Gracious in defeat - Rossi

Gaz · Dec 17, 2015

paparazzo said:
You are joking? This is off the top of my head, I am sure there are more.

'15 Assen/Argentina vs Rossi absolute and 100% deliberate contact

'13 Aragon - Pedrosa
'13 Jerez -Lorenzo, (used him as a brake)

Moto2 Luthi @ Qtatar

Moto2 Corsi at Valencia

There were incidents also with Espargaro, Kalio and of course that near murder of Willarot from Moto2 can not remember the events

This is from a guy who has barely started his career.

Anything else?

Assen - ........ - racing move - last corner - deliberateness could well be argued given cicrumstances.

13 Aragon - accidental contact - crash caused by faulty sensor to rear wheel that had been cut (had forgotten this one). Not a dirty or poor move - contact was incidental

13 Lorenzo - wow, you mean like near all other riders do at one time or other (Stoner on Bautista, Lorenzo on a few, Rossi on Gibernau, Simoncelli on many and so on). But last corner again ...........he is trying to win the race is he not allowed to make a move

Just a series if still photographs

As for the moto2 - please note that I mentioned MotoGP

The Willarott incident remains just as I said at the time, and under-punished piece of negligence from his team and himself.

But again, even using your (obviously coloured) recollections, in MotogGP Pedrosa is the only to have fallen as a result of contact with Marquez.

Actually, when you look at the Jerez incident is is somewhat reminiscent of a similar move, more recently that involved similar coloured bikes only (if i remember correctly) in that one, the rider pushing wide was said by many many fans to have ridden perfectly safely. Alternately, let us go back some years to a rider named Gibernau who was involved similarly at the same circuit with another guy - again the guy on the inside was said to have ridden perfectly and was not castigated or punished.

For reference

And so you mention thatt he has barely started his career - slightly incorrect as he has been racing for a number of years but ok then, lets say that he has a higher number of infractions than many ............ could one not argue inexperience?

Of course not, but then could one also not say that due to his very experience, a certain other rider should not have behaved in the dangerous manner that he did?

Anything else?

paparazzo · Dec 17, 2015

Keshav said:
A. Not qualified to answer. I did not see that conference. Link?

B. Marquez was really out of control in Moto2 and has been reckless in the premier class - tho he's never taken anyone out in a calculated fashion the way Rossi did.

I wish I could find it for you but can't. I am certain the far reach of Dorna has taken it down. Maybe you can find it on a torrent site? If you see it you will understand why Valentino couldn't possible shake his hand. If I remember he accused VR of kicking MM and even made the motion with his foot for extra drama. His hands and legs were all over the place as he was speaking. He even chewed and spit out a journalist simply for asking a question that did not pertain to Valentino or the incident.

michaelm said:
I don't care whether Rossi is gracious or not, but the OP seemed to be contending that Rossi was gracious in defeat, which he was very far from being imo, starting well in advance of the actual defeat.

I suspect what Jorge hated was the points lead in the championship Rossi maintained by illegal means.

MM has definitely been a dangerous rider, cf as always the Willairot incident, but didn't ride dangerously in the second half of the most recent season and may be tempering his approach. I agree with others that he has not ridden deliberately dangerously but don't consider that to count for much.

You really need to stop trying to be dramatic, this is not murder trial. There was an incident, he was penalized. If Jorge had any issue he should have took it up with RD instead of repeating over and over how he should be banned and he's not a 'sportsman' and how he 'would never do that'. He repeatedly wanted him banned and points removed and you seriously expect Valentino to forget all that in short notice and shake hands? Come on. Jorge needs to understand he over reacted to a situation that was not directed at him and had nothing to do with him. You can compare the contrast with Dani's comments and Jorge's comments to the exact same questions. Jorge is a great rider but a miserable human being

paparazzo · Dec 17, 2015

Gaz said:
Assen - ........ - racing move - last corner - deliberateness could well be argued given cicrumstances.

13 Aragon - accidental contact - crash caused by faulty sensor to rear wheel that had been cut (had forgotten this one). Not a dirty or poor move - contact was incidental

13 Lorenzo - wow, you mean like near all other riders do at one time or other (Stoner on Bautista, Lorenzo on a few, Rossi on Gibernau, Simoncelli on many and so on). But last corner again ...........he is trying to win the race is he not allowed to make a move

Just a series if still photographs

As for the moto2 - please note that I mentioned MotoGP

The Willarott incident remains just as I said at the time, and under-punished piece of negligence from his team and himself.

But again, even using your (obviously coloured) recollections, in MotogGP Pedrosa is the only to have fallen as a result of contact with Marquez.

Actually, when you look at the Jerez incident is is somewhat reminiscent of a similar move, more recently that involved similar coloured bikes only (if i remember correctly) in that one, the rider pushing wide was said by many many fans to have ridden perfectly safely. Alternately, let us go back some years to a rider named Gibernau who was involved similarly at the same circuit with another guy - again the guy on the inside was said to have ridden perfectly and was not castigated or punished.

For reference

And so you mention thatt he has barely started his career - slightly incorrect as he has been racing for a number of years but ok then, lets say that he has a higher number of infractions than many ............ could one not argue inexperience?

Of course not, but then could one also not say that due to his very experience, a certain other rider should not have behaved in the dangerous manner that he did?

Anything else?

Ahh, so Moto2 isn't motorcycle racing? Can't get killed? OK, sure.

And please posting the Sete clash? You can clearly see the difference, VR easily made the corner where Marc used his bike as a battering ram ( i think it is called that) and used Jorge as a brake. Keep trying though...

Gaz · Dec 17, 2015

paparazzo said:
Ahh, so Moto2 isn't motorcycle racing? Can't get killed? OK, sure.

Where did I say that Talps?

Please show me ............. oh wait, you cannot can you.

Oh, and before you spew forth, go back and read elsewhere what I have posted many many many times of the Willarott incident

As for Moto2 being lesser, ALL motorcycle racing is dangerous and can result in injury, or death so don't try to put words into my mouth or posts. The discussion was surround MM's MotoGP career and like Rossi or any rider who moves through the categories he has form in earlier categories but in MGP he has not been anywhere near where he had been in Moto2.

paparazzo said:
And please posting the Sete clash? You can clearly see the difference, VR easily made the corner where Marc used his bike as a battering ram ( i think it is called that) and used Jorge as a brake. Keep trying though...

Nope, they are the same issue - both are on the inside, force a rider wide and collide with that same rider .............. suggest that your tinted glasses need a good clean

Your turn, keep trying to divert the attention that when rider A does an action it is the greatest thing since 2 girls 1 cup, whilst when another does it it is the contents of said cup

Oh, and I haven't started yet about other similarities in moves between the chosen one and other moves of years past

paparazzo · Dec 17, 2015

Gaz said:
Where did I say that Talps?

Please show me ............. oh wait, you cannot can you.

Oh, and before you spew forth, go back and read elsewhere what I have posted many many many times of the Willarott incident

As for Moto2 being lesser, ALL motorcycle racing is dangerous and can result in injury, or death so don't try to put words into my mouth or posts. The discussion was surround MM's MotoGP career and like Rossi or any rider who moves through the categories he has form in earlier categories but in MGP he has not been anywhere near where he had been in Moto2.

Nope, they are the same issue - both are on the inside, force a rider wide and collide with that same rider .............. suggest that your tinted glasses need a good clean

Your turn, keep trying to divert the attention that when rider A does an action it is the greatest thing since 2 girls 1 cup, whilst when another does it it is the contents of said cup

Well, why not count moto2? The guy was a terror on the track in moto2, cutting inside and out and chopping across riders front wheels. MM was a going way too fast and was a battering ram, Rossi/Sete was no where near that. Anyway, you have your opinion, I have mine...

And I do not know what you mean with "talps".

michaelm · Dec 17, 2015

paparazzo said:
And please posting the Sete clash? You can clearly see the difference, VR easily made the corner where Marc used his bike as a battering ram ( i think it is called that) and used Jorge as a brake. Keep trying though...

Nonsense about the Sete incident which I watched live with my sympathies at the time more with Rossi than him; that incident was very similar to the MM/JL incident, Rossi just rode straight into Sete who was already turning in on the racing line to negotiate the corner, took Sete right across the track and was in no way going to make the corner on any sort of racing line.

No doubt VR is an exceptionally safe rider in general and MM hasn't been, although this is of little relevance to Sepang where anyone not entirely blinkered recognises Rossi was at fault in the incident which took MM out, including RD as it happens.

Gaz · Dec 17, 2015

paparazzo said:
Well, why not count moto2? The guy was a terror on the track in moto2, cutting inside and out and chopping across riders front wheels. MM was a going way too fast and was a battering ram, Rossi/Sete was no where near that. Anyway, you have your opinion, I have mine...

And I do not know what you mean with "talps".

Why not?

Easy, it was not part of the discussion but ok, happy to humour.

In Moto2 he did some stupid (not silly but stupid) moves that in a small number of cases resulted in others crashing .................. all riders have made poor choices that have had poor results for others so no new there

His problem was that some (not all) of his moves were, well fully in the public eye given his propensity to seek the media spotlight and his results (which led to claims of cheating).

IMO, WIllarott was a disgrace, as I said then and will repeat now because the search function mustn't be working - he deserved a lengthy holiday from the sport.

With regards to the 'battering ram', both MM and Rossi come in hard - the 'saving grace' being that both riders were going to run wide and yet had obstacles in their way and used those obstacles to stop and in some way redirect them onto the path they chose to follow. FWIW, the Rossi incident did actually result in a somewhat serious shoulder injury to Gibernau that would go one to haunt him for years to come so was hardly insignificant (and certainly, Gibbers would have played up the injury).

Use that non-functioning serach button and you will find why you may be called Talps

#22 · Dec 17, 2015

paparazzo said:
And please posting the Sete clash? You can clearly see the difference, VR easily made the corner where Marc used his bike as a battering ram ( i think it is called that) and used Jorge as a brake. Keep trying though...

The difference is only the riders involved, and of course as usual you excuse Rossi because it doesn't suit the narrative in your mind that he is the victim and can do no wrong. You have continually proved you cannot be subjective over Rossi.

povol · Dec 17, 2015

Jumkie said:
Thumbs down gesture is not similar to deliberately taking out a fellow competitor on a hot track. Its about as similar as throwing up gang signs and a drive by shooting.

Sounds like you're downplaying the seriousness of Rossi's actions and not laying the blame solely on his dastardly actions. You're name wouldn't happen to be Matt Oxley? I see he has written another attempt at apologizing and deflection of the fact the "poisonous end to the 2015 season" has only one person to blame: Valentino Rossi.

I have no idea about cricket.

Yep wasn't Rossi's fault, it was the electronics and tires that did it. Digging deep in the barrel for excuses to cover his actions.

Jumkie · Dec 17, 2015

povol said:
Yep wasn't Rossi's fault, it was the electronics and tires that did it. Digging deep in the barrel for excuses to cover his actions.

Oxley even put the blame on us the fans of the sport for wanting close racing. Haha. Close racing makes enemies on the track, which leads to riders losing their minds, accusing eachother, and running them off the track. We are all pieces of .... for wanting them to race.

Jumkie · Dec 17, 2015

paparazzo said:
Well, why not count moto2? The guy was a terror on the track in moto2, cutting inside and out and chopping across riders front wheels.

Part of the reason the MotoGP class is given more weight in judging a rider's dangerousness is because the premiere class is assumed to be the final and highest step of race craft. If you want to insist we account for the lower categories then we will need to revisit Valentino Rossi deliberately kicking out another rider in 250s caught on tape! Oh wait, that doesn't count as a continuum of egregious dangerous behavior right?

michaelm · Dec 17, 2015

paparazzo said:
I wish I could find it for you but can't. I am certain the far reach of Dorna has taken it down. Maybe you can find it on a torrent site? If you see it you will understand why Valentino couldn't possible shake his hand. If I remember he accused VR of kicking MM and even made the motion with his foot for extra drama. His hands and legs were all over the place as he was speaking. He even chewed and spit out a journalist simply for asking a question that did not pertain to Valentino or the incident.

You really need to stop trying to be dramatic, this is not murder trial. There was an incident, he was penalized. If Jorge had any issue he should have took it up with RD instead of repeating over and over how he should be banned and he's not a 'sportsman' and how he 'would never do that'. He repeatedly wanted him banned and points removed and you seriously expect Valentino to forget all that in short notice and shake hands? Come on. Jorge needs to understand he over reacted to a situation that was not directed at him and had nothing to do with him. You can compare the contrast with Dani's comments and Jorge's comments to the exact same questions. Jorge is a great rider but a miserable human being

I could say myself that you need to learn to debate logically and to be more familiar with basic arithmetic.

I was not being overly dramatic or accusing Rossi of murder, and have repeatedly disagreed that the incident was very dangerous, but Jorge went into the last race with a 7 point deficit; Rossi taking out MM illegally (under the rules of GP bike racing, I was speaking of racing illegality) meant he ensured he wouldn't lose 3 points of that lead. A 4 point lead would have made a difference to the Valencia race, in that a second with Rossi 3rd would have won Jorge the championship; why all the anguish about lack of passing for the lead at Valencia from your crew if the specific points difference was not important?

The extent of Valentino's lead was the crux of all the late season angst from Valentino. He it would seem wanted only Jorge to race him so others couldn't cost him points; I agree as it happens with Povol who believes Valentino realised he didn't have the pace to beat Jorge in the late season races.

Have you considered the possibility that winning a 5th championship was just as important to Jorge as winning a 10th championship was to VR, and that neither was more entitled to the 2015 championship than the other? You could perhaps also consider the possibility that MM is of the belief that Rossi did actually kick him, concerning which I would have thought his opinion is at least as valid as yours, and perhaps much more so particularly if the same standard of proof you and your ilk accepted in regard to Rossi's accusations about the PI race is applied; MM was very definitely out there on the track.

Bern1 · Dec 17, 2015

AntG said:
I must admit I've been following motorcycle racing since 1993 and never in any series have I ever seen a rider accuse rivals of ganging up on him, it's utterly bizarre, I've never seen a meltdown like it.

It is verily the definition of "losing it."

And, the whole world was watching.

Bern1 · Dec 17, 2015

Rafa said:
Yeah and with what? Hearsay? Read somewhere? Unless you have been personally managing a MotoGP team and part of the inner group, media just filters out facts and presents the juicy stuff. Now if you have read Stoner's biography, will you get good views on his arch rival?
So if you're a Stoner or Lorenzo or a Marquez fan, do you have to always shoot down a Rossi fan (which I am not).
So let's call it a day now..Will ya??

Rafa, I drew all my conclusions just watching the last few races.

It was all there in plain sight.

Bern1 · Dec 17, 2015

paparazzo said:
How can Rossi possible shake hands wit Jorge after his hate and vitriol filled comments at the post Sepang press conference? Go back and listen to his comments and look at the anger in his face. Then look at how Dani handled the same questions, with complete class and perhaps this is why Valentino shook hands and saluted Dani on the cool down lap.

Are you dense or something? You've been following from the 70's, gramps? OK, please teach me if you ever seen a more dangerous rider than Marc Marquez since I have been following only since mid-late90's.

Paparazzo I like your enthusiasm but I think you are blinded by yellow fog.

Bern1 · Dec 17, 2015

I go away for a few days and this is still going strong! I'll say it again, I admire all the enthusiasm on this forum, not that I agree with every post.

In retrospect, I think this is one of Jorge Lorenzo's greatest titles. After the immediate end of the season, it seemed that the Rossi-Marquez controversy was overshadowing Lorenzo's feat. However, with the benefit of some time in the rear view mirror, history will show what really happened. Coming from behind almost all season, Lorenzo reels off those four flag to flag performances to put himself into contention. Meanwhile, the Tavulia representative is smelling the blood of opportunism, cruising around for points. Oh wait, he did "win" at Assen, in a substantially less than elegant fashion.

And then, Lorenzo looming large and with with it all on the line, Rossi comes unglued in the most spectacular fashion with the entire racing world watching....his legacy tarnished.

The best and fastest rider on the season won the title. Justice served.

Yes, that was quite an unforgettable season.

povol · Dec 18, 2015

Jumkie said:
Part of the reason the MotoGP class is given more weight in judging a rider's dangerousness is because the premiere class is assumed to be the final and highest step of race craft. If you want to insist we account for the lower categories then we will need to revisit Valentino Rossi deliberately kicking out another rider in 250s caught on tape! Oh wait, that doesn't count as a continuum of egregious dangerous behavior right?

Not to mention Lorenzo was an absolute terror in the 250 class, but has tempered his approach since arriving in GP. Marquez has NOT been a dangerous rider since coming up to GP. He has been aggressive, but not once have i seen him purposely put another rider in danger and has done nothing that Rossi hasnt done two fold in his career.

yamaka46 · Dec 18, 2015

Gaz said:
Where did I say that Talps?

Please show me ............. oh wait, you cannot can you.

Oh, and before you spew forth, go back and read elsewhere what I have posted many many many times of the Willarott incident

As for Moto2 being lesser, ALL motorcycle racing is dangerous and can result in injury, or death so don't try to put words into my mouth or posts. The discussion was surround MM's MotoGP career and like Rossi or any rider who moves through the categories he has form in earlier categories but in MGP he has not been anywhere near where he had been in Moto2.

Nope, they are the same issue - both are on the inside, force a rider wide and collide with that same rider .............. suggest that your tinted glasses need a good clean

Your turn, keep trying to divert the attention that when rider A does an action it is the greatest thing since 2 girls 1 cup, whilst when another does it it is the contents of said cup

Oh, and I haven't started yet about other similarities in moves between the chosen one and other moves of years past

Dear God, I'd forgotten that. How many years ago was that?!

Now I remember in full tecnhicolour without looking for the video (no f-ing chance) and that's bad :bad:

yamaka46 · Dec 18, 2015

michaelm said:
Nonsense about the Sete incident which I watched live with my sympathies at the time more with Rossi than him; that incident was very similar to the MM/JL incident, Rossi just rode straight into Sete who was already turning in on the racing line to negotiate the corner, took Sete right across the track and was in no way going to make the corner on any sort of racing line.

No doubt VR is an exceptionally safe rider in general and MM hasn't been, although this is of little relevance to Sepang where anyone not entirely blinkered recognises Rossi was at fault in the incident which took MM out, including RD as it happens.

I have avoided almost all discussion on this topic- with my username it's for the best

But my mate, never a particular Rossi fan, far more of a Stoner fan, would disagree with your words. When we watched the race live he was disgusted with MM's tactics long before the incident, and immediately after it, his opinion was that MM deliberately caused his own takedown having been pushed to the edge (and not beyond) of the track, at very slow speeds, by a very pissed off Rossi.

Make of that what you will, but not all impartial observers (my mate got me into this sport back in the days of the Transatlantics, Donington 1987 to be precise) see this as completely black and white

Gaz · Dec 18, 2015

yamaka46 said:
Dear God, I'd forgotten that. How many years ago was that?!

Now I remember in full tecnhicolour without looking for the video (no f-ing chance) and that's bad :bad:

No need to thank me Yamaka, it is was forum buddies do man

Gracious in defeat - Rossi

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