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Ducati going to V-engine

Mental Anarchist said:
I can not agree however that his success was not assisted by his placement at the centre of the Dorna Marketing Plan.



The same applies now. It has largely been glossed over that 2 significant changes to the sport have come about at an opportune time to assist Rossi with his issues. 1) Change to testing rules, and 2) Changes to the construction of the Bridgestone. In my view any success gained next season by Rossi will be tainted by the tide once again been swung around to try to move him to the front.
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We shall see. I think both the testing rule, and the control tyre rule or the control tyre which resulted anyway were stupid regardless of benefit to valentino or not, and disadvantaged the smaller teams of suzuki and ducati, and may have contributed to the demise of kawasaki as well, the opposite of their purported intent.



I think dorna actually believed the hype, and thought valentino was both invincible and immortal. I can't see how the ending of the saturday night specials for example was for his benefit.The problem is that valentino seems to have bought in to an extent as well, at least as far as thinking that a ducati on which stoner could win, if erratically, would only require a few tweaks for him to be successful on it. I hasten to add he is closer to being invincible and immortal than most, but he is still dependent on adequate equipment like everyone else in motogp history.
 
Mr Squiggle said:
Funnily enough Kesh, Rossi himself described each moment before he would lose the front end on the Ducati as "the ....... vibration".....there is obviously some funky resonance going on in that concotion of CF and aluminium that so far NO ONE has been able to explain.



The fact of the matter is that they still dont actually know where the problem lies - which makes finding a solution nearly impossible....once they work out the reason why the front end folds without warning they can start to look for a cure.
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Been reading all the quotes from Rossi on the Duc and never seen this one. Everything I've read has been to the effect

that it gives way with no warning of any kind. Not challenging you - but wouldn't mind seeing a link to this quote.
 
So.. you found it immediately... and then failed to examine the quote for context. Big surprise.



In the event, that's one rider, Rossi who consistently had a different frame than all the other riders.

And even if he was referring to the engine (he wasn't) he also consistently had a different engine

than the other riders.



Never heard this from any of the other Ducati riders. The vibration he experienced was not

something he encountered at any particular RPM or gear or speed - so it stands to reason

the problem is a product of the chassis, suspension and their relation to the tires.



Read the piece in its entirety. Both riders are placing the blame squarely on the suspension chatter - not the engine.



The common thread for both riders was their blame of the Desmosedici, and more specifically its front-end. For reasons that aren't easily understood, especially by Ducati, the bike simply didn't allow the rider to perceive the limit with the front wheel. It simply didn't give them the "feeling" that they were looking for. In Rossi's case it would even chatter slightly before suddenly giving way, a condition he would eventually dub, "The ....... vibration."
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if anything, the 90° l4 would be ideal to cancel out most vibrations. who knows,maybe they'll be able to move the engine or rotate it a little upside so that there won't be a increase in vibrations



honda is running something like 72° right? do any of you guys know whether they have to use extra weights (like rods) on their cranks to calm the engine?
 
People can speculate all they like at this point in time as to what is the cause of the Ducatis front end woes - but when the guys who design, engineer, fettle and ride the bikes dont know where the problem lies it makes it virtually impossible for them to find a cure.....once they isolate this problem, be it forks, tires, engine layout, chassis type, materials used etc etc they can begin to make headway. Until that point in time they are clutching at straws like the rest of us. I hope they find the solution before its too late.



From another GP One article......



"Complicating his qualifying session to some extent was a small crash in turn 9. "The same way it always happens – Rossi stressed - When the bike is going better and I try to push harder, I end up on the ground. When I'm at maximum lean, and I release the brakes to get on the gas, the front starts to chatter and I crash. In the garage we call it the '....... vibration' (his exact words, ed.), because it's the last thing you feel before entering the black hole. Of the 12 crashes I've had this year, this issue has caused 90% of them. We don't understand why it's happening, and it isn't a problem with the engine mapping, even if it's a little harsh. It's probably because we don't have enough load on the front end at that point, and it's reduced further when we start to accelerate. I'm constantly worried that I can crash from one minute to the next, and that's not a nice sensation."



Read more: http://www.gpone.com/index.php/en/201110225305/Rossi-I-woke-up-well-today.html#ixzz1jCAzEj85





"I'm constantly worried that I can crash from one minute to the next, and that's not a nice sensation."



That would be enough to give anyone a "tummy ache"
<
 
Mr Squiggle said:
People can speculate all they like at this point in time as to what is the cause of the Ducatis front end woes - but when the guys who design, engineer, fettle and ride the bikes dont know where the problem lies it makes it virtually impossible for them to find a cure.....once they isolate this problem, be it forks, tires, engine layout, chassis type, materials used etc etc they can begin to make headway. Until that point in time they are clutching at straws like the rest of us. I hope they find the solution before its too late.



From another GP One article......



"Complicating his qualifying session to some extent was a small crash in turn 9. "The same way it always happens – Rossi stressed - When the bike is going better and I try to push harder, I end up on the ground. When I'm at maximum lean, and I release the brakes to get on the gas, the front starts to chatter and I crash. In the garage we call it the '....... vibration' (his exact words, ed.), because it's the last thing you feel before entering the black hole. Of the 12 crashes I've had this year, this issue has caused 90% of them. We don't understand why it's happening, and it isn't a problem with the engine mapping, even if it's a little harsh. It's probably because we don't have enough load on the front end at that point, and it's reduced further when we start to accelerate. I'm constantly worried that I can crash from one minute to the next, and that's not a nice sensation."



Read more: http://www.gpone.com...l#ixzz1jCAzEj85





"I'm constantly worried that I can crash from one minute to the next, and that's not a nice sensation."



That would be enough to give anyone a "tummy ache"
<
Click to expand...

Except for the "....... vibration" part, this is almost exactly what stoner said (and was reviled for) about the 2010 bike. He didn't say it about the also carbon-fibre 2009 bike though.



Even if going to a conventional chassis resolves the instability problem they still may end up with a bike slow because it doesn't handle due to the configuration/dimensions of the engine which as keshav has said appears to be what mandated the unconventional chassis in the first place.
 
cliché guevara said:
if anything, the 90° l4 would be ideal to cancel out most vibrations. who knows,maybe they'll be able to move the engine or rotate it a little upside so that there won't be a increase in vibrations



honda is running something like 72° right? do any of you guys know whether they have to use extra weights (like rods) on their cranks to calm the engine?
Click to expand...



Agree. I can't see how engine vibrations are somehow pumping enough energy to push the (presumably borderline unstable) chassis beyond the threshold of chatter. In the first place, the frequencies are be all wrong; the engine will be buzzing at many KHz, while typical chassis chatter is maybe 5 or 10 cycles per second. Even if there was some crazy harmonic going on, the effect would stop as soon as the engine's speed changed even slightly. If there was a certain deadly RPM that set the chassis off, the engineers should have noticed that almost immediately. Also, I suspect the engine vibration amplitude would be dwarfed by the forces generated by and within tires, springs, flexing of frame, forks, etc.



Could be wrong, but most of those vibration damping devices suck a bit of power - not a good thing now that MotoGP has become a glorified Fuel Economy Run.
<
 
Looks like Hayden is not getting the same spec bike as Rossi. After all Rossi left Yamaha because his team mate got the same spec so I am sure he doesn't want the same thing to happen at Ducati.
 
michaelm said:
Except for the "....... vibration" part, this is almost exactly what stoner said (and was reviled for) about the 2010 bike. He didn't say it about the also carbon-fibre 2009 bike though.



Even if going to a conventional chassis resolves the instability problem they still may end up with a bike slow because it doesn't handle due to the configuration/dimensions of the engine which as keshav has said appears to be what mandated the unconventional chassis in the first place.
Click to expand...



Agreed - they may have a bike that is still much harder to coax into going around corners fast etc etc



The change to a conventional chassis for Ducati has three core aspects to it IMHO



1) The six engine rule - Ducati were caught out last year and had to start from pit lane when they overused their allocation of engines when trying different chassis configurations - due to the "engine as a stressed member" nature of their design it required a new engine to be fabricated in order to test new chassis ideas.



2) The lack of adjustability in the previous "engine as a stressed member" design - setup configuration with this design is problematic and limited their setup options.



3) Process of elimination - Ducati are embarking on a problem solving phase for their new GP bike designs...they need to test many aspects of their bike to eliminate a list of "suspect" parts and components one by one in a bid to isolate this fundamental flaw in their bike. So far the materials used have been trialled and found to give similar "feedback" to the rider....the "twin spar" design has been trialled and seems to be better but has it actually solved the front end issue???? Next test according to speculation seems to be the engine config...specifically the "v angle".



I seriously doubt the new bike will be a magic bullet to the inherent problems they have but who knows - it may instantly make them 1.5 seconds quicker so they can be competitive but I doubt it. All the while Honda and Yamaha are developing their bikes also, but instead they are free to concentrate on refining their now very mature designs which have proven to be the benchmark for all to follow.
 
Geonerd said:
Agree. I can't see how engine vibrations are somehow pumping enough energy to push the (presumably borderline unstable) chassis beyond the threshold of chatter. In the first place, the frequencies are be all wrong; the engine will be buzzing at many KHz, while typical chassis chatter is maybe 5 or 10 cycles per second. Even if there was some crazy harmonic going on, the effect would stop as soon as the engine's speed changed even slightly. If there was a certain deadly RPM that set the chassis off, the engineers should have noticed that almost immediately. Also, I suspect the engine vibration amplitude would be dwarfed by the forces generated by and within tires, springs, flexing of frame, forks, etc.



Could be wrong, but most of those vibration damping devices suck a bit of power - not a good thing now that MotoGP has become a glorified Fuel Economy Run.
<
Click to expand...



I think the engine config change for Ducati is as much to do with getting the bike to turn better and enter corners with more stability as it is to see if it solves the front end tuck which has plagued them for quite a while now.
 
Mr Squiggle said:
Agreed - they may have a bike that is still much harder to coax into going around corners fast etc etc



The change to a conventional chassis for Ducati has three core aspects to it IMHO



1) The six engine rule - Ducati were caught out last year and had to start from pit lane when they overused their allocation of engines when trying different chassis configurations - due to the "engine as a stressed member" nature of their design it required a new engine to be fabricated in order to test new chassis ideas.



2) The lack of adjustability in the previous "engine as a stressed member" design - setup configuration with this design is problematic and limited their setup options.



3) Process of elimination - Ducati are embarking on a problem solving phase for their new GP bike designs...they need to test many aspects of their bike to eliminate a list of "suspect" parts and components one by one in a bid to isolate this fundamental flaw in their bike. So far the materials used have been trialled and found to give similar "feedback" to the rider....the "twin spar" design has been trialled and seems to be better but has it actually solved the front end issue???? Next test according to speculation seems to be the engine config...specifically the "v angle".



I seriously doubt the new bike will be a magic bullet to the inherent problems they have but who knows - it may instantly make them 1.5 seconds quicker so they can be competitive but I doubt it. All the while Honda and Yamaha are developing their bikes also, but instead they are free to concentrate on refining their now very mature designs which have proven to be the benchmark for all to follow.
Click to expand...

According to an article excerpted on the MCN forum preziosi won't be drawn on the angle of the V in the 2012 engine despite repeated questioning, but says pretty much what we have been saying ie that the traditional ducati V-twin is well proven in other arenas and he doesn't see that they are constrained to the same angle for their 4 cylinder motogp engine.



Amusing discussion from some die-hard rossi fans on there, admittedly in response to excessive rossi-bashing, that the 2011 bike was terrible due to stoner and responsible for valentino's travails, but also that stoner fans are paranoid that the 2012 ducati will be competitive enabling rossi to pressure stoner into errors, stoner's loses on the ducati presumably being due to rider error rather than attributable to the bike. I love a circular argument.
 
Isnt the whole point of these Wroom events meant to be for introducing their new bike designs? Someone forgot to tell them to bring the bikes along this year
<
 
michaelm said:
According to an article excerpted on the MCN forum preziosi won't be drawn on the angle of the V in the 2012 engine despite repeated questioning, but says pretty much what we have been saying ie that the traditional ducati V-twin is well proven in other arenas and he doesn't see that they are constrained to the same angle for their 4 cylinder motogp engine.



Amusing discussion from some die-hard rossi fans on there, admittedly in response to excessive rossi-bashing, that the 2011 bike was terrible due to stoner and responsible for valentino's travails, but also that stoner fans are paranoid that the 2012 ducati will be competitive enabling rossi to pressure stoner into errors, stoner's loses on the ducati presumably being due to rider error rather than attributable to the bike. I love a circular argument.
Click to expand...



MCN and Crash.net = comedy central.
 

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