Of the last 22 years of 500cc GP World Championships only 4 were won by another nationality other than Australian or American. Sort of says something about the skill set the Euro's grow up with in comparison to the American's and Aussies. Then you look at the little bikes and most of the WC's are won by the Euro's.
All the 800 ducatis were difficult bikes, but up until 2010 could give great rewards if you could manage the narrow window of performance. I tend to doubt rossi would have had much luck on them, due to them being antithetical to his riding style/preferred bike characteristics rather than any deficiency in talent, but we will never know.
There was nothing excellent about the 2010 bike, or the 2011 bike which followed. I actually don't blame rossi for the 2011 bike, but I don't think stoner is to blame either; they were ducati's idea for bikes that would suit valentino rossi, not rossi's, stoner's or anyone else's.
Joined Aug 2008
6K Posts | 748+
Thailand
WOW - then the four Euros that managed to win a 500cc WC musta had an incredible skill set to burst through the dominance!
Once Stoner and his crew sorted the 2010 bike it was a race winning bike. The problem with it was that Ducati tried to make it easier to ride by going big bang and ...... it up in the process. But in true Stoner and crew style they found a way to make it work.
I don't agree about the 2011 bike being Ducati's idea of what Rossi wanted. I think that Rossi and perhaps JB were to quick to try and change it and never really tried to ride it. After all that is what they were brought in to do - fix it. What they didn't do was try to understand what they had first. Go back and look at Catalunya 2011 and tell me that that was a broken bike.
I don't agree about the 2011 bike being Ducati's idea of what Rossi wanted. I think that Rossi and perhaps JB were to quick to try and change it and never really tried to ride it. After all that is what they were brought in to do - fix it. What they didn't do was try to understand what they had first. Go back and look at Catalunya 2011 and tell me that that was a broken bike.
We disagree then. I think stoner and crew found a way to ride around the bike's problems intermittently, but he still had 2 dnfs mixed in with the late season race wins. The bike remained prone to random front end loses, at least unless you took the odds of crashing to get the tyres warmed up. It was obviously a bike capable of race wins at the end of the 2010 season, but not capable of winning championships imo particularly against a rider with jorge's mistake rate in his maturity as a rider.
I have often thought they should have got rossi to try the 2009 bike and work from there. I did get some schadenfreude in 2011 from rossi not being able to immediately fix the results of stoner's alleged incompetence, but am over it now. It is again only my opinion, but I think the 2010 bike was an attempt to develop a bike suited to rossi or lorenzo, their targets for the following year. I think stoner got the message they wanted to ditch him and had made plans with honda fairly early as well, and did not fight the change in the direction of development.
Joined Aug 2008
6K Posts | 748+
Thailand
michaelm - I think Ducati knew they pissed off Casey by then and it was his choice to go NOT Ducati ditching him... Ducati then knew they were up the proverbial creek without a Casey - Oooops, better make a bike the rest of the racing world can ride or we're gonna look like fools...
I agree that beating Lorenzo in 2010 would have taken a mistake free season something which the Ducati could not guarantee. But the fact Stoner won 3 races once they sorted it means to me that it was a good bike if ridden hard enough to make it work.
The rest of your post I agree with.
I actually feel that it more the effects of the regs that brought Ducati undone.....and their failure to adapt/change. From 2009 we saw the control tyre and engine limit regs, two of the largest problems with Motogp today, more than coincidentally Ducati/Stoners results started plummeting here. Honda completely revamped their machine several times in 2010, with huge changes for 2011, and Yamaha already had the best package.....Ducati just rested on the carbon half/chassis, brought out the big bang, and then failed to evolve the front end-despite that being the biggest issue in 2010.
What is incredible, is that no doubt the major critique Ducati have received from all of their riders was-no/vague feedback from the front. Knowing that Bridgestone was no longer able to come in and save the day with a magic front hoop, they have had now three years of failures and trying everything else, before seriously re-designing the engine......???? Which we may only see the result of in Laguna this season? I won't forget Nakomato's comment last season on Ducati's 'time strategy' with regards to the changes asked from Rossi and JB.
Whatever the result of Ducati's latest incarnation (for which I'm still not holding much hope of results), I have no doubt that the offers that are on the table for Rossi at present for 2013 are being seriously considered-and with each practice session the choice is probably becoming easier to make.....I still hope that they can turn it around, and that Rossi stays there, logic suggests otherwise though
Anyhow Krop, back on track, If you missed this due to the neo-boner bopping hijacking I'm still hoping for your opinion on the silly season at present......
Joined May 2008
3K Posts | 79+
Southern Aridzona - Hell's doorstep.
Hum... Haven't seen those sessions yet...
New on-board vids at Youtube.
The situation remains unchanged, with the Duc hitting a hair over 17,500, the Honda at 16,300, and the Yam running a few hundred RPM less, as they're prone to doing in practice.
I was afraid this thread was going to go the way of so many others
Glad it's back on track. Intriguing stuff.
FP2 on Eurosport has an onboard with Stoner that nobody talks over when he's on the front straight with onscreen tach at around 13:00 left in the session. He shifts at an indicated 15.8k (3rd to 4th) on the back straight, and then 16.2k (4th to 5th) on the front straight. Seems he doesn't use 6th.
Unfortunately, they're talking over Rossi's onboard at around 8:00 left, but he shifts at an indicated 15.9k (3rd to 4th) on the back straight, and then 16.0k (4th to 5th) and 16.2k (5th to 6th) on the front straight.
Edit: Added Casey's indicated shift points.
Joined May 2008
3K Posts | 79+
Southern Aridzona - Hell's doorstep.
Assen Qual, onboard with The Yellow One.... (35 min left in the session)
Audio analysis indicates the Ducati's 'usual' 17,500 max RPM, but the on-screen tachometer provided by the official feed shows only low 16,... values.
Incompetence?
Conspiracy?
Bad analysis?
or?
I vote for "conspiracy," and am rather pissed that the powers that be are deliberately distorting the data.
Audio analysis indicates the Ducati's 'usual' 17,500 max RPM, but the on-screen tachometer provided by the official feed shows only low 16,... values.
Incompetence?
Conspiracy?
Bad analysis?
or?
I vote for "conspiracy," and am rather pissed that the powers that be are deliberately distorting the data.
Joined Jun 2007
10K Posts | 1K+
Norah Head
HowTF can you possibly think this Michael!?? Ducati were lost when Stoner announced he was leaving. Though I think they knew it was happening, they knew where their "bread was buttered". What rumour/comments have you seen/heard that can even make you think Ducati wanted to ditch Stoner?
Perhaps you are thinking that "they did nothing for Casey to fix the bike" ? But surely this has been shown to be be a fallacy since "they have done nothing to help Rossi" or even gone backwards. Ducati purely and simply are a "garage outfit" and do not have the resources to make the bike needed by the riders. They sell 40,000 bikes worldwide a year ....... do the math ....... they have bee subsisting on grants and sponsorship. Stoner could see the money and development Honda have and wanted some of that ........ simple.
If you think Ducati really wanted Rossi ....... read back on some of the comments from the Ducati folk at the time, some knew it would be a disaster, even predicting their demise ........ Audi has saved their butts.
