balled from motogp for what he did. But I do think he should have been punished. I also think he should have had a press conference to answer the tough questions and show remorse for his actions. Athletes are public figures and are held to higher standards than normal people and their mistakes have higher costs. If they don't like that than maybe motogp isn't the place for them. It is unprecedented for an athlete to not face some kind of punishment for drunk driving. I could list athletes all day who have been suspended or worse for this action. If anyone can show me a single time an athlete was not punished for this feel free to show me but don't claim it happened if you can't back it up. There are at least 3 instances of this happening and the other two both were fired by there team in motogp. Ant West and Andre Ianone have never returned to racing since their dirty piss test which I find to be insanely excessive. All I'm saying is dorna's new poster child should have been punished for this act 2 maybe 3 races by dorna or ducati but they didn't do that for the simple fact that he is there new VR46. If this had been Remy Gardener he would have been fire before the end of summer break.

michaelm · Nov 7, 2022

MdubSTYLIE said:
For the record I never said Petco should be blacked balled from motogp for what he did. But I do think he should have been punished. I also think he should have had a press conference to answer the tough questions and show remorse for his actions. Athletes are public figures and are held to higher standards than normal people and their mistakes have higher costs. If they don't like that than maybe motogp isn't the place for them. It is unprecedented for an athlete to not face some kind of punishment for drunk driving. I could list athletes all day who have been suspended or worse for this action. If anyone can show me a single time an athlete was not punished for this feel free to show me but don't claim it happened if you can't back it up. There are at least 3 instances of this happening and the other two both were fired by there team in motogp. Ant West and Andre Ianone have never returned to racing since their dirty piss test which I find to be insanely excessive. All I'm saying is dorna's new poster child should have been punished for this act 2 maybe 3 races by dorna or ducati but they didn't do that for the simple fact that he is there new VR46. If this had been Remy Gardener he would have been fire before the end of summer break.

I don't think anyone would call for him to be thrown out of the sport. A sanction of the type you mention would not have been unreasonable imo. I am not so sure that Bagnaia being the new Rossi was the reason for the lack of action, but he and FQ were the real contenders for the title and they do like to keep contention for the title going as long as possible as their actions at other times have demonstrated.

MdubSTYLIE · Nov 7, 2022

michaelm said:
I don't think anyone would call for him to be thrown out of the sport. A sanction of the type you mention would not have been unreasonable imo. I am not so sure that Bagnaia being the new Rossi was the reason for the lack of action, but he and FQ were the real contenders for the title and they do like to keep contention for the title going as long as possible as their actions at other times have demonstrated.

I agree had he not been in contention he would have been penalized for his actions thats my biggest problem with it. Again it is not Bagnia's fault they didn't penalize him. It is unfortunate that dorna and ducati chose to not doing anything for ratings over what is right. Its unfair to the other riders and fans who have been effected by drunk driving. They swept this issue under the table as if nothing happened. Thats just not a good look. I also think the fact that the yellow army is backing this guy has some to do with it. Dorna will do anything not to lose those so called fans. The yellow army and the points battle are the reason he wasn't punished and possibly fired by ducati. Most riders as history shows would have lost their job.

MdubSTYLIE · Nov 7, 2022

Glad to see you are still here Michael. As much as we haven't always seen eye to eye, I have always valued your opinion.

ratdeal · Nov 7, 2022

I think a 6 figure fine would have sufficed. No need to snatch the lads dream away, not least because such a decision would be hugely controversial and lead to calls of fixing the outcome of a very tight season.

In anycase, the fact we are discussing this a day after the championship concluded proves the real punishment, is the damage done to his public image.

michaelm · Nov 7, 2022

MdubSTYLIE said:
Glad to see you are still here Michael. As much as we haven't always seen eye to eye, I have always valued your opinion.

Likewise, and we ended up being in agreement about many things anyway. I have never had a problem with people having different opinions than mine in any case, that is the whole point of a forum such as this one.

michaelm · Nov 7, 2022

ratdeal said:
I think a 6 figure fine would have sufficed. No need to snatch the lads dream away, not least because such a decision would be hugely controversial and lead to calls of fixing the outcome of a very tight season.

In anycase, the fact we are discussing this a day after the championship concluded proves the real punishment, is the damage done to his public image.

Yes, something like that would have been fine imo as well, totally ignoring the incident was what people took issue with.

Gaz · Nov 7, 2022

MdubSTYLIE said:
I have never in my life seen an athlete not punished for this

I have seen quite a few, athletes and administrators over the years get away with drunken antics - some via an exceeding the limit while others for stupidity (NRL have a fair few) but, not one of these was involved in motorsports and to me, that is a lost factor of the discussion.

Drink driving (or riding in bike terms) is taking stupidity to a whole new level (IMO) and there is no excuse.

Crashing while drunk, more so a level of idiocy.

the harm drink driving causes is ridiculously excessive as it hurt innocents and kills many.

No excuses.

michaelm · Nov 7, 2022

Gaz said:
I have seen quite a few, athletes and administrators over the years get away with drunken antics - some via an exceeding the limit while others for stupidity (NRL have a fair few) but, not one of these was involved in motorsports and to me, that is a lost factor of the discussion.

Drink driving (or riding in bike terms) is taking stupidity to a whole new level (IMO) and there is no excuse.

Crashing while drunk, more so a level of idiocy.

the harm drink driving causes is ridiculously excessive as it hurt innocents and kills many.

No excuses.

Does having your road driving or riding licence (whatever the reason) suspended, affect racing licensing in Australia ?. I thought you might know.

Gaz · Nov 8, 2022

michaelm said:
Does having your road driving or riding licence (whatever the reason) suspended, affect racing licensing in Australia ?. I thought you might know.

Never used to and suspect it does not now.

Say that because in Oz, you can be 14 - 16 (depending on state etc) and be eligible to race at senior level on road race (as well as other disciplines).

That is at official levels - whether clubs, sponsors and/or teams have their own enforcements would vary depending on their own views (the biggest risk I see to any athlete is sponsorship loss)

Gaz · Nov 8, 2022

ratdeal said:
I think a 6 figure fine would have sufficed. No need to snatch the lads dream away, not least because such a decision would be hugely controversial and lead to calls of fixing the outcome of a very tight season.

In anycase, the fact we are discussing this a day after the championship concluded proves the real punishment, is the damage done to his public image.

Being brutally honest here (and I am biased - lost mates to drunk driving) I genuinely do not know what an adequate or fair penalty woudl have been. Not sure I see a loss of points or point opportunity as 'fair' in as much as he competes in an enclosed track in a specific series that is not 'open' or exposing the general public to risk or harm by the poor action.

I am not sure on penalty either but do like the idea of a damn large penalty of kinds however what is the cap to the penalty and what is the precedent plus, where do we stop (ie. riders caught at excessive speed on roads etc).

I would consider going a bit left field.

Constructor points.

He was an employee of Ducati and I know a number of employees who have been penalised at work (some lost jobs) due to drink driving behaviours, particularly to/from official functions or in company vehicles (suspect Pecco was in a sponsored car as example). Make the factory responsible for the behaviour during the official contracted time of the rider and while it is true that the average joe may not have a similar level of scrutiny by their employer - I will guarantee you that certain crimes or actions will see immediate penalty.

While the focus is on his drink drive, we should also not forget the Dennis Rodman helmet saga - his advisors or minders need a swift kick for the way they have managed him this year in the public space

JohnnyKnockdown · Nov 8, 2022

Little Walter said:
Morality Police much? Who amongst us has not at one time been young and dumb? I would have thought you would be the last to jump on the Cancel Culture bandwagon.

Lil Wahlberg has a problem with cancel culture but is fully onboard with Kancer Culture

Keshav · Nov 8, 2022

Gaz said:
Being brutally honest here (and I am biased - lost mates to drunk driving) I genuinely do not know what an adequate or fair penalty woudl have been. Not sure I see a loss of points or point opportunity as 'fair' in as much as he competes in an enclosed track in a specific series that is not 'open' or exposing the general public to risk or harm by the poor action.

I am not sure on penalty either but do like the idea of a damn large penalty of kinds however what is the cap to the penalty and what is the precedent plus, where do we stop (ie. riders caught at excessive speed on roads etc).

I would consider going a bit left field.

Constructor points.

He was an employee of Ducati and I know a number of employees who have been penalised at work (some lost jobs) due to drink driving behaviours, particularly to/from official functions or in company vehicles (suspect Pecco was in a sponsored car as example). Make the factory responsible for the behaviour during the official contracted time of the rider and while it is true that the average joe may not have a similar level of scrutiny by their employer - I will guarantee you that certain crimes or actions will see immediate penalty.

While the focus is on his drink drive, we should also not forget the Dennis Rodman helmet saga - his advisors or minders need a swift kick for the way they have managed him this year in the public space

This.

To be sure, he should receive the same penalty from the local authorities as any other driver that gets a DWI. For the record, no, I have never driven
drunk. Not out of any moral reasons. It just scared me.

As anyone knows, even one or two drinks cloud judgement. In a person who is not an experienced drinker, it's too easy for the line between good and bad judgement to get blurred. People who are habitual DWI offenders have a disease, same as someone who suffers from schizophrenia or manic depression, and should not be judged as morally deficient. I firmly believe this. Habitual offenders of this kind should absolutely have their driving privileges revoked because of their danger to the public. Were Bags to repeat this behavior, then his license to drive should be suspended like anyone else. Personally, I don't believe that Ducati give a .... about what he does in his personal life, other than to the extent that it might tarnish their brand image.

Keshav · Nov 8, 2022

Can't edit after 60 minutes. Wanted to say that sports authorities don't really care about the personal lives of those they govern either, beyond how said behaviors affect their bottom line. The whole idea that athletes should be held to a higher moral standard that regular folks is a cornball, defective and outdated concept. They come to their various sports to compete in physical trials, not moral olympics. If the public need to have youth guided in ethics and virtuous behavior, they should look to authorities they've elected to that purpose; you know, lawyers, cops, priests and politicians. Oh wait . . .

Gaz · Nov 8, 2022

Keshav said:
Can't edit after 60 minutes. Wanted to say that sports authorities don't really care about the personal lives of those they govern either, beyond how said behaviors affect their bottom line. The whole idea that athletes should be held to a higher moral standard that regular folks is a cornball, defective and outdated concept. They come to their various sports to compete in physical trials, not moral olympics. If the public need to have youth guided in ethics and virtuous behavior, they should look to authorities they've elected to that purpose; you know, lawyers, cops, priests and politicians. Oh wait . . .

Dont disagree but in Oz, we have NRL (National rugby League) who have in the past and still do stand players down when that player has either committed a crime that has a maximum sentence exceeding (I think) 11 years and often suspend players accused of minor infringements.

This stand down rule has seen some players who have since been aquitted or found not guilty spend 18 months or so out of the game while the legal system ran it's course

We have seen players suspended for multiple matches for being drunk in public, push/shove assaults and for accusations (not proof, accusations and charges) involving domestic violence type of behaviour.

Top of the tree athletes (and celebrities) are role models to many younger people (I feel it is the job of the parent but hey, it is the society we live in) and while I agree that they should not be held to a higher regard or expectation, that also means that they are not exceptions to normal standards of behaviour or accountability

michaelm · Nov 9, 2022

Gaz said:
Dont disagree but in Oz, we have NRL (National rugby League) who have in the past and still do stand players down when that player has either committed a crime that has a maximum sentence exceeding (I think) 11 years and often suspend players accused of minor infringements.

This stand down rule has seen some players who have since been aquitted or found not guilty spend 18 months or so out of the game while the legal system ran it's course

We have seen players suspended for multiple matches for being drunk in public, push/shove assaults and for accusations (not proof, accusations and charges) involving domestic violence type of behaviour.

Top of the tree athletes (and celebrities) are role models to many younger people (I feel it is the job of the parent but hey, it is the society we live in) and while I agree that they should not be held to a higher regard or expectation, that also means that they are not exceptions to normal standards of behaviour or accountability

Paradoxically perhaps I find most of the rugby league moral turpitude stuff immensely hypocritical, particularly since the main man running the whole thing would seem to have no trouble with the promotion of organised gambling, which if I am to return to moralising is basically the exploitation of a genetic weakness/a different form of addiction for gain often with bad consequences for the exploited and their families.

Most sports draw the line at criminality however, and not unreasonably imo, and I am in full agreement with you if not others concerning the serious nature of drink driving/ riding and regard it as not trivial, particularly for a motorsport competitor as you more or less said. I definitely was not calling for him to be thrown out of the sport, but pretending nothing happened is too far the other way in my view, particularly in comparison to less exalted competitors such as Iannone or Ant West who committed what were pretty much not even potentially other than victimless crimes, not that I recall the details of the Ant West thing in any detail.

I don’t recall many if any elite motorsport competitors engaging in drunk driving, although there were rumours about a gp rider turning up soused, but I can’t see how motorsport and drink driving /riding in general are other than a bad mix (so to speak). In Australia we actually had sponsorship at one stage of motorsport by an anti-DUI campaign iirc, and I actually like the Keke and Nico Rosberg zero alcohol ad, Keke having been one of my heroes when I was more into F1 back in his day.

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