Ducati confirms carbon fibre swingarm

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chockmoose @ Mar 13 2009, 01:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Duuuuhhhh, what do you think a stress analysis is for??????

show me one done for any Al. part about the size of a swingarm ..... after it has been assembled welded/fabricated ..... and it must be a part that shares a simillar Factor of safety to say a swingarm on a GP bike .....


Edit about 3.142 seconds later ......... and remember Ducati have said thaey fabricate their old swingarm from pressed sheet .....


Edit: about 6.184 secands after ..... the above edit was denoted as such to ensure "Al du largesse" doesn't "chuck a wobbly"!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TP70 @ Mar 12 2009, 01:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>All well and good to continuously argue against someone but to use a statement such as this one could prove to be quite silly.

I would rather consider your stand rather padantic. I'm sure you can point out possible ways these parts could influence the chassi but that's not my point, they are not made for structural strength and is very low tech compared to frame and swing arm construction. In fact it would surproce me if not one or more of the factory teams get all their carbon fibre parts from a sub suplyer, without any real in house expertice what so ever.
Let's try the oposite thought experiment:
Replace the fairing with .... glas fibre, replace the tank with a jerry can and some duct tape to hold it, and replace the subframe with any silly construction that hold the weight of 50kg riders and the bike will go just fine. I'm sure the lap times would suffer, lets say 0.001 sec a lap but try a similar replacement for the frame and see what happens...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (clarkjw @ Mar 12 2009, 09:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ducati had the help of a certain F1 team...lol a them trying on their own. They probably don't even make the fairings in house.

I'm sure they allready have thrown out those F1 so called experts. As soon as they found the guy that were plastering their prototype CF fairings for the 888, a guy of BM's calibre and expertise they saw no need for those Ferarri guys any more. He and the brain damaged painter do that a lot better.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Mar 13 2009, 11:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm sure they allready have thrown out those F1 so called experts. As soon as they found the guy that were plastering their prototype CF fairings for the 888, a guy of BM's calibre and expertise they saw no need for those Ferarri guys any more. He and the brain damaged painter do that a lot better.

DO you have a translator there that works for Jibberish? ..... cos I don't get one bit of that

We've done stress analysis on far larger and more complex parts than a swingarm. It is not all that hard to do. And there is always destructive testing for verification. Stress analysis is very accurate and very advanced.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 12 2009, 11:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>show me one done for any Al. part about the size of a swingarm ..... after it has been assembled welded/fabricated ..... and it must be a part that shares a simillar Factor of safety to say a swingarm on a GP bike .....


Edit about 3.142 seconds later ......... and remember Ducati have said thaey fabricate their old swingarm from pressed sheet .....


Edit: about 6.184 secands after ..... the above edit was denoted as such to ensure "Al du largesse" doesn't "chuck a wobbly"!
Barry just because you have not seen a small part stress analysis does not mean that it does not exist. You should calm down a little with your technobabble as it shows your true ignorance to all.
Chill man or the hole that you are digging just gets deeper...just remember 'a little knowledge is a dangerous thing'

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 12 2009, 11:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>show me one done for any Al. part about the size of a swingarm ..... after it has been assembled welded/fabricated ..... and it must be a part that shares a simillar Factor of safety to say a swingarm on a GP bike .....


Edit about 3.142 seconds later ......... and remember Ducati have said thaey fabricate their old swingarm from pressed sheet .....


Edit: about 6.184 secands after ..... the above edit was denoted as such to ensure "Al du largesse" doesn't "chuck a wobbly"!

how about any structural part of an aircraft? i'm sure the safety factor is higher than a motogp bike as well.. maybe part of the landing gear, thats an aluminium part.


p.s. thanks for the edit updates barry, i was soooo relieved to see them and can now rest easy in the knowledge that there will be no nasty surpises whilst i am away from powerslide. your a pal!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigAl @ Mar 13 2009, 08:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>how about any structural part of an aircraft? i'm sure the safety factor is higher than a motogp bike as well.. maybe part of the landing gear, thats an aluminium part.

You'd be surprised how low the safetey factors are on Aircraft. That's why the maintenance schedules are so intense, so the planes can be built light enough to take off and be as fuel efficient as possible. Has anyone got any idea, or an educated guess as to what the safetey factor might be for motogp parts?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Mar 13 2009, 09:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You'd be surprised how low the safetey factors are on Aircraft. That's why the maintenance schedules are so intense, so the planes can be built light enough to take off and be as fuel efficient as possible. Has anyone got any idea, or an educated guess as to what the safetey factor might be for motogp parts?

Tom, tom, tom.... i make structural parts for aircraft. its part of my job. if you can tell me that safety factors are low on airframes then please provide proof of this. also, are you familiar with the safety tests that go into major load bearing parts? again ant info would be gladly recieved...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigAl @ Mar 13 2009, 07:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>how about any structural part of an aircraft? i'm sure the safety factor is higher than a motogp bike as well.. maybe part of the landing gear, thats an aluminium part.

You have to remember that the old Duc swingarm is probably a cast pivot section attached to pressed Al. arms. Its the junction which is the odd bit. ( Welded on many production bikes ).
Would they allow that on a plane part ? MAybe they bond fabricated Al. to cast/forged bits but welding is pretty much avoided on plane parts isn't it?



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigAl @ Mar 13 2009, 07:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>p.s. thanks for the edit updates barry, i was soooo relieved to see them and can now rest easy in the knowledge that there will be no nasty surpises whilst i am away from powerslide. your a pal!

Well so long as you are keeping up the therapy ......I'm sure you'll manage to cope with it if ( perhaps when ) it ever happens again

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigAl @ Mar 13 2009, 09:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Tom, tom, tom.... i make structural parts for aircraft. its part of my job. if you can tell me that safety factors are low on airframes then please provide proof of this. also, are you familiar with the safety tests that go into major load bearing parts? again ant info would be gladly recieved...



not being an aerospace student myself its only something we've touched on, and i have been led to believe that the industry uses generally lower FoS. I'm not prepared to go hunting in lecture slides or library textbooks as its too far in the past to find easily. If you feel i have been mislead or misinformed why don't you correct me? Tell me a little bit about the FoS generally used in aircraft parts, and how that compares to parts for other purposes.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Mar 13 2009, 11:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>not being an aerospace student myself its only something we've touched on, and i have been led to believe that the industry uses generally lower FoS. I'm not prepared to go hunting in lecture slides or library textbooks as its too far in the past to find easily. If you feel i have been mislead or misinformed why don't you correct me? Tell me a little bit about the FoS generally used in aircraft parts, and how that compares to parts for other purposes.
Jeez, more technobabble ........, .... me this place is inhabited by ....... hole diggers.
Who gives a damn on what you have been 'led to believe'? saying the industry uses a 'generally lower FoS' is ........ without you citing the required figure. Now you have shown that you truly have zero understanding of design of aero parts (including stress analysis) trying to turn your argument into a request for others to educate you is a waste of time. Do us a favour and get rid of your shovel and stop digging...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Mar 13 2009, 10:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I would rather consider your stand rather padantic. I'm sure you can point out possible ways these parts could influence the chassi but that's not my point, they are not made for structural strength and is very low tech compared to frame and swing arm construction. In fact it would surproce me if not one or more of the factory teams get all their carbon fibre parts from a sub suplyer, without any real in house expertice what so ever.
Let's try the oposite thought experiment:
Replace the fairing with .... glas fibre, replace the tank with a jerry can and some duct tape to hold it, and replace the subframe with any silly construction that hold the weight of 50kg riders and the bike will go just fine. I'm sure the lap times would suffer, lets say 0.001 sec a lap but try a similar replacement for the frame and see what happens...

Babel, I generally find your comments pretty interesting and feel that mostly they carry a bit of weight. So yeah I was being pedantic but only because you seemed to be needlessly having a go at BM when a lot of the stuff he was saying has a bit of weight to it as well. Therefore when you are calling him out on his comments I thought it was only fair to call you out on yours. As far as those changes you suggested eg jerry can etc if they only had 0.001 sec a lap effect then contact Dorna as you have just discovered how to reduce the costs in MotoGP.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 13 2009, 10:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You have to remember that the old Duc swingarm is probably a cast pivot section attached to pressed Al. arms. Its the junction which is the odd bit. ( Welded on many production bikes ).
Would they allow that on a plane part ? MAybe they bond fabricated Al. to cast/forged bits but welding is pretty much avoided on plane parts isn't it?




Well so long as you are keeping up the therapy ......I'm sure you'll manage to cope with it if ( perhaps when ) it ever happens again

indeed it is Barry. fully cast/forged or machined from billet and heat treated is the norm on aerospace stuff. as for the pivot being cast on the duc, who knows? IMO with it being such a limited type of part, it may well be m/c from billet and then welded, the key being that there is a weld. this is why IMO it will take longer to modify/change an ally frame than relay a CF one. the CF one might be more expensive to do but there is a shorter turn around time which is important in this field.


therapy is going great too! i am so calm now that i can even read and analyse your post, even agreeing with it! this shrink is fantastic! wowee!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TP70 @ Mar 13 2009, 12:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Babel, I generally find your comments pretty interesting and feel that mostly they carry a bit of weight. So yeah I was being pedantic but only because you seemed to be needlessly having a go at BM when a lot of the stuff he was saying has a bit of weight to it as well. Therefore when you are calling him out on his comments I thought it was only fair to call you out on yours. As far as those changes you suggested eg jerry can etc if they only had 0.001 sec a lap effect then contact Dorna as you have just discovered how to reduce the costs in MotoGP.
Thanks for the nice words TP.
I called BM on one point there: The carbon fibre frame and swingarm was a natural progresson from Ducati's previous experience in CF manufacturing, ie fairing, tank, subframe...
This simply doesn't make sense. It's as relevant experience as if I called my self a carpenter and started to construct and build wodden houses becuase I've replaced the outdoor panels on my house.
BM probably got a good point in that CF constructions are easy to adjust, AL is not. Btw also one of Ducati's main arguments for going to CF.

And for the cost of MotoGP, not really a sensation , even if silly it's an excample of why it's become so costly. If they can shave off a 1/100 by throwing a few thousand dollars at it,it's done.
Add all those parts, hours of analysis, hours of bench testing... and you get an anstronomical expencive bike that laps a second faster than the bike without all the fancy parts, suspension tweaking and drive train tweaking. Either you throw in that effort to be among the best or you bail out like Kawasaki did. It's a cost spiral that are very hard to get out of as it is 1000's of small things that adds up to a large amount and it's hard to regulate.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TP70 @ Mar 13 2009, 06:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Babel... ...you seemed to be needlessly having a go at BM when a lot of the stuff he was saying has a bit of weight to it as well.
Have ya read BM's posts compared to Babel's in general? Feather weight only!!!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Mar 13 2009, 12:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Have ya read BM's posts compared to Babel's in general? Feather weight only!!!!
Barry obviously does have technical knowlege, all prejudice or criticism of his prose style aside, and I would agree with TP 70 that barry has considerably more of such knowledge than I do as well. However I think babel is an actual engineer, as is yamacka whom we have not heard from for a while, and their contributions on technical matters I find very informative even though they are totally unreformed rossi fans , not that I decry their contributions on other matters.

Hey michael, you just took 5 lines to say what I said in one!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Mar 13 2009, 07:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Barry obviously does have technical knowlege, all prejudice or criticism of his prose style aside, and I would agree with TP 70 that barry has considerably more of such knowledge than I do as well. However I think babel is an actual engineer, as is yamacka whom we have not heard from for a while, and their contributions on technical matters I find very informative even though they are totally unreformed rossi fans , not that I decry their contributions on other matters.
See, if I was a BM at this point I'd say something like - obviously... show me where this is obvious. All I've read is quasi-intelligent technobabble... I'm with the moose on this!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Mar 13 2009, 12:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Hey michael, you just took 5 lines to say what I said in one!
OK, I'll shorten it. I basically agree with you .