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Espargaro to Yamaha?

thedeal
3502261367566698

You will find it's very different down here at Sandbanks old boy.


 


Dorset? Ooo eerrr guvnor! You lot are the ones that couldn't get into the Forest of Deane aren't you? 


 


Accents as thick as the cream you clot, you clot ;) (or is that Devon? Maybe you lot have a different set of peccadillos...)


 


I used to live about 50Mi from you, in the wilds of Wiltshite.
 
Jumkie
3502291367568389

 

Oh, and before I forget, a reply for my dancing monkey BJC, here is a fun fact.  Not all eyes on a TV (viewership) are created equal (Hes probably thinking, what was the point of this sentence). I wont rebut his ridiculously ignorant statements with words he probably will not understands unless he read them on wiki.  Especially regarding the American market (which Dorna seem so interested in for some reason...) or respond to his lame link of anti-Americanism, which Im sure he has memorized (if he didn't co-author it himself with MigAnal).  But looky here, a picture as they say speaks.etc.

 
Japan Fiscal Year 2012 Motorcycle Production Reports
Money U ....... ......png

 

Who gives a flying F if a bunch of poor peeps tune in, when every eye tuning in here is poised to buy .....  Let me get this straight, Oceania (whatever pile of .... islands that means) can get a nice viewership, but purchase .... (as they say).  Some things you just can't learn on wiki, namely, insight and intelligence.
Jumkie,

good points there. but look at at it this way. I went to Sepang last year. Sunday tickets were sold out on Saturday midday. Full. Lucky for us some French dude dropped us paddock passes (Sepang paddock is ....). Compared to my last visits in 06 and 10, when you could stroll in...

That market comes under Asia, not Oceania but compared to the static crowds numbers at PI and the declining market here. I know where I would spend my cash as a manufacturer. Prime time TV has Jorge adverts for whatever crappy 125 they sell in that market.

US might sell shitloads, but sportbikes have been floored. Look at Yamaha's Annual Report (that might bring Lex back into the conversation) The US market used to be hideously huge. Now? In decline.

But the Spsnish league stuff is spot on. Once upon a time, being hot stuff in Oz Sbk used to get you a 500 ride, now the talent pool and the cash has moved to Spain. Sucks but reality.
 
For me it would be interesting to see how he would go against Cal, would he be more consistent and actually achieve a win?
 
Big Jorge
3502441367577031

For me it would be interesting to see how he would go against Cal, would he be more consistent and actually achieve a win?


Only on a factory bike, he will be miles behind Call in his first year and no better from there on.
 
Jumkie
3502291367568389

Oh, and before I forget, a reply for my dancing monkey BJC, here is a fun fact.  Not all eyes on a TV (viewership) are created equal (Hes probably thinking, what was the point of this sentence). I won’t rebut his ridiculously ignorant statements with words he probably will not understand unless he read them on wiki.  Especially regarding the American market (which Dorna seem so interested in for some reason...) or respond to his lame link of anti-Americanism, which I’m sure he has memorized (if he didn't co-author it himself with MigAnal).  But looky here, a picture as they say speaks….etc.


 


Japan Fiscal Year 2012 Motorcycle Production Reports


attachicon.gif
Money U ....... ......png


 


Who gives a flying F if a bunch of poor peeps tune in, when every eye tuning in here is poised to buy .....  Let me get this straight, Oceania (whatever pile of .... islands that means) can get a nice viewership, but purchase .... (as they say).  Some things you just can't learn on wiki, namely, insight and intelligence.


Funny as f...
 
Garbin
3500401367427063

That seems to be related more to your inexplicable dislike of Cal Crutchlow than anything to do with "racin".  Just when did Cal run over your family pet/ sleep with your wife /machine gun down your family?


trgr.png
 
BJ.C
3502051367540638

A: Don't go bringing nationalism and patriotism into what was clearly a windup to a completely clueless poster. But... don't over-estimate your worth to Dorna as a cash cow. Your broadcasters don't pay .... - that's why Speed don't give a .... and your coverage is so awful. Don't you think if the US had paid twenty million or so for the rights that they would make an effort to recoup that expenditure? The reason coverage is dire is because they got it for peanuts. That's the way broadcasters work. The sheer size of your population doesn't matter when most of them know nothing of the sport and don't watch it. The biggest markets for Dorna are Spain, France, Germany, UK, Italy, Japan and now, India, SE Asia (in general... a big market) The total profit for Dorna in 2010 was around 5.5M Euros on 250M Euros in revenue, that has ramped up in the last couple of years by 12% but none of that came from the US. If MotoGP was really going to take hold in the US, it would have done so in the 'golden years' of Rainey, Schwantz, Roberts and certainly with your latest champion, Hayden - but it didn't. After the initial numbers were up for Indy and Laguna, post-Hayden, they have been dropping and maybe numbers are up on TV, but only marginally as people that might have ventured to a track save money and watch it from the Barcalounger. Mainstream coverage has been tried on the major networks before and been found to be wanting. Fox now has a multi-year deal, but that isn't so much because they are big fans of bike racing, but because they needed to fill the gaps in their new Fox Sports channel. They can now advertise that they have everything major in the world - but what happens when F1 or Nascar or Indy clashes with MotoGP? We get Fox Sports here now (used to be ESPN but got rebranded this year) and if there is ever a conflict, MotoGP disappears to be shown at 3am on a tuesday. FIC (Fox International Channels) says ESPN was in 100M homes in Asia and they haven't even begun a push into China yet - but are planning it for 2015. There are 3.000 TV stations and more than half a billion sets in China right now. So just how much of a market is the US? It's a potential market - but potential doesn't put potatoes on the table... you can be in 100M homes, but if only .05% of viewers are watching, you may as well be showing clouds.


 


2: I've been to a few tracks over the years, but nothing more recent than 2001 - I refuse to transit the US after the imposition of the 'treat-em-like-a-criminal-lock-em-up-in-holding' TSA gestapo took over as the external face of your country. I don't need the extra 10kgs baggage allowance as much as I want to withhold the ten-to-thirty thousand dollars I spend in travel each year to make a point. Your tracks are either pretty and unsafe or safe and look like an abandoned airfield and are in the middle of nowhere with nothing but sand and snakes all around ;) The facilities for bike racing at most of your tracks is lamented by your own motorcycle racing associations, so don't piss in my pocket and tell me it's raining - ask the guys that put it on the line what your tracks are like. How many great tracks are there in the UK? I suggest you watch BSB -and they don't even go to all the tracks that would qualify - there are a lot. Not that I know why you brought the UK into an argument with an Aussie about the dire state of GP racing in the US but then I have never found logic to be something best brought to a discussion with Americans (including USA'ers).


 


Here, this might be a good time to let you into a secret: http://bananenplanet.wordpress.com/2012/07/17/10-things-most-americans-dont-know-about-america/


It's nothing to do with "nationalism". I'm talking about the actual track itself - the one the riders race on. The paddock facilities at some tracks are not as good as the top facilities at some European tracks - but the tracks themselves are challenging and safe enough to ride at. It's nice to have British garden quality lawns all about - but that's not what racing is about. I only mentioned British tracks to point out that there are that many of them that are capable of hosting a GP.  Britain being the size of NY State may have more bike fans per square mile but we make up for it by virtue of sheer size. If you actually know how much each country is paying for re-broadcast rights - kindly post a link. Fox/Speed do a .... job of covering bike racing - simply because they're a .... company; it has nothing to do with how much they pay for the rights.


 


By lumping me in with the usual jingoistic rednecks that believe everything American is great - you seriously misjudge me. I've actually been to many of the racing facilities in the US as a club racer, so naturally I discount all the bad-mouthing of said facilities by people who've never actually visited them. Could be US tracks rough-around-the-edges quality, that brings out the hard-..., cowboy competitiveness that has bred so many champions.


 


Your unfortunate experience with airports isn't really relevant. I've had miserable times at airports all around the world. Airports are generally not fun places.
 
Jumkie, I think you're a little too quick with the "boohoo, it's all anti-Americanism"-stuff. In terms of selling the sport, it appears to me a simple reality that the US cannot compete with Spain or Italy as a potential market. Attendance figures and television ratings pretty much tell that story.

You bring in motorcycle sales. If I were a Japanese manufacturer, I know where I would be looking to grow my export, and it would be neither Europe or North America. By the way, how much of the motorcycle sales in the US do you think actually represent a segment that would benefit from increased motogp exposure?

I agree that the competition is skewed to help certain nations along. Three particularly come to my mind: Italy, Spain... can you guess the third? If in doubt, look at the distribution of rider nationalities on the grid at the moment, and at the number of races in various countries.

For someone like me, who is neither American, Italian or Spanish, seeing people from one of these countries complain about perceived favouritisms shown to the other two feels a bit like hearing the maffia complain about the criminal conduct of the Cribs.
 
Jumkie
3502271367567441

Austin my friend (and I know I'm gonna get a bit in trouble with Krops (though I know both you boys being good Christians will forgive me), we may just have to agree to disagree on this one, but, allow me to make a case (btw BJC made a similar case on another thread, but I didn’t respond to him because frankly I think hes an ....., not to mention a MigsAnal rehash of anti-American sentiment); nonetheless, I’m not buying there is NO favoritism in MotoGP-Dorna for Spanish riders (sorry for the double negative dude, must drive you crazy, hehe).  I am not buying Spanish racers are the best skilled and or talented in the world.  What exactly would lead us to believe this in the first place?  Somehow I’m not convinced the CEV is the greatest league on the planet turning out great riders simply because they keep appearing in MotoGP.  I would submit to you this IS by design.  All the Spanish riders keep landing on the best teams and equipment (conspicuously with Reposl banners), then we are going to point out they have the best records?  The lessons of ‘parity’ in GP should be plenty clear from the last two years ). 
 
DORNA runs the CEV! (I would repeat this 10x).  http://www.dorna.com/dorna_thecompany.html  (And for others reading this, let me explain, the Spanish National racing series, that is, the Spanish counterparts to the UK’s BSB (that everybody has seen & heard of) or US’s AMA (that everybody has heard of and some seen), or Europe’s (let’s face it) WSBK/WSS (that everybody has heard of & seen), well… the CEV (known specifically as “CEV Repsol”, yup that’s right, its even their URL address cevrepsol.com) is RUN BY DORNA! Just out of curiosity, when was the last time anybody reading this saw a CEV Repsol race?  That their subsidiary riders then appear in the next steps of the parent Company/League, run by the same people, should NOT lead one to conclude that these riders are the best by virtue of their participation in GP (especially given the nature of their participation is almost always on the best equipment).  Friend, allow me to quote Dovi, ‘GP is not a meritocracy.’
 
As I see it, the sport has been HIGHJACKED!  Nothing less.  The CEV rightly would be ranked behind BSB, WSBK/WSS, and marginally lateral to the AMA (that’s only given the reality of the poor state our national series is in at the moment).  YET, the overwhelming preponderance of riders “promoted” into the lower categories of MotoGP are from the Spanish ranks and NOT BSB, WSBK/WSS. When we do get somebody from these other series its big news.  Meanwhile the numbers are made up by Spanish riders, a conveyor-belt steadily filling the top ranks of GP.  How then we can conclude that there is no Spanish favoritism and rather they are promoted solely on merit, where riders who have ridden in other highly competitive series rarely make the cut, is unlikely at best! Frankly, I am reminded of an editorial I read many years ago by Jim Lampley (yes the boxing announcer) a piece titled “The Biggest Story of our Lives.”  In it he describes the highly unlikely probabilities that lead one to the unmistakable conclusion of rigging. (Regardless of anybody’s politics, when the outliers are so prevalent, the dots connect themselves.)  Again, it looks like we certainly disagree mi gran amigo.  And believe you me, your opinion in my eyes is right up there with The Oracle of GP, as I could honestly sit around and pay for the privilege of hearing you two talk GP for the sheer tickle; however, I believe there is no less rigging of the sport in favor of Spanish first participants.  (This is the abbreviated version).
 
But allow me to say a little bit more, in contrast to the CEV.  There are a few riders in the lower categories currently racing that have participated in the Red Bull rookies cup (just off top of my head, non-Spanish riders who have moved on: Danny Kent, Arthur Sissis, I think there is another name Stradford, not sure if Bradley is one, and I’m sure there are a few more) yet to date, none are American (despite them wining championships, in both the America’s cup and the Euro cup)!  Ask yourself, where might these cup winners be today had they been Spanish?  Look what a similar contest did for Pedrosa.  You look at the ranks of Moto3 and Moto2, we are talking about a cluster of Spanish prospects moving right along.  The UK started something similar, the ACU (Academy Cup), most notable graduate I suppose is Cal Crutchlow.  My Brit friends will have to forgive me, but personally I don’t rate Cal as thee UK’s brightest talent, above average yes, UK’s best…debatable.  Nonetheless, he was promoted into the series, and I would note, rather atypical (as usually riders from superbike classes have to at least win a title in the premier class of a given series).  I must honestly defer rating Cal, as I didn't follow him closely.  All I remember is he won a WSS with Buckmaster's outfit.  And frankly, somebody must have seen something special, as I am reminded of those who scouted John Hopkins.  In a similar vein I suppose, lower category title winners who were promoted to the Big Time.  After two years, look at Cal now, riding near the front, (tis what happens when you vie somebody a chance, of which the Spanish due in spades)... given a top tier machine of course (we can never escape parity, and I’ll add, its always a litmus test on separating the wiki bandits from those who follow the nuance of racing).  Moving along, the UK has a cluster of excellent talent, just to name a few (and I will admit here, I might be talking a bit beyond my depth) but: S. Lowes (which will have to prove himself in the big boy class), S. Byrne (yeah old but dude still has it) E. Laverty, T. Sykes, L. Camier, C. Davies, and my sentimental fav L. Haslam.  I’ll even throw in Josh Brooks (though hes an Aussie).  I won’t bore you with a few American names who I think might make the cut.  However, I find it hard to believe that these racers, who also like the Spanish, start off racing as young kids, have not the skills to make it onto the world stage of GP and hold their own with the Spanish contigent (regardless that their craft is mainly on superbikes as oppose to 125s/250s or their 4 stroke equivalent).  If this list of riders were Spanish, they’d all be in GP by now!
 
You know, I could go on and on.  As I was typing this I remembered and article I read in American Motorcyclist dated something like 1983-84ish.  It had a piece in it about why Americans dominated the world stage at the time.  No, it wasn’t because GP was an American company, sponsored by American oil companies, it had a very different take.  And one that I think speaks to today’s situation with quiet relevance.  If I can find it, I’ll pull it up.  I think you will find it interesting.


 


I can't argue with your "the dots connect themselves" sentiment. Is it Dorna who's really graduating Spanish stars through the ranks? Are they subsidizing young riders' seats in the way the BBC was paying for British talent to get on TV? I'm not convinced. I will concede, however, that it's entirely possible and quite likely that a number of the best seats in the lower ranks are being exposed solely to the CEV and the teams providing those seats likely are funded by corporations with Spanish interest. Valid point there.


 


However, and I will preface this by saying that I've not paid any attention whatsoever to the championships in Italy, Japan, Australia, or whatever other major championship you want to consider, but I like to think I have a somewhat-decent handle on what's happening in the AMA, BSB, and World Supers/WSS. My opinion is that the few graduates from these series who've earned a seat at the next level haven't achieved. I'm not convinced there's anyone in any of those three series who could head to MotoGP and be successful even if given the right equipment. I see a lot of retreads in all three places; guys teams can rely on to finish without wrecking the bike and keep sponsors happy. And, frankly, if you look at some of the guys in these series who are successful and have had experience in grands prix—Laverty, Davies, Byrne, Ellison—they never did much of anything in the big show, granted they never were given the best of machinery.


 


For me, I think the biggest issue facing American and British riders—maybe this applies to other domestic championships, too, I wouldn't claim to know—is that there isn't enough promotion of young talent. I've seen the entrant list for Superbike in the AMA, and there aren't a lot of big names. Why hasn't anyone taken a chance on guys like Cameron Beaubier, Jake Gagne, or JD Beach? And in a couple of years, Benny. These are kids with European pedigree and they're being overlooked in their own domestic championship. Until the domestic championships can get their acts together, I just don't envision a way in which talent can be noticed on a global scale until it's too late, as has happened with Josh Hayes. (The man deserves a full factory seat in World Supers.)
 
Excellent response Austin. Agree man. I can even add to what you said about our anemic promoting of US riders, as I have personal experience trying to get businesses with significant marketing budgets to give a rats ... about kids ready to eat their own guts to succeed in the sport. Errr!

 
Dr No
3502421367573277

 I know where I would spend my cash as a manufacturer. Prime time TV has Jorge adverts for whatever crappy 125 they sell in that market.

US might sell shitloads, but sportbikes have been floored. Look at Yamaha's Annual Report (that might bring Lex back into the conversation) The US market used to be hideously huge. Now? In decline.


But the Spsnish league stuff is spot on. Once upon a time, being hot stuff in Oz Sbk used to get you a 500 ride, now the talent pool and the cash has moved to Spain. Sucks but reality.


 

Agree good sir.  That does seem to be where the future of potential sales is expanding.  Certainly, there has been a decline US (but as you can see from the graph, its still considerable, where a "decline" in the US only means its still consuming head and shoulders more than entire global regions).  I was actually up late last night (as you could probably tell, haha) and found some great info about sales and market trends.  Looks like China is the place to sell (I know, not news).  Maybe the Dorna guys are lagging behind by a few years?...given there is no GPs in China (currently).  Or they are still tying to cash in on the willingness of US peeps to go into debt to buy toys.  In one report I read that sportbike sales had declined for everybody except BMW & Duc (or the non-Japanese manufactures).  Doc, I think it was you who posted this old article from a magazine (right?)  That prompted me to look around for old magazines, I found a few but (and I really don't even want to type this, but somebody who will remain nameless, on a fateful spring cleaning day, threw out a bunch of old mags I had in a dusty box in the attic (I .... you not, I almost cried).  I would just as soon preferred losing mu wedding pics to a fire.  Anyway, I recall reading about a few hard-..... back in the day. Forgive me if I insult your knowledge of Oz history, but have you heard of a dude named Kevin Caruthers? Americans who know their .... about racing history love this dude (or should love him).  This name stands out because it was a name that appears again and again in the mags from back in the day (yes, way before my time, but when I was 18, I went crazy about motorcycles, and being from the US, there was NOTHING to watch only read).  So...the names that fascinated me came from two countries: US and Australia.  Anyway, this cat Caruthers came to the US to mentor a few Americans, perhaps you might recognize  these names: Kenny Roberts Sr. & Eddie Lawson.  So, I have always had a soft spot for Aussies (sorry my Brit brothers, hehe).  And more to the point that I will make below to Stiefel..

 
stiefel
3502601367590435

Jumkie, I think you're a little too quick with the "boohoo, it's all anti-Americanism"-stuff. In terms of selling the sport, it appears to me a simple reality that the US cannot compete with Spain or Italy as a potential market. Attendance figures and television ratings pretty much tell that story.


You bring in motorcycle sales. If I were a Japanese manufacturer, I know where I would be looking to grow my export, and it would be neither Europe or North America. By the way, how much of the motorcycle sales in the US do you think actually represent a segment that would benefit from increased motogp exposure?


I agree that the competition is skewed to help certain nations along. Three particularly come to my mind: Italy, Spain... can you guess the third? If in doubt, look at the distribution of rider nationalities on the grid at the moment, and at the number of races in various countries.


For someone like me, who is neither American, Italian or Spanish, seeing people from one of these countries complain about perceived favouritisms shown to the other two feels a bit like hearing the maffia complain about the criminal conduct of the Cribs.


 

 

You make many good points.  First, my anti-Ameri thingy was two fold, one was directed at my puppet BJC, so you can ignore that one.  My other point about the Dorna HQ Madrid (next door to Repsol HQ Madrid) favoring Spanish riders was more about 'anti-non-Euros' rather than anti-US riders'.  Because, as I was telling DocN above, I'd lump Aussies as marginalized as well.  Stief, I've never asked, but are you German? Not that it matters, but you are correct in that Americans shouldn't be complaining about representation in MotoGP...perhaps.  We sure have had our run of chaps since the 2000s, KRjr, Edwards, Hopper, Hayden, Spies, and Bostrom (haha, I just added Bostrom to .... with JK).  Ok, so you are right, we shouldnt complain..right?  Except, let me just say a couple of things in my defense of whining.  All those riders were given a turn at the big dance after accomplishing something significant outside of GP itself (what I mean by significant is at least a big boy category title in respective series, maybe with exception of Hopper, though in his defense he was an AMA Formula Extreme champ, which was a badass spec of racing, at some rediculious age like 16+, AND that only earned him an opportunity to ride one of the shittiest machines at the wrong time during a formula transition, a Red Bull 500cc (hangover, as the forumla was going to 2-stroke) that was ejecting him and Gary McCoy into oblivion...for ..... and giggles look back to see the injuries that ride produced, while today we see them getting on premiere class machines and ride away like the wind, thank you electogizmos). So for Americans to EARN an opportunity in GP, they need to come with serious credentials.  I'd say its very similar with Aussies (as both of us are a continent apart and rather un-rated in Europe) and have to really go far beyond to impress somebody willing ti give these gritty kids a chance. (Btw, while I'm on a rant, this also applies to Brits to a less extent, see my rant about Brit riders I wrote to Austin).   I mentioned Kevin Caruthers to Doc No above, I really do wonder how many people ever heard of him, even though he was a major figure in the sport.  Most of us have heard of names like: Doohan, Garner, Bayliss , Beatie, and my personal fav, McCoy (btw, Mat Mladin could have been among the great Aussies but he really was a sell-out for the money.  I'll never forget he once said, 'why would I got race in Europe if they are paying me $50,000 a race in the US?).  Oh and Vermulen (nice guy award). Sorry, tangent, ok, now contrast this with the new Spanish stacking of the field, who are promoted into the GP lower categories via a mini-bike titles, participation (not actually winning it) in the Red Bull rookies cup, and of course CEV.  Then...we start to become familiar with these names and become conditioned to think these must be the best riders in the world deserving of MotoGP seat, ie Espargaros.  Without looking it up, can you tell me how many races A. Espargaro has won? (I had to look it up too, but cause I thought, surely he's won something, I mean, people are mentioning his name to replace 'World Champions' because his name 'appears' often (yes, that seems to be enough).  But what has he won?  As you know Stief, this is the most annoying thing for me regarding people’s takes.  Somehow because this guy leads this ........ CRTs (which we have NO reasonable way of knowing the real parity between these entries) we think hes done something because his bike keeps appearing in Parc Ferme like two dicks on a bike.  We automatically think, oh, Alexis Espargaro is top of the CRTs, therefore, he must be the best of that class. Not knowing if say the Forward Racing machines or (take your pick) are the DucatiGP versions of CRTs.  I met this kid Yonny Hernandez (Columbian) at the airport in Austin (who has a smoking hot girlfriend, but I know you are not interested in that sort of thing).  Anyway, Hernandez “podiumed” in the CRT class at COTA (yes, he was the third CRT finisher).  Maybe we should start linking him to factory satellite seats now that Silly Season has already started.  Why not, right? 

 

Am I making my point?  The Spanish stack the field with their riders, good, decent, and ........ riders, get on the best bikes, don’t really accomplish anything ‘really’ significant (sorry Alberto Puig) and their records then start to be ‘artificially’ padded by virtue of the lacking parity structure, their names get tossed around, and bam, welcome to MotoGP your factory ride awaits you sir.  (I’m aware my friends will call “conspiracy-tin hat” monger on me, and they would be partially correct, as I really do have such a disposition.  Its all good.
 
thedeal
3502721367596351

Sent via pm, Hope you like and if you ever get to the brit gp buddy you can try the real thing.


 


Thank you kind sir.  Where were you during the last two times I visited? Wsbk & GP at Shiverstone?
 
bluegreen
3500531367431404

Why the hell doesn't Brent McCormick have a ride? Dude was a champ in WSBK last year. 


 


 Already know the answer, but if people are going to ..... about a very old wooden ship why not add some countries that have zero representation? Americans? I love the country, but there are already 2.5 in motoGP right now. Brent would be awesome. The American fans may even adopt him as a funny talking cousin.   


If he was champ in Word Supers, why did he use the name Max Biaggi? He is the ly WSBK champ i heard of last year.
 
Jumkie
3503231367606415

Excellent response Austin. Agree man. I can even add to what you said about our anemic promoting of US riders, as I have personal experience trying to get businesses with significant marketing budgets to give a rats ... about kids are ready to eat their own guts to succeed in the sport. Errr!

 
Agree good sir.  That does seem to be where the future of potential sales is expanding.  Certainly, there has been a decline US (but as you can see from the graph, its still considerable).  I was actually up late last night (as you could probably tell, haha) and found some great info about sales and market trends.  Looks like China is the place to sell (I know, not news).  Maybe the Dorna guys are lagging behind by a few years?...given there is no GPs in China (currently).  Or they are still tying to cash in on the willingness of US peeps to go into debt to buy toys.  In one report I read that sportbike sales had declined for everybody except BMW & Duc (or the non-Japanese manufactures).  Doc, I think it was you who posted this old article from a magazine (right?)  That prompted me to look around for old magazines, I found a few but (and I really don't even want to type this, but somebody who will remain nameless, on a fateful spring cleaning day, threw out a bunch of old mags I had in a dusty box in the attic (I .... you not, I almost cried).  I would just as soon preferred losing mu wedding pics to a fire.  Anyway, I recall reading about a few hard-..... back in the day. Forgive me if I insult your knowledge of Oz history, but have you heard of a dude named Kevin Caruthers? Americans who know their .... about racing history love this dude (or should love him).  This name stands out because it was a name that appears again and again in the mags from back in the day (yes, way before my time, but when I was 18, I went crazy about motorcycles, and being from the US, there was NOTHING to watch only read).  So...the names that fascinated me came from two countries: US and Australia.  Anyway, this cat Caruthers came to the US to mentor a few Americans, perhaps you might recognize  these names: Kenny Roberts Sr. & Eddie Lawson.  So, I have always had a soft spot for Aussies (sorry my Brit brothers, hehe).  And more to the point that I will make below to Stiefel..
   
 
You make many good points.  First, my anti-Ameri thingy was two fold, one was directed at my puppet BJC, so you can ignore that one.  My other point about the Dorna HQ Madrid (next door to Repsol HQ Madrid) favoring Spanish riders was more about 'anti-non-Euros' rather than anti-US riders'.  Because, as I was telling DocN above, I'd lump Aussies as marginalized as well.  Stief, I've never asked, but are you German? Not that it matters, but you are correct in that Americans shouldn't be complaining about representation in MotoGP...perhaps.  We sure have had our run of chaps since the 2000s, KRjr, Edwards, Hopper, Hayden, Spies, and Bostrom (haha, I just added Bostrom to .... with JK).  Ok, so you are right, we shouldnt complain..right?  Except, let me just say a couple of things in my defense of whining.  All those riders were given a turn at the big dance after accomplishing something significant outside of GP itself (what I mean by significant is at least a big boy category title in respective series, maybe with exception of Hopper, though in his defense he was a Formula Extreme champ, which was a badass spec of racing, at some rediculious age like 16+, AND that only got him an opportunity to ride a 500cc that was ejecting him and Gary McCoy into oblivion...for ..... and giggles look back to see the injuries that ride produced, while today we see them getting on premiere class machines and ride away like the wind, thank you electogizmos). So for Americans to get an opportunity in GP, they need to come with serious credentials.  I'd say its very similar with Aussies (as both of us are a continent apart and rather un-rated in Europe) and have to really go far beyond to impress somebody willing ti give these gritty kids a chance. (Btw, while I'm on a rant, this also applies to Brits to a less extent, see my rant about Brit riders I wrote to Austin).   I mentioned Kevin Caruthers to Doc No above, I really do wonder how many people ever heard of him, even though he was a major figure in the sport.  Most of us have heard of names like: Doohan, Garner, Bayliss , Beatie, and my personal fav, McCoy (btw, Mat Mladin could have been among the great Aussies but he really was a sell-out for the money.  I'll never forget he once said, 'why would I got race in Europe if they are paying me $50,000 a race in the US?).  Oh and Vermulen (nice guy award). Sorry, tangent, ok, now contrast this with the new Spanish stacking of the field, who are promoted into the GP lower categories via a mini-bike titles, participation (not actually winning it) in the Red Bull rookies cup, and of course CEV.  Then...we start to become familiar with these names and become conditioned to think these must be the best riders in the world deserving of MotoGP seat, ie Espargaros.  Without looking it up, can you tell me how many races A. Espargaro has won? (I had to look it up too, but cause I thought, surely he's won something, I mean, people are mentioning his name to replace 'World Champions' because his name 'appears' often (yes, that seems to be enough).  But what has he won?  As you know Stief, this is the most annoying thing for me regarding people’s takes.  Somehow because this guy leads this ........ CRTs (which we have NO reasonable way of knowing the real parity between these entries) we think hes done something because his bike keeps appearing in Parc Ferme like two dicks on a bike.  We automatically think, oh, Alexis Espargaro is top of the CRTs, therefore, he must be the best of that class. Not knowing if say the Forward Racing machines or (take your pick) are the DucatiGP versions of CRTs.  I met this kid Yonny Hernandez (Columbian) at the airport in Austin (who has a smoking hot girlfriend, but I know you are not interested in that sort of thing).  Anyway, Hernandez “podiumed” in the CRT class at COTA (yes, he was the third CRT finisher).  Maybe we should start linking him to factory satellite seats now that Silly Season has already started.  Why not, right? 
 
Am I making my point?  The Spanish stack the field with their riders, good, decent, and ........ riders, get on the best bikes, don’t really accomplish anything ‘really’ significant (sorry Alberto Puig) and their records then start to be ‘artificially’ padded by virtue of the lacking parity structure, their names get tossed around, and bam, welcome to MotoGP your factory ride awaits you sir.  (I’m aware my friends will call “conspiracy-tin hat” monger on me, and they would be partially correct, as I really do have such a disposition.  Its all good.
I think we have very different opinion about the competition within the gp feeder series compared to the your national series. In my opinion, those are very different talent pools. Winning in 125's and 250's, and in todays moto3 and moto2 classes means you have to take on a very big field of very talented riders who have been brought up from the ages of 4-5 on the back of a motorbike. Who did Hayden and Spies have to beat? Mladin. Great rider in his day, but also past his peak, and one that never did make it in gp's. So yeah, guys from outside the paddock have to do something special to prove their worth. That's not exclusive to American riders either. As a matter of fact, it seems that only Americans and Brits are given the opportunity to make the crossover.

On a tangent, have you ever given thought to the fact that Edwards, Hayden and Spies have been given stints on factory a Honda of Yamaha? 2 SBK champions, 1 AMA champion. The only one that did anything with their ride was Hayden, and to be honest, aside from the 2006 championship, he's done preciously little with it. Not to mention the other 2. How would you judge their results if they weren't American?

Perhaps you've missed it, but I've followed Aleix' career throught his time in the lower classes. He has always struck me as an exceptionally talented rider that had a lot of bad luck. Show me an American rider that a teamboss would be better off considering at the moment. Edwards? Hayden? Spies? Anyone else?
 
Jumkie
3503231367606415

Excellent response Austin. Agree man. I can even add to what you said about our anemic promoting of US riders, as I have personal experience trying to get businesses with significant marketing budgets to give a rats ... about kids ready to eat their own guts to succeed in the sport. Errr!

 


 

Agree good sir.  That does seem to be where the future of potential sales is expanding.  Certainly, there has been a decline US (but as you can see from the graph, its still considerable).  I was actually up late last night (as you could probably tell, haha) and found some great info about sales and market trends.  Looks like China is the place to sell (I know, not news).  Maybe the Dorna guys are lagging behind by a few years?...given there is no GPs in China (currently).  Or they are still tying to cash in on the willingness of US peeps to go into debt to buy toys.  In one report I read that sportbike sales had declined for everybody except BMW & Duc (or the non-Japanese manufactures).  Doc, I think it was you who posted this old article from a magazine (right?)  That prompted me to look around for old magazines, I found a few but (and I really don't even want to type this, but somebody who will remain nameless, on a fateful spring cleaning day, threw out a bunch of old mags I had in a dusty box in the attic (I .... you not, I almost cried).  I would just as soon preferred losing mu wedding pics to a fire.  Anyway, I recall reading about a few hard-..... back in the day. Forgive me if I insult your knowledge of Oz history, but have you heard of a dude named Kevin Caruthers? Americans who know their .... about racing history love this dude (or should love him).  This name stands out because it was a name that appears again and again in the mags from back in the day (yes, way before my time, but when I was 18, I went crazy about motorcycles, and being from the US, there was NOTHING to watch only read).  So...the names that fascinated me came from two countries: US and Australia.  Anyway, this cat Caruthers came to the US to mentor a few Americans, perhaps you might recognize  these names: Kenny Roberts Sr. & Eddie Lawson.  So, I have always had a soft spot for Aussies (sorry my Brit brothers, hehe).  And more to the point that I will make below to Stiefel..

 


 

 

You make many good points.  First, my anti-Ameri thingy was two fold, one was directed at my puppet BJC, so you can ignore that one.  My other point about the Dorna HQ Madrid (next door to Repsol HQ Madrid) favoring Spanish riders was more about 'anti-non-Euros' rather than anti-US riders'.  Because, as I was telling DocN above, I'd lump Aussies as marginalized as well.  Stief, I've never asked, but are you German? Not that it matters, but you are correct in that Americans shouldn't be complaining about representation in MotoGP...perhaps.  We sure have had our run of chaps since the 2000s, KRjr, Edwards, Hopper, Hayden, Spies, and Bostrom (haha, I just added Bostrom to .... with JK).  Ok, so you are right, we shouldnt complain..right?  Except, let me just say a couple of things in my defense of whining.  All those riders were given a turn at the big dance after accomplishing something significant outside of GP itself (what I mean by significant is at least a big boy category title in respective series, maybe with exception of Hopper, though in his defense he was a Formula Extreme champ, which was a badass spec of racing, at some rediculious age like 16+, AND that only got him an opportunity to ride a 500cc that was ejecting him and Gary McCoy into oblivion...for ..... and giggles look back to see the injuries that ride produced, while today we see them getting on premiere class machines and ride away like the wind, thank you electogizmos). So for Americans to get an opportunity in GP, they need to come with serious credentials.  I'd say its very similar with Aussies (as both of us are a continent apart and rather un-rated in Europe) and have to really go far beyond to impress somebody willing ti give these gritty kids a chance. (Btw, while I'm on a rant, this also applies to Brits to a less extent, see my rant about Brit riders I wrote to Austin).   I mentioned Kevin Caruthers to Doc No above, I really do wonder how many people ever heard of him, even though he was a major figure in the sport.  Most of us have heard of names like: Doohan, Garner, Bayliss , Beatie, and my personal fav, McCoy (btw, Mat Mladin could have been among the great Aussies but he really was a sell-out for the money.  I'll never forget he once said, 'why would I got race in Europe if they are paying me $50,000 a race in the US?).  Oh and Vermulen (nice guy award). Sorry, tangent, ok, now contrast this with the new Spanish stacking of the field, who are promoted into the GP lower categories via a mini-bike titles, participation (not actually winning it) in the Red Bull rookies cup, and of course CEV.  Then...we start to become familiar with these names and become conditioned to think these must be the best riders in the world deserving of MotoGP seat, ie Espargaros.  Without looking it up, can you tell me how many races A. Espargaro has won? (I had to look it up too, but cause I thought, surely he's won something, I mean, people are mentioning his name to replace 'World Champions' because his name 'appears' often (yes, that seems to be enough).  But what has he won?  As you know Stief, this is the most annoying thing for me regarding people’s takes.  Somehow because this guy leads this ........ CRTs (which we have NO reasonable way of knowing the real parity between these entries) we think hes done something because his bike keeps appearing in Parc Ferme like two dicks on a bike.  We automatically think, oh, Alexis Espargaro is top of the CRTs, therefore, he must be the best of that class. Not knowing if say the Forward Racing machines or (take your pick) are the DucatiGP versions of CRTs.  I met this kid Yonny Hernandez (Columbian) at the airport in Austin (who has a smoking hot girlfriend, but I know you are not interested in that sort of thing).  Anyway, Hernandez “podiumed” in the CRT class at COTA (yes, he was the third CRT finisher).  Maybe we should start linking him to factory satellite seats now that Silly Season has already started.  Why not, right? 

 

Am I making my point?  The Spanish stack the field with their riders, good, decent, and ........ riders, get on the best bikes, don’t really accomplish anything ‘really’ significant (sorry Alberto Puig) and their records then start to be ‘artificially’ padded by virtue of the lacking parity structure, their names get tossed around, and bam, welcome to MotoGP your factory ride awaits you sir.  (I’m aware my friends will call “conspiracy-tin hat” monger on me, and they would be partially correct, as I really do have such a disposition.  Its all good.


Mladin and  DuHamel were 2 no marks from gp who went for the cash in the States, because they couldnt cut it . Some of the interviews i read with DuHamel all he spoke about was money.
 
stiefel
3503301367607805

Who did Hayden and Spies have to beat? Mladin. Great rider in his day, but also past his peak, and one that never did make it in gp's.


 
basspete
3503311367608084

Mladin and  DuHamel were 2 no marks from gp who went for the cash in the States, because they couldnt cut it . Some of the interviews i read with DuHamel all he spoke about was money.


 


Duhamel, sure, probably wouldn't have lasted long in GPs had he stuck around to find out. Honda paid him good money to lose to Mladin for a long time. (I think he only won one AMA Superbike championship back in 1996 or something like that—Wiki tells me it was '95.) He was great on a 600, and a respectable domestic superbike guy, but didn't have much of a world-championship future. (I might liken him to Michael Rutter, only better.)


 


Mat Mladin, on the other hand, was a guy who I firmly believe could've been a multi-time World Superbike champion and probably could've made a respectable living in grand prix. I remember rumors in the early days of the four-stroke era that at least one reputable satellite team was after him because of his abilities on a superbike. But, as Jum has pointed out, he wasn't interested because American Suzuki was paying him what the factory boys in GPs were making. To top it off, his attitude makes Stoner look ambassadorial.
 
stiefel
3503301367607805

I think we have very different opinion about the competition within the gp feeder series compared to the your national series. In my opinion, those are very different talent pools. Winning in 125's and 250's, and in todays moto3 and moto2 classes means you have to take on a very big field of very talented riders who have been brought up from the ages of 4-5 on the back of a motorbike. Who did Hayden and Spies have to beat? Mladin. Great rider in his day, but also past his peak, and one that never did make it in gp's. So yeah, guys from outside the paddock have to do something special to prove their worth. That's not exclusive to American riders either. As a matter of fact, it seems that only Americans and Brits are given the opportunity to make the crossover.


On a tangent, have you ever given thought to the fact that Edwards, Hayden and Spies have been given stints on factory a Honda of Yamaha? 2 SBK champions, 1 AMA champion. The only one that did anything with their ride was Hayden, and to be honest, aside from the 2006 championship, he's done preciously little with it. Not to mention the other 2. How would you judge their results if they weren't American?


Perhaps you've missed it, but I've followed Aleix' career throught his time in the lower classes. He has always struck me as an exceptionally talented rider that had a lot of bad luck. Show me an American rider that a teamboss would be better off considering at the moment. Edwards? Hayden? Spies? Anyone else?


 


 


Well.... I agree, we have opposing takes. You are now talking out of your ... dude, maybe you just felt the need to reply something and hope it sticks buddy? I'll just say this one little thing, Mladin was super talent, despite not liking his as a person, he had world class skill.  (No point  further rebutting with something of substance).  
 
Jumkie
3503511367609771

Well.... I agree, we have opposing takes. You are now talking out of your ... dude, maybe you just felt the need to reply something and hope it sticks buddy? I'll just say this one little thing, Mladin was super talent, despite not liking his as a person, he had world class skill.  (No point  further rebutting with something of substance).  


I thought it was a pretty serious reply, but if it saves you the trouble of formulating a reply, sure take it as me talking out of my ....
 
basspete
3503271367607336

If he was champ in Word Supers, why did he use the name Max Biaggi? He is the ly WSBK champ i heard of last year.


 


You bloody scots and your semantics...
 

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