Ducati confirms carbon fibre swingarm

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Mar 11 2009, 06:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'> Thats funny, in the second link bm says Tc makes bikes faster yet i have debated this several times with him and he had the stand point it didn't. Now to try and cover his contradictions he will say he said riders not bikes. Well whats the differance when we talk lap times ? Barry can tell that tc makes the bike faster but slows the rider as he has told us barry will now predictibly ask me to find the post yawn, barry we have all read your comments so no real need to keep digging them up.
I didn't notice that. Too busy to help BM finding BM's own writing. The lousy search engine refuse to accept only tree letters. Make searching for ABS really a big job.
Nice to hear I dug up some more of BM's expert inconsitencies. Just goes to show; "Be carefull about what you ask for..."

What is so hard about working with aluminum?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Mar 12 2009, 04:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'> Thats funny, in the second link bm says Tc makes bikes faster yet i have debated this several times with him and he had the stand point it didn't. Now to try and cover his contradictions he will say he said riders not bikes. Well whats the differance when we talk lap times ? Barry can tell that tc makes the bike faster but slows the rider as he has told us barry will now predictibly ask me to find the post yawn, barry we have all read your comments so no real need to keep digging them up.

"Context" Rog. its called "context" ...... though I don't think you'd get what "context" is .....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gsfan @ Mar 12 2009, 10:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What is so hard about working with aluminum?

nothing if the performance of the material doesn't matter to you. Aluminum behaves differently to CF. And the behavior of CF is quite a known science these days ... including rapid understanding of how dimensional changes affect the performance.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 12 2009, 12:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>nothing if the performance of the material doesn't matter to you. Aluminum behaves differently to CF. And the behavior of CF is quite a known science these days ... including rapid understanding of how dimensional changes affect the performance.

Isn't it a bit more complicated than that?
Fair enough, CF is quite a known science today but hardly as known as aluminium and particulary not on motorbikes where it has to work together with suspension and wheels to handle vibrations, spring and dampening at changing lean angles.
You make it sound easy but if it was easy and cheap I suspect some of the larger companies would have tried it allready.
I wish Ducati success but they are taking a risk with a lot of unknown factors. But then again, maybe the timing is right and this is the time for CF to invade motorcycle racing industry.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Mar 12 2009, 08:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Isn't it a bit more complicated than that?
Fair enough, CF is quite a known science today but hardly as known as aluminium and particulary not on motorbikes where it has to work together with suspension and wheels to handle vibrations, spring and dampening at changing lean angles.
You make it sound easy but if it was easy and cheap I suspect some of the larger companies would have tried it allready.
I wish Ducati success but they are taking a risk with a lot of unknown factors. But then again, maybe the timing is right and this is the time for CF to invade motorcycle racing industry.

I think their goal was to eliminate some unexplained resonance they get ( must think its setting up the pumping ). Someone on here pointed out earlier, in the CF thread where Rog. wants my fly rod! ) that the damping characteristic of CF may be what they are after.

There's a lot more characteristics of materials than just compressional or tensional strength, eg. one that I have had lots of experience with "hysteresis" ....... Al. is a shocker for this, and may be in part why early Al. alloys suffered greatly from fatigue failure.

But no I think even welding and bending Aluminum sheets/shapes/members renders them pretty much an unknown for stress analysis, so I assume its the same for Planning on having known performance characteristics in Al.. I think the way round the issues with how such things affect the strength of Al. members was to just over engineer them ( raise the safety factor/fatigue factor ). But again dependent on the actual method of fabrication I think they loose a lot of predictability on Aluminum parts.

I just think that with CF they have many more options to vary flex and dampening and Hysteresis than just outer dimensions of the product.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Mar 12 2009, 08:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>maybe the timing is right and this is the time for CF to invade motorcycle racing industry.

Posted this separate to avoid "Big Al's syndrome" from now on meant to comment but posted before I remembered to put it at the end.


I think most of the outer fairings, tanks, fenders, casings etc. and subframes have been CF for quite a while now ....... I don't think its all that new to Ducati. Just an extension of what they are doing at present. It'd be nice to see it cure such a performance characteristic though thats for sure.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 12 2009, 10:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Posted this separate to avoid "Big Al's syndrome" from now on meant to comment but posted before I remembered to put it at the end.


I think most of the outer fairings, tanks, fenders, casings etc. and subframes have been CF for quite a while now ....... I don't think its all that new to Ducati. Just an extension of what they are doing at present. It'd be nice to see it cure such a performance characteristic though thats for sure.
doh, really? I didn't know that.
Do you also consider a building is constructed of glass just because it is covered in it?
This is the first attempt for many years to use carbon fibre where it really matter, in the core of the construction. Tank, fairings and subframes material do not influence handling and is not part of the carying construction so that's hardly relevant. CF fairings and bits is something you by off the self anywhere. Besides it's the same for the others. They are also using CF for weight savings where it's not part of the frame and suspension. To use it in frame and swing arm is something entirely new for Ducati.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Mar 12 2009, 08:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Tank, fairings and subframes material do not influence handling and is not part of the carying construction so that's hardly relevant.

All well and good to continuously argue against someone but to use a statement such as this one could prove to be quite silly.

I think a pretty solid arguement could be put forth regarding each of these items effect on handling be they only small. I am no expert but I can think of at least one for each.

Not taking sides but it seems regardless of what BM says he is bagged. I think he has made some good points and at least seems to have some knowledge of CF. More than me at least.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Mar 12 2009, 09:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>doh, really? I didn't know that.
Do you also consider a building is constructed of glass just because it is covered in it?

http://www-civil.eng.ox.ac.uk/research/glass/
http://www.iso.org/iso/iso_catalogue/catal...?csnumber=44598
http://marketplace.designcommunity.com/top...&highlight=

some are these days


but my point stands ....... they have used CF for ages. If you disagree with Ducati doing it well sook at them .... not me

I'd be interested to know more about the difference in unsprung mass of the new swingarm assembly over the old ally one, and any associated changes to the suspension...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (#22 @ Mar 13 2009, 12:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'd be interested to know more about the difference in unsprung mass of the new swingarm assembly over the old ally one, and any associated changes to the suspension...

Ducati used to post up a few details of the current GP bike .... but I suspect never that specific. And given its something different and new .... I guess much of what they do find will be well guarded .... thats why we tend to discuss and debate stuff thats going on in GP ...... its about the only way to "fathom" some of the actions taken or parts used.

I was a bit surprised they even let the riders talk about "the pumping" ..... or maybe the didn't ... its just that Stoner tends to just say it how it is ...... as I suspect Hayden is a bit like as well.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Mar 12 2009, 09:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Isn't it a bit more complicated than that?
Fair enough, CF is quite a known science today but hardly as known as aluminium and particulary not on motorbikes where it has to work together with suspension and wheels to handle vibrations, spring and dampening at changing lean angles.
You make it sound easy but if it was easy and cheap I suspect some of the larger companies would have tried it allready.
I wish Ducati success but they are taking a risk with a lot of unknown factors. But then again, maybe the timing is right and this is the time for CF to invade motorcycle racing industry.
Maybe not at this particular rather fraught time in history, but in general ducati's best option is to go radical, as they are unlikely at most times to match yamaha's or honda's resources where conventional engineering is concerned, not that engineering conventionally seems to be their bag anyway, I guess at least partly for reasons of glorious italian-ness which I applaud. It brought them a world championship in 2007, some would argue with a modicum of assistance from casey stoner who was also a radical choice, but badly misfired at least one year in the 990s, if I recall at this late hour. The cf bike has been in train for some time and made its debut fairly early last year, so would presumably have been conceived under the presumption that honda and yamaha had comparatively limitless resources, but if ducati's support from ferrari is as strong as is rumoured perhaps the risk was not extreme, although informed by previous discussions by you and others I understand the principles involved in bike and car handling are fairly different.

It would seem likely to me at this stage that their punt has been successful, as the bike already looks more agile than the GP08, and more likely to be rideable by more than one rider. I have no engineering training at all, but even after the amount of testing so far catastrophic failure would appear unlikely. This does not of course mean that they will beat yamaha, particularly if yamaha have improved on what looked like an excellent bike in 2008 and considering they have a bloke called valentino rossi riding it who is reckoned by some to be reasonably good . I think as you would be aware that various ducati principals have flatly stated that they believe they require and attempt to achieve an engineering advantage against rossi.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 12 2009, 09:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But no I think even welding and bending Aluminum sheets/shapes/members renders them pretty much an unknown for stress analysis, so I assume its the same for Planning on having known performance characteristics in Al.. I think the way round the issues with how such things affect the strength of Al. members was to just over engineer them ( raise the safety factor/fatigue factor ). But again dependent on the actual method of fabrication I think they loose a lot of predictability on Aluminum parts.


Duuuuhhhh, what do you think a stress analysis is for??????

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 12 2009, 01:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>but my point stands ....... they have used CF for ages. If you disagree with Ducati doing it well sook at them .... not me

I don't disagree with Ducati and I suspect they really do have a good chance of getting this right, but that sure as hell isn't becuase of their experience from making CF fairings.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Mar 12 2009, 02:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Maybe not at this particular rather fraught time in history, but in general ducati's best option is to go radical, as they are unlikely at most times to match yamaha's or honda's resources where conventional engineering is concerned, not that engineering conventionally seems to be their bag anyway, I guess at least partly for reasons of glorious italian-ness which I applaud. It brought them a world championship in 2007, some would argue with a modicum of assistance from casey stoner who was also a radical choice, but badly misfired at least one year in the 990s, if I recall at this late hour. The cf bike has been in train for some time and made its debut fairly early last year, so would presumably have been conceived under the presumption that honda and yamaha had comparatively limitless resources, but if ducati's support from ferrari is as strong as is rumoured perhaps the risk was not extreme, although informed by previous discussions by you and others I understand the principles involved in bike and car handling are fairly different.

It would seem likely to me at this stage that their punt has been successful, as the bike already looks more agile than the GP08, and more likely to be rideable by more than one rider. I have no engineering training at all, but even after the amount of testing so far catastrophic failure would appear unlikely. This does not of course mean that they will beat yamaha, particularly if yamaha have improved on what looked like an excellent bike in 2008 and considering they have a bloke called valentino rossi riding it who is reckoned by some to be reasonably good . I think as you would be aware that various ducati principals have flatly stated that they believe they require and attempt to achieve an engineering advantage against rossi.

Good arguments Michael and I agree in both the reason for thaking the cf approach and their chance of success.

Ducati had the help of a certain F1 team...lol a them trying on their own. They probably don't even make the fairings in house.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (clarkjw @ Mar 12 2009, 08:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ducati had the help of a certain F1 team...lol a them trying on their own. They probably don't even make the fairings in house.
True they get help. They at Ferrari at present are working on a new twin for the factory as well. YUMMY!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ROCKGOD01 @ Mar 12 2009, 09:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>True they get help. They at Ferrari at present are working on a new twin for the factory as well. YUMMY!!
remember what happened the last time ferrari tried to design an engine for a bike?
it was the 4cyl 750 for the mv augusta and mv had to scrap and redesign it from ground up, stalling the bikes launch by quite some time. engines for ducatis are best when designed by ducati IMO

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Mar 12 2009, 03:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Forget Carbon Fibre, or aluminium swinging arms, jam donuts or bismarks meanwhile, are notoriously easy to manufacture. They just have to be correctly cut and either yeast leavened or chemically leavened and then glazed properly. I'll wager Barry knows all about this as well. In fact I'm willing to bet Barry's a Master-baker.

just spotted this ....... no sadly I used to love jam doughnuts ...... but I can't even heat them up properly in the microwave! I seem to have a nack for heating the jam to Nuclear fission temperatures and yet still have the "outside" ( thats laymans terms for teh doughy bit, which is in fact laymans terms for the bit on the outside whatever it is ) frozen rock solid

No you have me there! ..... I know nothing about jam doughnuts except you have to remove them from the frozen packet ...... so I assume they grow them on trees in farms in antarctica? I also think folk should be made to have a license to microwave them .... well I should at least ..... no I have already decided long ago to stay away from them for safety sake

Probably why I said jam doughnuts when I think of it ..... they are an unexplained mystery/ a voodoo toy/ things of the netherworld! ...... satan's food!