Four races, 3 1/2 different men win...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rgvneil @ May 14 2008, 01:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It seems Rossi fans aren't the only ones who still haven't got over '06
I still have sleepless nights now.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rgvneil @ May 14 2008, 04:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It seems Rossi fans aren't the only ones who still haven't got over '06

You can chalk it up to whatever you like, but let me ask this simple question:

Who is more foolish?

1. The man who believes that all the manufacturers, Dorna, the FIM, and one legendary rider got together to solve the sport's impending crisis and after emerging from negotiations they started running the sport differently despite having changed nothing in the rule book.

OR

2. The man who believes that all the manufacturers, Dorna, the FIM, and one legendary rider got together to solve the sport's impending crisis and after 2-3 days of negotiations they emerged with a resolution to continue doing nothing.

Perhaps my ideas are based on circumstantial evidence, but I can assure you my beliefs about the tire changes is not rooted in my hatred for the 800s.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ May 11 2008, 03:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Maybe we should blame them for Princess Di's death and the war in Iraq too.

Pete

Keep an eye out for 2 guys on a grassy knoll at LeMans.
The top 4 guys are the best riders on the grid, and all have competitive bikes. It dont get much simpler than that. Lorenzo will have a tough time this weekend, maybe someone else can slip onto the podium- my longshot is Capirossi. With two races in the states one of the Americans should grab a win- I'd love to see Edwards get up there at Laguna or Indy.

You all know how much I love Suzukis but I really don't see them getting anywhere near a podium this year with so much talent on the grid.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rgvneil @ May 14 2008, 07:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It seems Rossi fans aren't the only ones who still haven't got over '06

have you?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (trackday @ May 14 2008, 06:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Keep an eye out for 2 guys on a grassy knoll at LeMans.
The top 4 guys are the best riders on the grid, and all have competitive bikes.

Nobody's debating that.

If you read my posts (I can't blame you for skimming them) you'll see I'm saying that the governing body has normalized the tires to keep costs down and encourage competition.

I'm suggesting that Stoner (the man who was mysteriously unable to replicate any performance from 2007 at China) is the person suffering most. He happens to be in the top 4.

I'm not making any comment on Hayden's defense. I don't think the governing body had much to do with the 2007 season outside of changing to the 800s and encouraging Honda and Yamaha to be spend-thrift.

Ezy wanted a control tire, the fans revolted. The sport couldn't take another unpopular rules change so Ezy did it under the table.

At DORNA the fan is the enemy. The purpose of the 2007 poll on their website was to see if they could make a control tire official. But the public said no, so the changes were negotiated in private and kept out of the rule book.

It ain't that complicated or far fetched. The way to keep the fans of close racing and the dogmatic fans of protomoto happy is to do things under the table.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ May 14 2008, 05:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Nobody's debating that.

If you read my posts (I can't blame you for skimming them) you'll see I'm saying that the governing body has normalized the tires to keep costs down and encourage competition.

I'm suggesting that Stoner (the man who was mysteriously unable to replicate any performance from 2007 at China) is the person suffering most. He happens to be in the top 4.

I'm not making any comment on Hayden's defense. I don't think the governing body had much to do with the 2007 season outside of changing to the 800s and encouraging Honda and Yamaha to be spend-thrift.

Ezy wanted a control tire, the fans revolted. The sport couldn't take another unpopular rules change so Ezy did it under the table.

At DORNA the fan is the enemy. The purpose of the 2007 poll on their website was to see if they could make a control tire official. But the public said no, so the changes were negotiated in private and kept out of the rule book.

It ain't that complicated or far fetched. The way to keep the fans of close racing and the dogmatic fans of protomoto happy is to do things under the table.
Other than smoke and mirrors, the only evidence you put forward for your theory on tyre "normalisation" is Stoner's inability to replicate his 2007 China time.

How do you explain Pedrosa's improvement of 15 seconds over his 2007 time? Honda is still using the spring valves, so I'd guess that a lot of the improvement is in the Michelin tyres.

Also how do you explain that Rossi was 8 seconds quicker than his 2007 time and 5 seconds quicker than Stoner's 2007 time on the Bridgestones, yet the Yam was still slower down the straight than the Duke?

Valentino Rossi
2007: 44' 15"927 (2nd)
2008: 44' 08"061 (1st) Difference: -7"9
Dani Pedrosa
2007: 44' 26"981 (4th)
2008: 44' 11"951 (2nd) Difference: -15"
Casey Stoner
2007: 44' 12"891 (1st)
2008: 44' 23"989 (3rd) Difference: +11"1

IMO the parity between Bridgestone and Michelin has been achieved by Michelin raising their game (and putting a reported additional 40% into their budget - hardly keeping costs down) and Bridgestone continuing to develop tyres with additional feedback from a very experienced development team, ie Rossi and Burgess.

Bridgestone have also been reported to be developing front qualifiers for the first time this year - again, not cost cutting.

With Stoner, he's failed to improve his time on last year for the last three races (he did at Qatar, but with much cooler temps), so I guess it may well be a problem with the Ducati setup as a whole, including how it uses the tyres.

Too much conspiracy theory, not enough supporting facts.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ May 14 2008, 10:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Nobody's debating that.

If you read my posts (I can't blame you for skimming them) you'll see I'm saying that the governing body has normalized the tires to keep costs down and encourage competition.

I'm suggesting that Stoner (the man who was mysteriously unable to replicate any performance from 2007 at China) is the person suffering most. He happens to be in the top 4.

I'm not making any comment on Hayden's defense. I don't think the governing body had much to do with the 2007 season outside of changing to the 800s and encouraging Honda and Yamaha to be spend-thrift.

Ezy wanted a control tire, the fans revolted. The sport couldn't take another unpopular rules change so Ezy did it under the table.

At DORNA the fan is the enemy. The purpose of the 2007 poll on their website was to see if they could make a control tire official. But the public said no, so the changes were negotiated in private and kept out of the rule book.

It ain't that complicated or far fetched. The way to keep the fans of close racing and the dogmatic fans of protomoto happy is to do things under the table.

In your mind, you must think your a genius and wonder why people can't see it the way you do.

In everyone elses mind though, your just crazy.

Come on Lex, back in the box.

I definitely wouldn't put it past dorna/ezy to contrive results, but they are demonstrably too incompetent to do so, and certainly not capable of doing it secretly. I would like to think ducati are just giving the others a head start to make the season interesting, but if so they don't appear to have let stoner in on the game given his demeanour after the last 3 races, unless he is a far better actor than has appeared to be the case previously. Unfortunately I think they have just stuffed up, although stoner was faster than last year at qatar by a similar margin to the other 3 race winners this year.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ May 14 2008, 02:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Other than smoke and mirrors, the only evidence you put forward for your theory on tyre "normalisation" is Stoner's inability to replicate his 2007 China time.

How do you explain Pedrosa's improvement of 15 seconds over his 2007 time? Honda is still using the spring valves, so I'd guess that a lot of the improvement is in the Michelin tyres.

Also how do you explain that Rossi was 8 seconds quicker than his 2007 time and 5 seconds quicker than Stoner's 2007 time on the Bridgestones, yet the Yam was still slower down the straight than the Duke?

Valentino Rossi
2007: 44' 15"927 (2nd)
2008: 44' 08"061 (1st) Difference: -7"9
Dani Pedrosa
2007: 44' 26"981 (4th)
2008: 44' 11"951 (2nd) Difference: -15"
Casey Stoner
2007: 44' 12"891 (1st)
2008: 44' 23"989 (3rd) Difference: +11"1

IMO the parity between Bridgestone and Michelin has been achieved by Michelin raising their game (and putting a reported additional 40% into their budget - hardly keeping costs down) and Bridgestone continuing to develop tyres with additional feedback from a very experienced development team, ie Rossi and Burgess.

Bridgestone have also been reported to be developing front qualifiers for the first time this year - again, not cost cutting.

With Stoner, he's failed to improve his time on last year for the last three races (he did at Qatar, but with much cooler temps), so I guess it may well be a problem with the Ducati setup as a whole, including how it uses the tyres.

Too much conspiracy theory, not enough supporting facts.

Let's see.

Rossi got:

a) 10 clicks in a straight line
a pneumatic engine that doesn't run out of fuel at half distance
c) time savings b/c he wasn't chucking the bike up the inside of Stoner every other lap. In 2007 Rossi looked like Edwards in 2008. Remember?

Pedrosa got:

a) huge midrange improvement
a chassis that actually flexes to help make use of the tires

What exactly do you think the governing body did for 3 days behind closed doors. Talk about the weather? If they did nothing, why don't they tell the press what went on behind closed doors?

At the very least they probably abolished progressive or multiple compound tires. This would have taken away the hard and grippy edges Bridgestone were reported to have. It would have slowed the improvement of cornerspeed as well. Dorna would have liked that.

Michelin upped their budget because they never developed proper tires. During the 990 era they custom made each batch as the important riders requested. They didn't have hard medium or soft, they just made that up for the media. 2007 proved they didn't have a clue what to do when they didn't have track data to tailor their tires.

Bridgestone upped their budget to make a Quali b/c they can't rely on superior construction for race wins. Now they need to qualify well to win.

The above would explain why the Bridgestone runners don't run well on Bridgestones, and the old Michelin runner (Rossi/Yamaha) runs them quite well.

Casey would have run well at Qatar b/c he opted for the harder compound and because the cooler track temperatures meant no one had high edge grip anyway.

Doesn't anyone else find it odd that the two manufacturers who built their bikes around B-stone (Ducati & Suzuki) suddenly can't seem to find a set up that makes them work?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ May 15 2008, 02:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Let's see.

Rossi got:

a) 10 clicks in a straight line
a pneumatic engine that doesn't run out of fuel at half distance
c) time savings b/c he wasn't chucking the bike up the inside of Stoner every other lap. In 2007 Rossi looked like Edwards in 2008. Remember?
ate
Pedrosa got:

a) huge midrange improvement
a chassis that actually flexes to help make use of the tires
Rossi was still 6 klicks down on Stoner in a straight line, yet he managed to beat Stoner's 2007 time by 5 seconds as I said. How did he do that if the Bridgestone tyres are dumbed down compared to last year?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ May 15 2008, 02:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What exactly do you think the governing body did for 3 days behind closed doors. Talk about the weather? If they did nothing, why don't they tell the press what went on behind closed doors?

At the very least they probably abolished progressive or multiple compound tires. This would have taken away the hard and grippy edges Bridgestone were reported to have. It would have slowed the improvement of cornerspeed as well. Dorna would have liked that.
Pure guesswork on your part - where are the facts that make what you are saying even likely? If Rossi was still 6 Klicks down on Stoners 2007 straight line speed where did he make up the 5 seconds over the race distance if not in the corners. Oops, there goes that theory too. Face it, there is no evidence for what you are suggesting. As michaelm said, whilst it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that Dorna/Ezy would try to rig stuff, "they are demonstrably too incompetent to do so, and certainly not capable of doing it secretly."

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon' d='May 15 2008, 02:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Michelin upped their budget because they never developed proper tires. During the 990 era they custom made each batch as the important riders requested. They didn't have hard medium or soft, they just made that up for the media. 2007 proved they didn't have a clue what to do when they didn't have track data to tailor their tires.

Bridgestone upped their budget to make a Quali b/c they can't rely on superior construction for race wins. Now they need to qualify well to win.

The above would explain why the Bridgestone runners don't run well on Bridgestones, and the old Michelin runner (Rossi/Yamaha) runs them quite well.
Michelin upped their budget by 40% because they decreased it by 30% in 2007.

How does Bridgestone making qualis affect the old Bstone runners, but not Rossi? Surely their race tyres are at least as good as last year, or are you really suggesting they have dumbed the tyres down?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ May 14 2008, 07:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Rossi was still 6 klicks down on Stoner in a straight line, yet he managed to beat Stoner's 2007 time by 5 seconds as I said. How did he do that if the Bridgestone tyres are dumbed down compared to last year?

Because Yamaha's were built to run Michelins. Yamaha use an aggressive steering rake to keep the bike off of it's edges.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Pure guesswork on your part - where are the facts that make what you are saying even likely?

Of course it's guess work (definitely not a pure guess though). They didn't hold a one man press conference. But the hilarity of the situation is that the general public assumes that nothing has changed. If you have a different theory that's fine, but arguing that the rules are being applied the same as they were last year is laughable.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>How does Bridgestone making qualis affect the old Bstone runners, but not Rossi? Surely their race tyres are at least as good as last year, or are you really suggesting they have dumbed the tyres down?

I'm saying Bridgestone's sudden obsession with Qualis stems from the fact they are no longer relying on their race compound technology to win. Why in God's name would they develop Qualis one year after winning 12/18 races? Obviously their competitive advantage in race compounds has been impaired in the long term so they need to work on their qualifying position to get results. We haven't heard jack about why they are working feverishly on qualis after years of ignoring them, and rumors link Rossi to Quali development, so the decision probably happened in the closed door meetings (Rossi was present for those meetings. WEIRD).

I don't think B-stone have done anything to dumb their tires down. I think everything was hammered out in the secret meeting. Whatever B-stone was exploiting was neutralized. The same way overnight fly-ins were neutralized.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ May 14 2008, 06:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Let's see.

Rossi got:

a) 10 clicks in a straight line
a pneumatic engine that doesn't run out of fuel at half distance
c) time savings b/c he wasn't chucking the bike up the inside of Stoner every other lap. In 2007 Rossi looked like Edwards in 2008. Remember?

Pedrosa got:

a) huge midrange improvement
a chassis that actually flexes to help make use of the tires

What exactly do you think the governing body did for 3 days behind closed doors. Talk about the weather? If they did nothing, why don't they tell the press what went on behind closed doors?

At the very least they probably abolished progressive or multiple compound tires. This would have taken away the hard and grippy edges Bridgestone were reported to have. It would have slowed the improvement of cornerspeed as well. Dorna would have liked that.

Michelin upped their budget because they never developed proper tires. During the 990 era they custom made each batch as the important riders requested. They didn't have hard medium or soft, they just made that up for the media. 2007 proved they didn't have a clue what to do when they didn't have track data to tailor their tires.

Bridgestone upped their budget to make a Quali b/c they can't rely on superior construction for race wins. Now they need to qualify well to win.

The above would explain why the Bridgestone runners don't run well on Bridgestones, and the old Michelin runner (Rossi/Yamaha) runs them quite well.

Casey would have run well at Qatar b/c he opted for the harder compound and because the cooler track temperatures meant no one had high edge grip anyway.

Doesn't anyone else find it odd that the two manufacturers who built their bikes around B-stone (Ducati & Suzuki) suddenly can't seem to find a set up that makes them work?

In quatar Stoner ran last years Bridgstone.

Oh wait damnit!.....I'm sorry Lex, I didn't mean to shoot your theory all to hell.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ May 15 2008, 04:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Because Yamaha's were built to run Michelins. Yamaha use an aggressive steering rake to keep the bike off of it's edges.
What has that to do with the fact that Rossi, on a Yamaha on Bridgestones, beat Stoner's 2007 time by 5 seconds? Are you saying that the edge grip of the Bridgestones is poor, and if so, how do you explain Hoppers lean angles on the Zook on Bridgestones last year?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ May 15 2008, 04:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Of course it's guess work (definitely not a pure guess though). They didn't hold a one man press conference. But the hilarity of the situation is that the general public assumes that nothing has changed. If you have a different theory that's fine, but arguing that the rules are being applied the same as they were last year is laughable.
The rules are changed - more tyres are allowed per weekend. Anything else is a conspiracy theory which only you seem to believe in. Give us some facts which appear to uphold your theory - I've pointed out a few that don't.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ May 15 2008, 04:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm saying Bridgestone's sudden obsession with Qualis stems from the fact they are no longer relying on their race compound technology to win. Why in God's name would they develop Qualis one year after winning 12/18 races? Obviously their competitive advantage in race compounds has been impaired in the long term so they need to work on their qualifying position to get results. We haven't heard jack about why they are working feverishly on qualis after years of ignoring them, and rumors link Rossi to Quali development, so the decision probably happened in the closed door meetings (Rossi was present for those meetings. WEIRD).
They are developing qualis 'cos Rossi asked for them. When that news broke Stoner went all sniffy and said he didn't need qualis - as long as he qualified on the first three rows he would be able to challenge for the win. Turns out, so far, that wasn't such a bright thing to say.

If they are not relying on the race tyres to win, how did Rossi manage just that after a race long fight with Pedrosa, producing faster and faster laps?

As far as winning 12/18 races, if you take Stoner out of that equation then they won 2 races without him. This is bike racing and the chances of missing races due to injury are not miniscule. Bridgestone want to retain the title in 2008 and decided to cover their bases by producing qualis for Rossi regardless of whether Stoner wanted them or not.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ May 15 2008, 04:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I don't think B-stone have done anything to dumb their tires down. I think everything was hammered out in the secret meeting. Whatever B-stone was exploiting was neutralized. The same way overnight fly-ins were neutralized.
Bridgestone was exploiting the fact that Michelin thought it'd be easy for them under the new rules and so cut their budget by 30%. That has indeed been neutralised by Michelin reinstating a decent budget for 2008, doubtless at least partially driven by the fact that Rossi went to their rivals.

If you reckon that the Stones are not dumbed down from last year then what are you trying to say here?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon)<div class='quotemain'>Doesn't anyone else find it odd that the two manufacturers who built their bikes around B-stone (Ducati & Suzuki) suddenly can't seem to find a set up that makes them work?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ May 15 2008, 04:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Bridgestone upped their budget to make a Quali b/c they can't rely on superior construction for race wins. Now they need to qualify well to win.
I would guess that anyone who stop development because they trust their "superior" technology will give them victory is out faster than you can say tire.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>The above would explain why the Bridgestone runners don't run well on Bridgestones, and the old Michelin runner (Rossi/Yamaha) runs them quite well.
How? To me it doesn't explain .... except from a few obvious shortcircuits in your logic.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (projekZERO @ May 14 2008, 08:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>In quatar Stoner ran last years Bridgstone.

Oh wait damnit!.....I'm sorry Lex, I didn't mean to shoot your theory all to hell.

I wasn't aware of that.

Seems you lack simple logic.

Thank you for placing the keystone in my argument. Bridgestone have changed the 08 compound and it is significantly different than the 2007 tire. Whatever Bridgestone runners were relying on in the past is now gone. The Bridgestone running teams didn't screw up their chassis dynamics, they've had the tire changed out from under them.

It may as well be written in stone. Dorna are manipulating the individual race results and they've spoken with the tire manufacturers to normalize compound construction.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ May 15 2008, 02:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I wasn't aware of that.

Seems you lack simple logic.

Thank you for placing the keystone in my argument. Bridgestone have changed the 08 compound and it is significantly different than the 2007 tire. Whatever Bridgestone runners were relying on in the past is now gone. The Bridgestone running teams didn't screw up their chassis dynamics, they've had the tire changed out from under them.

It may as well be written in stone. Dorna are manipulating the individual race results and they've spoken with the tire manufacturers to normalize compound construction.

So dorna are instructing Bridgestone and Michelin how to change/develop their tires?
And this caused that Michelins tires miraclously improved while Bridgestones got worse, except when Rossi ride them, the one that only had a few weekends after new year for testing and feedback?



BTw. B.stone started their development of a Q front tire last year and are still not finished. Compare that to your so called new breed of normlized tires that suddenly has appeard.

Everyone seems to have completely lost my points. Let me refresh so you will understand how nearly all of your counterpoints are basically solidifying my argument.

1. Bridgestones this year are much different (worse) than they were last year.
2. Bridgestone won't run the 2007 tire b/c it has been outlawed.
3. Apparently Stoner used the 2007 at Qatar, which reinforces that DORNA are manipulating (to the best of their ability) the individual race results with the tires.
4. Rossi is the best B-stone runner b/c he is their best rider and the Yamaha is set up to run Michelins which works because B-stone and Michelin have been normalized.
5. Dorna rely on your incompetence to allow them to do whatever they want.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ May 15 2008, 04:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So dorna are instructing Bridgestone and Michelin how to change/develop their tires?

Yes, because 8 months ago both of them were leaving. Michelin told Dorna they were leaving Bridgestone refused to supply the entire grid. Ezy brokered a deal that would allow both manufacturers to stay.

I think he either gave the manufacturers technical specifications and then let them build what they could (the F1 method but with multiple manufacturers) or he banned the use of multiple compounds within a single tire (i.e hard right, medium left, soft center, medium edges). Either way we know he wanted a control tire, but the fans wouldn't let him put it on the books.

Both manufacturers signed on. Both agreed because it will allow them to reduce their development budgets. Rossi was traded to Bridgestone to evenly split the 6 riders from the 3 manufacturers with dry wins in the 4-stroke era.

Everyone seems to think I'm angry about the change. I want a control tire, I know it will help Hayden in the long run. I'm only suggesting that the tire shenanigans are allowing Dorna to mess with the individual race results to spread the wins. That's how this whole thread got started.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ May 15 2008, 12:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Everyone seems to have completely lost my points. Let me refresh so you will understand how nearly all of your counterpoints are basically solidifying my argument.

1. Bridgestones this year are much different (worse) than they were last year.
2. Bridgestone won't run the 2007 tire b/c it has been outlawed.
3. Apparently Stoner used the 2007 at Qatar, which reinforces that DORNA are manipulating (to the best of their ability) the individual race results with the tires.
4. Rossi is the best B-stone runner b/c he is their best rider and the Yamaha is set up to run Michelins which works because B-stone and Michelin have been normalized.
5. Dorna rely on your incompetence to allow them to do whatever they want.
The problem I have with your argument is the idea that Dorna have successfully nobbled stoner. Given that they apparently devised the 800cc formula to reduce costs, promote closer racing and reduce the speed of the bikes in the interests of safety, I would expect any attempt by them to nobble stoner to have resulted in him winning all 4 races by 40 seconds .

Have they really banned the use of 2007 tyres though? I would find this very interesting if true.