Ducati going to V-engine

BarryMachine said:

But Valentino doesn't ride screamers. Went through that at Yam, and it was the first choice they played with at Duc. for him...... no go ...... Rossi is a railway track rider he doesn't like it wild. Well he didn't but who knows he has evenbuilt himself a flat track like an Aussie dirt track and from the picky above it looks like he's giving it a go ....... when he can do that INTO the corners he may be able to run with the Kurri Kids

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Did valentino seriously try the ducati screamer? It is purely speculation on my part, but I am surprised stoner acceded to the change to the bigbang, as the screamer seemed to suit him; I have wondered whether he had made his decision to leave and didn't want to stand in the way of what was being promulgated as a different direction for ducati's future more generally suitable for other riders.



I think in the end they designed on the basis of what they thought might suit valentino with perforce no input from him and I would contend that neither is stoner really to blame for the direction of the 2010 and 2011 bikes nor valentino for not being able to fix a bike with inherent design flaws.



I don't forget that the 2007 bike, and on their day the 2008 and 2009 bikes, were magnificent when it all worked.

Duc's problem hasn't been their engine, its been the lack of a conventional chassis.

After this past season, I don't really dare to say anything about what's wrong with the Ducati anymore. Really have got no clue at all. I feel for them, that's for sure. They can't even unveil the GP12 at the wrooom thing (although I thought they already unveiled it last year.... oh well).



Maybe they'll suprise us all and show up with a competitive bike at Qatar.

michaelm said:

Did valentino seriously try the ducati screamer? It is purely speculation on my part, but I am surprised stoner acceded to the change to the bigbang, as the screamer seemed to suit him; I have wondered whether he had made his decision to leave and didn't want to stand in the way of what was being promulgated as a different direction for ducati's future more generally suitable for other riders.



I think in the end they designed on the basis of what they thought might suit valentino with perforce no input from him and I would contend that neither is stoner really to blame for the direction of the 2010 and 2011 bikes nor valentino for not being able to fix a bike with inherent design flaws.



I don't forget that the 2007 bike, and on their day the 2008 and 2009 bikes, were magnificent when it all worked.

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Yes first thing Rossi and Hayden did at the very first test was try a screamer.



I very much doubt they went to big bang solely because of Rossi, it was done way before they ......... but then again there were rumours that Rossi and JB visited the Pancake factory about that time ......... hmmmm ???



It was said to be to calm down the bike to make it more rideable by "everyone", at the time the boppers had given up on the "its the best bike" ........ and were playing the " but its a magical mysterious fairytale combination that just suits Stoner" line. The sad thing is as much as Casey gave Ducati, they constantly took actions that where non conducive to keeping him at the front, and where not very thoughtful or greatful for Stoners efforts.The Lactic Fishing trips were well deserved and essential ..... for sure.



Ducati are victims of "the mob" ............. just glad Stoner got out.

Jumkie said:

Duc's problem hasn't been their engine, its been the lack of a conventional chassis.

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All chasis changes date have proved ....... meh



Keep up with the times Jum!! thats why they are finally going to fix that silly engine layout.

stiefel said:

Maybe they'll suprise us all and show up with a competitive bike at Qatar.

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That would be a surprise.

would be awesome if they did...better for the show IMO. the more bikes are running up front, the more exciting it is

Speaking of Ducati engines, did i miss it, have they ever released exactly what cc they were going to run. There was a lot of early speculation about possibly running a 900 or 930 instead of a 1000.

Anything less than 1000 would be very stupid I think.

But at Ducati anything can happen!

They do'nt seem to be very clever.

Especially the Marlboro people.

Otherwise they would have kept Stoner at all costs!

BarryMachine said:

All chasis changes date have proved ....... meh



Keep up with the times Jum!! thats why they are finally going to fix that silly engine layout.

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I guess we may get to see how the L4 works with an aluminium spacefame chassis.



Both you and jumkie know much more about the mechanical aspects of bikes than I do, and are or have been riders of ducatis, but I am with you on this, I think it is likely the engine is at least as big a problem as the chassis desgn or lack thereof. As far as I can glean the 2009 carbon fibre integrated chassis thing was largely a response to the length of the engine, and worked at least as well for stoner when he was healthy as the preceding steel trellis frame bike, albeit with the screamer engine. I thought the engine was a stressed member with the trellis frame anyway, and the superbike admittedly with some help from the fabulous flying flammini brothers seems to work pretty well with a V-twin and trellis frame chassis, with opposite characteristics in comparison with their 4 cylinder competition to that displayed by the ducati motogp bike, ie supposedly less peak power but more useable power/better power delivery and nimble handling.

michaelm said:

It is purely speculation on my part, but I am surprised stoner acceded to the change to the bigbang, as the screamer seemed to suit him; I have wondered whether he had made his decision to leave and didn't want to stand in the way of what was being promulgated as a different direction for ducati's future more generally suitable for other riders.

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I've seen you speculate on this several times over the last few months, michaelm, but perhaps the following might clear a few things up. It's from a media debrief Stoner did at Estoril in 2010. You can find the whole (typically) excellent article over at Kropotkin's site: http://motomatters.c...cati_s_scr.html



Q: I know you're leaving at the end of the season, but it looks like Ducati might be revisiting the screamer engine concept over the winter [i.e. with Rossi/Hayden]. Have you given any thought about whether it is worth having another look at that concept, or if it would be better to stay with the big bang?



CS: If they can learn to control it, then yeah, it could be a great thing, because we lost a bit of power this year. Not so much lost from last year, but they brought an evolution of the screamer engine to the Valencia test [i.e. in 2009], but the thing was just ridiculous. It wanted to rip my arms out and spin up and try and spit you off, and buck and weave. I did a few laps on it and decided I didn't want to have anything to do with it. So we rode the big bang engine, and it was quite similar to the other one, maybe a little less bottom end that first bit, but there was just so much more torque and progression through the revs.

Rising Sun said:

I've seen you speculate on this several times over the last few months, michaelm, but perhaps the following might clear a few things up. It's from a media debrief Stoner did at Estoril in 2010. You can find the whole (typically) excellent article over at Kropotkin's site: http://motomatters.c...cati_s_scr.html



Q: I know you're leaving at the end of the season, but it looks like Ducati might be revisiting the screamer engine concept over the winter [i.e. with Rossi/Hayden]. Have you given any thought about whether it is worth having another look at that concept, or if it would be better to stay with the big bang?



CS: If they can learn to control it, then yeah, it could be a great thing, because we lost a bit of power this year. Not so much lost from last year, but they brought an evolution of the screamer engine to the Valencia test [i.e. in 2009], but the thing was just ridiculous. It wanted to rip my arms out and spin up and try and spit you off, and buck and weave. I did a few laps on it and decided I didn't want to have anything to do with it. So we rode the big bang engine, and it was quite similar to the other one, maybe a little less bottom end that first bit, but there was just so much more torque and progression through the revs.

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but hes talking about a new screamer he never raced, who knows how brutal that thing was compared to the beast the 07-09 engines were!

also, he says this.....

"CS: If they can learn to control it, then yeah, it could be a great thing, because we lost a bit of power this year. "





i suspect that ducati built the screamer with stoner in mind (altough they overshot a bit as it appears) and a smoother big bang for rossi.



and instead of taming the new screamer mechanically or with new electronics they focused on the big bang ,with 2011 in mind...



but thats just my guess

Rising Sun said:

I've seen you speculate on this several times over the last few months, michaelm, but perhaps the following might clear a few things up. It's from a media debrief Stoner did at Estoril in 2010. You can find the whole (typically) excellent article over at Kropotkin's site: http://motomatters.c...cati_s_scr.html



Q: I know you're leaving at the end of the season, but it looks like Ducati might be revisiting the screamer engine concept over the winter [i.e. with Rossi/Hayden]. Have you given any thought about whether it is worth having another look at that concept, or if it would be better to stay with the big bang?



CS: If they can learn to control it, then yeah, it could be a great thing, because we lost a bit of power this year. Not so much lost from last year, but they brought an evolution of the screamer engine to the Valencia test [i.e. in 2009], but the thing was just ridiculous. It wanted to rip my arms out and spin up and try and spit you off, and buck and weave. I did a few laps on it and decided I didn't want to have anything to do with it. So we rode the big bang engine, and it was quite similar to the other one, maybe a little less bottom end that first bit, but there was just so much more torque and progression through the revs.

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Thanks, I hadn't seen or don't remember that direct quote.



I do remember ducati saying they wanted to make the thing more generally rideable and not purely suited to stoner, and he was obviously absent during part of the development of the 2010 bike in 2009. I seem to recall talk of them deliberately changing the balance of the bike to give more rear grip. They may have succeeded to some extent, as nicky hayden's performance in the early part of 2010 improved, although not really to the level of contending for wins. Whatever they did in the end seemed not to make the bike really competitive for others, and the front end unstable for everyone including stoner, to which it now appears changes in the tyres may have contributed.



I am obviously a stoner partisan, but I think what is apparent is that stoner was massively better at riding ducati 800s than anyone else who tried, apparently due to some unique element in his riding style. I don't think it is necessarily a reflection on valentino's relative riding talent in general that he couldn't ride that idiosyncratic bike as well, but have to admit it is rather satisfying to see that many of the criticisms of stoner's riding, tactical and strategic ability (and character in general for that matter) now fairly clearly should be addressed to the bike. It would seem not only that it could only be ridden one way as stoner has said, but also that it couldn't be developed into a stable corner speed yamaha style bike with the current (or perhaps now previous) design. It does remain remarkable that ducati could build a bike capable of beating rossi on a factory yamaha in any fashion in the first place though.



Having read the whole motomatters article which I don't think I had done previously, and comments, there is some interesting stuff there, including a comment that perhaps what stoner does to some extent as opposed to say mick doohan on the bikes of 2 decades ago is surf the tc/mapping; it has occurred to me that being of a "digital native" generation which older riders may not be ( I very definitely am not) might be an advantage with such things.

Maybe the new bike has only the Desmo system left,everything else-gone.No tradition-keeping and brandprotection "holding them back".I get the feeling there was someone in the company always wanting to keep it a Ducati so to speak.

Now that everyone in the whole world screams at the company -Rossi has to win!!! That ,someone,finally gave Preziosi completely free hands.Engine tilted back like the Panigale,narrower angle,or whatever works best,and ofcourse the outsourced aluminium frame.I'm almost sure Preziosi would liked to have started over from scratch some time ago.No L-twin or L-v4,perhaps the desmosystem is good enough,but,only think about laptimes and not what kind of company you represent.



In other words,the new bike could be a japanese bike with desmosystem.BOOOORING! But what else to do?

just ....... fix it

Anders GUZZI said:

Maybe the new bike has only the Desmo system left,everything else-gone.No tradition-keeping and brandprotection "holding them back".I get the feeling there was someone in the company always wanting to keep it a Ducati so to speak.

Now that everyone in the whole world screams at the company -Rossi has to win!!! That ,someone,finally gave Preziosi completely free hands.Engine tilted back like the Panigale,narrower angle,or whatever works best,and ofcourse the outsourced aluminium frame.I'm almost sure Preziosi would liked to have started over from scratch some time ago.No L-twin or L-v4,perhaps the desmosystem is good enough,but,only think about laptimes and not what kind of company you represent.



In other words,the new bike could be a japanese bike with desmosystem.BOOOORING! But what else to do?

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Winning is more exhilarating than "autistic" expression.

Jumkie said:

Duc's problem hasn't been their engine, its been the lack of a conventional chassis.

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I generally avoid being pedantic. That said - their unconventional engine won't fit into a conventional frame. Ergo...

Keshav said:

I generally avoid being pedantic. That said - their unconventional engine won't fit into a conventional frame. Ergo...

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It really won't matter a jot what they do for a chassis, they need to make the vibrating monster vibrate in a different way.



Its long passed being about static mass and flex ........ its all about the vibrations.

xx CURVE xx said:

just ....... get it done

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Thats the spirit Curve!! you gee em up ..



But its a bit useless telling us ....... post it to Ducati ...... here's their email:

BarryMachine said:

It really won't matter a jot what they do for a chassis, they need to make the vibrating monster vibrate in a different way.



Its long passed being about static mass and flex ........ its all about the vibrations.

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Given that every rider who's failed to be competitive on the last 4 iterations of the Ducati have consistently complained about

the way the front end goes away with no warning - I don't know how you can possibly think that. And given some of the

tortured excuses for logic you have foisted upon us all over the years - I don't really care to hear your explanation - which

of course - won't stop you from offering it here. Go for it Baz.