KTM: "in Ducati they think they are smarter"

Iamapony · Mar 29, 2019

evo9 said:
It was Nakamoto San who said that. It would appear they did make that bike. I remember he also said it was ugly.

Too hard to ride and ugly. Sounds like a H.D. fat boy. Apparently, there are actual pictures of the test bike some place. I don't remember ever seeing them.

evo9 said:
Empire strikes back > https://www.motorsport.com/motogp/news/honda-ducati-winglet-argentina/4360165/

If Honda thought this was legal, they would have done it, before. They spend a lot of money in MotoGP and after seeing the Yamaha dildo, I am sure they went to work on a prototype. Either it's all legal or none of it is legal on a swingarm. Leaving the legality of each one to the temperament of one guy seems ........ in a series of this stature.

Segfault · Mar 30, 2019

evo9 said:
Empire strikes back > https://www.motorsport.com/motogp/news/honda-ducati-winglet-argentina/4360165/

Most childish stunt from Honda management. What are they trying to prove? That Aldridge can read the rules written by manufacturers? These rules state clearly, if purpose is improving aerodynamics then it is not legal. If the purpose is something else then it is legal. Period, they wrote the rules, Aldridge is following these rules.

Keshav · Mar 30, 2019

The wild "cost increase" hysteria about aerodynamics is really unfounded.

“I want to underline that Ducati Corse spends roughly 1% of its budget on aerodynamics, so any limitation in this field would have a marginal impact on total racing costs. The costs we sustained in preparing the appeal equates to five days in the wind tunnel. In 2018, for the aerodynamic development of our MotoGP, Ducati Corse spent 10 days in the wind tunnel: so 50% of what we allocate to aerodynamics was spent on that hearing,”

Gigi Dall'Igna

https://www.gpone.com/en/2019/03/29/motogp/dalligna-the-spoon-costs-i-spent-more-on-the-appeal.html

Iamapony · Mar 30, 2019

Segfault said:
Most childish stunt from Honda management. What are they trying to prove? That Aldridge can read the rules written by manufacturers? These rules state clearly, if purpose is improving aerodynamics then it is not legal. If the purpose is something else then it is legal. Period, they wrote the rules, Aldridge is following these rules.

Yeah, well Danny seems a bit naive to believe that appendage is for a lousy seven degrees on the tire. Apparently, he doesn't know much about how hot race tires get and that they may change more than 7 degrees from one corner to the next without any cooling spoiler.

Hot tire warmers will put your tire at about 180. That tire can drop thirty degrees just getting from the pit onto the track. I don't believe seven degrees is going to do squat to save the tire, from my experience. I have charted this kind of tire temperature information, btw.

Theo · Mar 30, 2019

Keshav said:
The wild "cost increase" hysteria about aerodynamics is really unfounded.

“I want to underline that Ducati Corse spends roughly 1% of its budget on aerodynamics, so any limitation in this field would have a marginal impact on total racing costs. The costs we sustained in preparing the appeal equates to five days in the wind tunnel. In 2018, for the aerodynamic development of our MotoGP, Ducati Corse spent 10 days in the wind tunnel: so 50% of what we allocate to aerodynamics was spent on that hearing,”

Gigi Dall'Igna

https://www.gpone.com/en/2019/03/29/motogp/dalligna-the-spoon-costs-i-spent-more-on-the-appeal.html

Wind tunnel costs vary, from around £200 an hour, to millions over several days when using various changes in equipment. I think Gigi is being disingenuous here, after all 1% of lets say a £250 million budget for their bikes development, staff costs, transport, tools and all the ancillary expenses, isn't chicken feed, plus of course how many did they try out before picking on their current design. They would also have found out that it did have an effect on downforce, after all thats why would you tunnel test it.

Keshav · Mar 30, 2019

Theo said:
Wind tunnel costs vary, from around £200 an hour, to millions over several days when using various changes in equipment. I think Gigi is being disingenuous here, after all 1% of lets say a £250 million budget for their bikes development, staff costs, transport, tools and all the ancillary expenses, isn't chicken feed, plus of course how many did they try out before picking on their current design. They would also have found out that it did have an effect on downforce, after all thats why would you tunnel test it.

From 200 an hour to millions. That's quite the variable. Also you say 250 million but really - this is pure speculation on your part. If Gigi says it's 1% I have no reason to doubt him. He's never been known to be dishonest before. Whether it's chicken feed or not is immaterial. It's prototype racing. Also you make a great deal of assumptions about secondary costs to do wind tunnel testing. How do you know Ducati doesn't have it's own wind tunnel? Quite a few companies do.

povol · Mar 30, 2019

Repsol Honda reportedly operates on a 60-70 million dollar budget. Where is this quarter of a billion euro figure coming from.

Theo · Mar 31, 2019

Keshav said:
From 200 an hour to millions. That's quite the variable. Also you say 250 million but really - this is pure speculation on your part. If Gigi says it's 1% I have no reason to doubt him. He's never been known to be dishonest before. Whether it's chicken feed or not is immaterial. It's prototype racing. Also you make a great deal of assumptions about secondary costs to do wind tunnel testing. How do you know Ducati doesn't have it's own wind tunnel? Quite a few companies do.

Yes its a huge variable and I'm applying it across the board from simple designs to the most complex ie aircraft design.
If Ducati have their own wind tunnel that would cost a lot as well, anywhere from a few 1000's to 100 million, Maybe someone who works in aerodynamics could say how much. However take this one for example https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/the-world-s-largest-wind-tunnel-mountain-view-california They say it could cost billions, but I don't know.
Then there is this https://www.quora.com/How-much-is-the-estimate-cost-to-build-a-standard-wind-tunnel Not cheap is it.
So in that respect I doubt if any of the MotoGP manufacturers have a wind tunnel.

Theo · Mar 31, 2019

povol said:
Repsol Honda reportedly operates on a 60-70 million dollar budget. Where is this quarter of a billion euro figure coming from.

Is that in total? ie bike development, salaries, transport, employment costs, flight costs. How much does a MotoGP lorry cost?
The factories that they own, insurance, which I'd guess is very expensive. the list is almost endless in costs, I wonder how much is ignored.

Keshav · Mar 31, 2019

Theo said:
Yes its a huge variable and I'm applying it across the board from simple designs to the most complex ie aircraft design.
If Ducati have their own wind tunnel that would cost a lot as well, anywhere from a few 1000's to 100 million, Maybe someone who works in aerodynamics could say how much. However take this one for example https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/the-world-s-largest-wind-tunnel-mountain-view-california They say it could cost billions, but I don't know.
Then there is this https://www.quora.com/How-much-is-the-estimate-cost-to-build-a-standard-wind-tunnel Not cheap is it.
So in that respect I doubt if any of the MotoGP manufacturers have a wind tunnel.

You forget - Ducati makes many different vehicles and the cost of owning a wind tunnel would be spread over a multitude of bikes and scooter etc. all of which can benefit from superior aerodynamics. And it wouldn't need to be as big as one used for cars and larger vehicles. So cost comparisons with the world's largest wind tunnel are kind of pointless.

Theo · Mar 31, 2019

Keshav said:
You forget - Ducati makes many different vehicles and the cost of owning a wind tunnel would be spread over a multitude of bikes and scooter etc. all of which can benefit from superior aerodynamics. And it wouldn't need to be as big as one used for cars and larger vehicles. So cost comparisons with the world's largest wind tunnel are kind of pointless.

Agreed, but it does show how much these things can cost.

Keshav · Mar 31, 2019

Theo said:
Agreed, but it does show how much these things can cost.

That in itself is interesting mate. I just don't see a case being made for aero causing R&D costs to skyrocket in MotoGp.

KTM: "in Ducati they think they are smarter"

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