Engine Capacity

mylexicon · Apr 22, 2012

Geonerd said:
If this isn't WOT, I don't know what is.

Listen to the clip you posted at 0:40 and 1:01 and you'll see what I'm talking about. The engines are limited to roughly 26m/s piston velocity on the throttle, but kicking the bike back a gear or two under light braking can send the engine well over the red line. I just wanted to be sure you weren't searching for the highest value, but the highest value under full throttle. I'd be interested to see what you get for the revs at 1:02 or there about.

Anyway, from your work, we can estimate that Honda and Yamaha are running at 1000cc, and Ducati did indeed (at least for 1 engine) follow the 930cc route.

Talpa · Apr 22, 2012

Geonerd said:
Talpa, I fail to see how multiple mics and channels is going to make the doppler issues go away. Without knowing the instantaneous radial velocity between bike and microphone, it will be rather difficult to correct for the frequency shift.

I was somewhat surprised at all the high frequency signal in the on-board videos. While the broadcasters may be boosting certain frequency ranges, I don't see any sign of harsh FFT application. CoolEdit does waterfall plots; these show plenty of signal to ~13KHz, and at least some energy well over 19KHz.

It won't make it go away, never said that, but it will give you a better chance to nail a small section for accurate pitch/time, analyzing the channels separately recorded from different positions, that's what I'm saying. The Shot guns would also help here, but not fix of course.

And without knowing what/how much compression is being applied to those on-boards makes it difficult to ascertain what that HF stuff is/whirring bike/clutch/electronics or added fuzz due to processing and we could also have RF issues , as those on board cameras are RF for the broadcast, do we know if those clip were from the broadcast or an iso/on board recording?

I've had a look at Kropo's recording and removing the high end helps, there is a lot of stuff up there between 7Khz and 14khZ trackside and as you say plenty in the on-boards as well. The trackside stuff also brings the chain noise into play, tough one this. Best option-good recording in the pits.......

michaelm · Apr 22, 2012

Geonerd said:
Auto-tune, with the dials cranked to 11, produces highly irritating effects. Thankfully, it's not everywhere... yet.

But what's even worse is the horrendous dynamic compression that goes on in 90% of the industry. Google 'loudness war' for an explanation and examples.

Hence why I listen almost exclusively to old (or new pressings of old) vinyl these days.

michaelm · Apr 22, 2012

J4rn0 said:
Ducati will never tell; but yes, their current engine is a 930cc., the one meant for the first GP12 "1000", i.e. designed to function as a stressed member. A new engine is due, which will be lighter (natively designed to fit into a twin spar frame) and running (or ready to run) at full capacity. I even heard that Barbera has been testing a full capacity 1000cc engine -- it could actually make sense, using the satellite team for testing rather than the other way round; but, who knows.

So will they pull the pin if there is a rev limit this year? I guess audi means even your inside knowledge is clouded currently.

The desmo system does it would seem give them some sort of intrinsic engine advantage, perhaps not really in practice if the resultant characteristics from exploiting the advantage make the bike unrideable.

Talpa · Apr 22, 2012

michaelm said:
Hence why I listen almost exclusively to old (or new pressings of old) vinyl these days.

Tis a large debate this one.........Almost Rossi/Stoner esk!!

Unfortunately, its a case of- for most people-louder is perceived better, especially in advertising, reducing dynamic range can also add positive elements to audio masters for the listener, especially if you are lazy with your volume control

Most engineers don't want to do it, but their hand is forced. And when you consider the listening environments/devices for a lot of content these days; laptop, phone, tablet etc on top of MP3 compression, its more about cheap/free quantity rather than quality..........

michaelm · Apr 22, 2012

Talpa said:
Tis a large debate this one.........Almost Rossi/Stoner esk!!

Unfortunately, its a case of- for most people-louder is perceived better, especially in advertising, reducing dynamic range can also add positive elements to audio masters for the listener, especially if you are lazy with your volume control

Most engineers don't want to do it, but their hand is forced. And when you consider the listening environments/devices for a lot of content these days; laptop, phone, tablet etc on top of MP3 compression, its more about cheap/free quantity rather than quality..........

I was going to say, you are obviously involved in sound recording

. I have seen debates as aggressive as the rossi stoner one concerning whether a certain cartridge is really "high fidelity" (not that I participate in any such forums) so vehemence seems to be somewhat characteristic of internet forums.

I refuse to even have an ipod, although since I started listening to music on a transistor radio this is perhaps inconsistent. What is encouraging is that if you frequent record (as in vinyl) shops a lot of kids are getting into vinyl these days, and my 17 year old niece thought my (rather good) turntable based system was really cool.

BarryMachine · Apr 22, 2012

Kropotkin said:
Correct.

BTW, if everyone agrees, I will be writing up the findings of this thread, complete with pointers to this thread and credits to you all to post on the site. If you would prefer not to, then I will merely drop little tidbits of info into other articles on the site. I think Barry and Geo should get to decide, as they have done most of the legwork.

That'll be Geo, I just managed to do the first one then Geo took to the task with a fervor and has done a sterling job. I could not have kept up to him ........ the guy is running 300hz!

Well presented job too, and done in such a way that shows anybody can confirm the result for themselves. Especially the demonstration of Cher's use of Autotune

Kropotkin · Apr 22, 2012

BarryMachine said:
Well presented job too, and done in such a way that shows anybody can confirm the result for themselves.

That's one of the things that I want to highlight. Gone are the days of million-dollar equipment, a smart person can achieve a lot sitting at home using cheap software, the internet and some ingenuity. I love this, and the fact that it really annoys people like Neil Spalding who rely on being close to the action to get their data is a bonus.

BarryMachine · Apr 22, 2012

Talpa said:
Obviously you don't do this professionally......... No not this specifically but it was "right up my alley", for your very own government for nearly 20 years. I was what is apparently described as a Metrologist or Legal Metrologist to be more precise ... ( not a meteorologist ) ( it is just easier to say test engineer

) I even coordinated/tutored/lectured/was a course on it at RMIT for many a year. And the Govermink paid me each fortnight, so I guess that made me a professional at it.

My forte was "out of the square" methods of confirming a measurement ......... I did some wacky stuff I can assure you, all of it under international legal auspices.

I can tell you I would have dropped your two mike idea in a blink of an eye ...... and I'm not knocking the Zoom, its a great little bit of gear ( I have met during my Eviolin days ... very impressive ). But we had measurement gear to do such tasks that cost thousands times the price of the zoom ....... why? because they were traceable ........ not that that is needed here ...... but nonetheless the idea is wrong in concept, Kropo was not kidding when he said the passby recordings were hard .... one has to minimize the flaws in the setup.

If you want "voodoo" or "black art", get into dynamic train weighing ........ at which I was apparently an expert

if being an expert meant spending way too much time standing at outback far north QLD rail loops watching long mining trains go by at 0.5km/h then I can attest ... I was

it got so boring at times that once a the manufacturers techo guy and myself where studying the effects of coca cola on a nest of ants ... we were going to try beer next day ..... guess we got distracted, because I can't remember doing it ...

So, no you are about as wrong as you can get about that one ......... there is about 2 pallet loads of my work archived in the Aus. Gov. archives ....... should you wish to check ........ however I suggest you don't ...... its mindbogglingly mindboggling stuff ..... especially after you have done it for too long.

an easier thing to do is to sneak on into the pits when they give the engines a warm-up and hope they hold the rpm long and high enough to get what you need....

Yes that was what I thought .... but then I thought ..... spy cameras ... telemetry screen ..... cut out the middle man

Plus you would get the benefit of getting to an obvious top revs as it hit the limiter. The thing with all these readings we are taking is that, though they must be close, because they are under load, and there is no obvious limiter cutting in ..... they cannot be confirmed as the maximum revs yet. Hence why it is totally feasible that Geo keeps discovering "new records", as he seems full aware ........ to his credit

Geonerd · Apr 22, 2012

mylexicon said:
Listen to the clip you posted at 0:40

16,485 on the backshift. No, I am not using obvious garbage data like that. (Although I am curious to see what sort of over-rev the bikes hit when drafting in top gear. I've yet to find a good sample or that, but have just started to review the actual Qatar race.)

From the Race video, here are some of Stoner's shift points in race trim. 15180, 14600, 16110, 15445, 14600, 14300, 14900, 14100

As I recall, the 16,100 was on the straight when giving Pedrosa a run for the lead. Seems they can wring it a little when needed.

I've just started reviewing the race and have not yet encountered an on-board with J-Lo or Pie Man, or the Ducs.

BarryMachine · Apr 22, 2012

Geonerd said:
From the Race video, here are some of Stoner's shift points in race trim. 15180, 14600, 16110, 15445, 14600, 14300, 14900, 14100

I would not take "too much never mind" about Stoners shift points ....... they are as salient as the breeze, the guy is a god at short shifting, hanging revs, ....... finding the right part of the power he needs for a task ...... many have enjoyed watching his riding antics ..... I suspect if we listened to his riding , it may become a whole new field for admiration ..... he is a freak

and he knows it too ...... I was thinking about that Go Pro clip where he whips through the gearbox on exit of the pits ...... I was wondering why?! and thought is he testing it before the lap ? maybe ...... but in the end I think it was just that he knew he was "on show" and was giving us an exercise in "watch what I can do ..... who needs an electronic g/box controller?" ...... stunning. That or he was just making sure his 400M$ clutch was working

Geonerd · Apr 22, 2012

BarryMachine said:
That'll be Geo, I just managed to do the first one then Geo took to the task with a fervor and has done a sterling job. I could not have kept up to him ........ the guy is running 300hz!

Well presented job too, and done in such a way that shows anybody can confirm the result for themselves. Especially the demonstration of Cher's use of Autotune

That's 300 MEGA Hertz, dude!

(I'm running a highly overclocked Z80, and a red, Devo-style helmet / heatsink on my head.)

Geonerd · Apr 22, 2012

BarryMachine said:
I would not take "too much never mind" about Stoners shift points ....... they are as salient as the breeze, the guy is a god at short shifting, hanging revs, ....... finding the right part of the power he needs for a task ...... many have enjoyed watching his riding antics ..... I suspect if we listened to his riding , it may become a whole new field for admiration ..... he is a freak

and he knows it too ...... I was thinking about that Go Pro clip where he whips through the gearbox on exit of the pits ...... I was wondering why and thought is he testing it before the lap ? maybe ...... but in the end I think it was just that he knew he was "on show" and was giving us an exercise in "watch what I can do ..... who needs an electronic g/box controller?" ...... stunning.

For sure. I was just reporting all the clean samples I found. I'm curious about average vs. peak RPM and how the two might affect the racing with the engine and fuel limitation regs. in place.

BarryMachine · Apr 22, 2012

Geonerd said:
That's 300 MEGA Hertz, dude!

(I'm running a highly overclocked Z80, and a red, Devo-style helmet / heatsink on my head.)

sadly I know all those things ...... even what a Z80 was ( did my time with Z80 assembler when it was "the in thing" too )

But back then 300Mhz!!! thats sci fi! ..... well nobody even thought of it really cos we were dealing with keeping up with the latest clock speeds at the time ....... like say 64k??

BarryMachine · Apr 22, 2012

multiple interrupts .... thats a Z80 joke ..... pre true multitasking ...... and unexplained double posts I would wager!

Bunyip · Apr 22, 2012

Well done guys, especially Geonard. All of this, is totally out of my field of expertise, so I thank you all for your wisdom.

This must be part of the future , where the internet allows a pooling of disparate minds to solve a problem.

So, 930 cc it is. Many ramifications............... issues for Ducati should a rev limit come in, a peakier engine rossi dislikes, etc etc

It would seem, for various reasons that Ducati,s mooted new engine may well be 999cc as well as narrow angle??

ps Michael..........With a good CD player, I find vinyl hard to justify..............only 20 mins before you have to turn it over, and then if there are any scratches, the whole theoretical advantage has been rendered useless. I think CD was a great invention.

Geonerd · Apr 22, 2012

Got a handful of samples from Edward's BMW during the Sepang test. These are drive-by, and guesstimating the point at which doppler distortion is minimal is subjective. Also, there's no guarantee that the engine is near peak revs at that instant.

At any rate, ~13,500 seems close.

BarryMachine · Apr 22, 2012

michaelm said:
I refuse to even have an ipod, although since I started listening to music on a transistor radio this is perhaps inconsistent.

Now come on. I'm old, but you are old and antiquated!!

I wish I had an mp3 player for back in the day, remember sony walkmans with the tape? I used one for many years in a back pack whilst practicing enduro riding out in the bush NE of Sydney. The pitch warbled with every bump, but it was amazing at the time to be able to do it. I remember one time riding along to one of Vivaldi's bits of music ....... building up to a crescendo, I was going faster and faster, it was a great piece of music to ride with ...... right up until it came to an abrupt stop as I hit an embankment of gravel at the side of the track

. Nowadays you can just use your mobile phone. And its stable and clear and adjustable, and if its too "new" for you you can run it through a valve effects add on ( probably could find a gramaphone add on too if you wished!

) . I ride along with my headphones on listening to music, with the GPS voice scaring the .... out of me every now and again as she interjects with her protestations, and i can answer phone calls without stopping !! But thats road riding nowadays and I avoid vivaldi ( not really ... love a bit of vivaldi )

BarryMachine · Apr 22, 2012

Geonerd said:
Got a handful of samples from Edward's BMW during the Sepang test. These are drive-by, and guesstimating the point at which doppler distortion is minimal is subjective. Also, there's no guarantee that the engine is near peak revs at that instant.

At any rate, ~13,500 seems close.

Have to watch out for some onboard of those. Will be interesting to see how they develop as time goes on.

Mr Squiggle · Apr 22, 2012

BarryMachine said:
Do you have it up and installed on a wav. editor? ..... go on do it for us.

Sorry Baz....not near my DAW at the moment....house sitting and filming all week.

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