Aprilia have had a carbon swingarm on their 250 for years, and Cagiva had one back in the day. It isn't new. Obviously mass centralisation is beneficial even if it means ballasting the bike, and savings in unsprung mass are better still. I would imagine the carbons biggest advantage is that its easier to design in and control the flex, so changes to the design are more predictable. I'm not sure though
Dall'Igna: "The Ducati will improve both the swingarm carbon
In the test in Losail night of the main technical innovations brought the Ducati on the track, which once in the carbon frame tube that connects the steering to the engine bearings - previously in lattice of pipes - has raised for the first time in desert of Qatar, another important particular, carbon fiber, the rear swingarm.
From the outside, a change that might seem of detail, even if they are not escaped some of the words Stoner enthusiastic about the new technique at the end of the test: "This swingarm is a good step forward," said the Australian.
The Gigi Dall'Igna engineer, technical manager of April, who "I had to make a MotoGP - says - make it no doubt with carbon swingarm. The benefits are not small, I think the Ducati with this change can make a great leap forward. Apart from other advantages, the carbon swingarm contributes significantly to reduce the vibrations. "
In the test in Losail night of the main technical innovations brought the Ducati on the track, which once in the carbon frame tube that connects the steering to the engine bearings - previously in lattice of pipes - has raised for the first time in desert of Qatar, another important particular, carbon fiber, the rear swingarm.
From the outside, a change that might seem of detail, even if they are not escaped some of the words Stoner enthusiastic about the new technique at the end of the test: "This swingarm is a good step forward," said the Australian.
The Gigi Dall'Igna engineer, technical manager of April, who "I had to make a MotoGP - says - make it no doubt with carbon swingarm. The benefits are not small, I think the Ducati with this change can make a great leap forward. Apart from other advantages, the carbon swingarm contributes significantly to reduce the vibrations. "
It's fascinating to see how Ducati is open to anything for their GP program, but very traditional when it comes to their SBK program.
Firstly, being known for their L twin, Trellis frame, Desmo valve, Dry clutch bikes, they surprised many when they entered GP with an L4/V4 (though very much justified).
Now abandoning the Trellis steel frame and aluminum swingarm for cf, it's a joy to see a manufacturer pushing the envelope on what's possible in GP's.
Unlike in SBK where the rules have to be modified to keep the Ducati 'tradition' competitive, I wonder if they would ever survive as a company if their marketing strategy is as open as their GP program? Would you buy a Ducati if it didn't have trellis frame, L twin, desmo valve, or dry clutch?
Firstly, being known for their L twin, Trellis frame, Desmo valve, Dry clutch bikes, they surprised many when they entered GP with an L4/V4 (though very much justified).
Now abandoning the Trellis steel frame and aluminum swingarm for cf, it's a joy to see a manufacturer pushing the envelope on what's possible in GP's.
Unlike in SBK where the rules have to be modified to keep the Ducati 'tradition' competitive, I wonder if they would ever survive as a company if their marketing strategy is as open as their GP program? Would you buy a Ducati if it didn't have trellis frame, L twin, desmo valve, or dry clutch?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mumu37 @ Mar 9 2009, 06:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Would you buy a Ducati if it didn't have trellis frame, L twin, desmo valve, or dry clutch?
I bought a Ducati because it was a Ducati and it felt bloody awsome to ride.
I had an R6 before and bought a Duc 848. I ride with guys who are bike nuts, with a range of bikes (CBR, R6's, R1's, Duc 996, Augusta F4, ZXR). I had to keep up !!
When I sold the R6 I wanted a bike that I seriously loved.
The sound of the Duc was awsome but doesn't matter to me that it was an L-twin with desmo valves and a dry clutch. The feel is better than anything else I have riden. And it was a weapon.
Looked awsome, sounded awsome, and felt awsome to ride. Thats why I bought a Duc.
The Duc has gone and a jet ski now sits in its place. Doesn't look as good, and definitely doesn't sound as good, but is good fun and I still have a licence for the jet ski.
I bought a Ducati because it was a Ducati and it felt bloody awsome to ride.
I had an R6 before and bought a Duc 848. I ride with guys who are bike nuts, with a range of bikes (CBR, R6's, R1's, Duc 996, Augusta F4, ZXR). I had to keep up !!
When I sold the R6 I wanted a bike that I seriously loved.
The sound of the Duc was awsome but doesn't matter to me that it was an L-twin with desmo valves and a dry clutch. The feel is better than anything else I have riden. And it was a weapon.
Looked awsome, sounded awsome, and felt awsome to ride. Thats why I bought a Duc.
The Duc has gone and a jet ski now sits in its place. Doesn't look as good, and definitely doesn't sound as good, but is good fun and I still have a licence for the jet ski.
Joined Jun 2008
2K Posts | 6+
America
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nuts @ Mar 9 2009, 08:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I bought a Ducati because it was a Ducati and it felt bloody awsome to ride.
I had an R6 before and bought a Duc 848. I ride with guys who are bike nuts, with a range of bikes (CBR, R6's, R1's, Duc 996, Augusta F4, ZXR). I had to keep up !!
When I sold the R6 I wanted a bike that I seriously loved.
The sound of the Duc was awsome but doesn't matter to me that it was an L-twin with desmo valves and a dry clutch. The feel is better than anything else I have riden. And it was a weapon.
Looked awsome, sounded awsome, and felt awsome to ride. Thats why I bought a Duc.
The Duc has gone and a jet ski now sits in its place. Doesn't look as good, and definitely doesn't sound as good, but is good fun and I still have a licence for the jet ski.
Mush the same for me dude. I had a 2000 996s and loved it! The trellis frame didn't make me buy it really at all it was just like you said about the overall package. There is something wonderful about a Ducatit that Japan just can't seem to get their hands on or wrap their heads around. Plus they make the most hideous looking machines to date. THe zx10 with those bubble lights, the honda with the copy of the ducati only a goofy looking version, that yamaha with that front end is soooo awful looking I can't even put it into words other than WHat the ....! But you have to respect others who buy themn cause that is what they like. You can't falut them for that. SOme people prefer junk food some people prefer fine dining.
I had an R6 before and bought a Duc 848. I ride with guys who are bike nuts, with a range of bikes (CBR, R6's, R1's, Duc 996, Augusta F4, ZXR). I had to keep up !!
When I sold the R6 I wanted a bike that I seriously loved.
The sound of the Duc was awsome but doesn't matter to me that it was an L-twin with desmo valves and a dry clutch. The feel is better than anything else I have riden. And it was a weapon.
Looked awsome, sounded awsome, and felt awsome to ride. Thats why I bought a Duc.
The Duc has gone and a jet ski now sits in its place. Doesn't look as good, and definitely doesn't sound as good, but is good fun and I still have a licence for the jet ski.
Mush the same for me dude. I had a 2000 996s and loved it! The trellis frame didn't make me buy it really at all it was just like you said about the overall package. There is something wonderful about a Ducatit that Japan just can't seem to get their hands on or wrap their heads around. Plus they make the most hideous looking machines to date. THe zx10 with those bubble lights, the honda with the copy of the ducati only a goofy looking version, that yamaha with that front end is soooo awful looking I can't even put it into words other than WHat the ....! But you have to respect others who buy themn cause that is what they like. You can't falut them for that. SOme people prefer junk food some people prefer fine dining.
Joined Oct 2007
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Tuscany, Italy
The key to understand Ducati is simply that they are radical individualists ('different' is important here, but it has to be done with style). So Ducati want to be the fastest, sure, but doing it differently, and with their own distinctive style... hence the desmo, the trellis and then the carbon fiber frames (never the deltabox that all others use!) etc.
This also explains why Ducati could not gel with Rossi. Valentino is exactly the same as Ducati--wants to be different and wants to be the fastest, with his own unique style. So actually Ducati and Rossi are in direct competition with each other, stealing the show from each other. They would never make a good team...
This also explains why Ducati could not gel with Rossi. Valentino is exactly the same as Ducati--wants to be different and wants to be the fastest, with his own unique style. So actually Ducati and Rossi are in direct competition with each other, stealing the show from each other. They would never make a good team...
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Mar 9 2009, 08:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The key to understand Ducati is simply that they are radical individualists ('different' is important here, but it has to be done with style). So Ducati want to be the fastest, sure, but doing it differently, and with their own distinctive style... hence the desmo, the trellis and then the carbon fiber frames (never the deltabox that all others use!) etc.
This also explains why Ducati could not gel with Rossi. Valentino is exactly the same as Ducati--wants to be different and wants to be the fastest, with his own unique style. So actually Ducati and Rossi are in direct competition with each other, stealing the show from each other. They would never make a good team...
WEll sorry to burst your bubble Jarno but your wrong about the Rossi/Ducati situation. Rossi did want to ride for ducati as he said in his book. He said that they were in good talks and that was his choice however when they got a bit deeper in talks he found that the philosophy was close to that of Honda at the time and he didn't want that. Yamaha offered an environment where he could in a sence be goofy and have fun. Not that DUcati wasn't a fun place to be but he felt that they were going to be more strict about things image wise and things so that is why he was disappointed and didn't go there. Valentino had every intention of moving to the Italian team also due to his Italian heritage it would of been a natural thing he said. IT had nothing to do with their stealing the show in any way.
This also explains why Ducati could not gel with Rossi. Valentino is exactly the same as Ducati--wants to be different and wants to be the fastest, with his own unique style. So actually Ducati and Rossi are in direct competition with each other, stealing the show from each other. They would never make a good team...
WEll sorry to burst your bubble Jarno but your wrong about the Rossi/Ducati situation. Rossi did want to ride for ducati as he said in his book. He said that they were in good talks and that was his choice however when they got a bit deeper in talks he found that the philosophy was close to that of Honda at the time and he didn't want that. Yamaha offered an environment where he could in a sence be goofy and have fun. Not that DUcati wasn't a fun place to be but he felt that they were going to be more strict about things image wise and things so that is why he was disappointed and didn't go there. Valentino had every intention of moving to the Italian team also due to his Italian heritage it would of been a natural thing he said. IT had nothing to do with their stealing the show in any way.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ROCKGOD01 @ Mar 9 2009, 08:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>when they got a bit deeper in talks he found that the philosophy was close to that of Honda
Yamaha offered an environment where he could in a sence be goofy and have fun.
he felt that they were going to be more strict about things image wise
IT had nothing to do with their stealing the show in any way.
You are a typing contradiction. They were going to control his image just to be mean? No! They wanted the Ducati to outshine Rossi, which he couldn't bare.
Yamaha offered an environment where he could in a sence be goofy and have fun.
he felt that they were going to be more strict about things image wise
IT had nothing to do with their stealing the show in any way.
You are a typing contradiction. They were going to control his image just to be mean? No! They wanted the Ducati to outshine Rossi, which he couldn't bare.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (clarkjw @ Mar 5 2009, 11:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Dall'Igna:
The Gigi Dall'Igna engineer, technical manager of April, who "I had to make a MotoGP - says - make it no doubt with carbon swingarm. The benefits are not small, I think the Ducati with this change can make a great leap forward. Apart from other advantages, the carbon swingarm contributes significantly to reduce the vibrations. "
One thing I know for sure is that changing wall thickness along a section greatly reduces part frequency transmission. We have designed car components with straight wall steel tube and then again with varying wall. The straight wall tube would not pass the Hz tests demanded by GM for a particularly tricky component while the varying wall tube damped the vibrations almost completely. It is completely tunable also. This vibration damping will increase cornering traction and prolong rear tire wear. The side flex adjustments can be tuned right into the swingarm and adjusted with inserts.
It is a huge achievement soon to be copied by everyone.
The Gigi Dall'Igna engineer, technical manager of April, who "I had to make a MotoGP - says - make it no doubt with carbon swingarm. The benefits are not small, I think the Ducati with this change can make a great leap forward. Apart from other advantages, the carbon swingarm contributes significantly to reduce the vibrations. "
One thing I know for sure is that changing wall thickness along a section greatly reduces part frequency transmission. We have designed car components with straight wall steel tube and then again with varying wall. The straight wall tube would not pass the Hz tests demanded by GM for a particularly tricky component while the varying wall tube damped the vibrations almost completely. It is completely tunable also. This vibration damping will increase cornering traction and prolong rear tire wear. The side flex adjustments can be tuned right into the swingarm and adjusted with inserts.
It is a huge achievement soon to be copied by everyone.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gsfan @ Mar 9 2009, 09:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It is a huge achievement soon to be copied by everyone.
i couldn't agree more. I've got some pre-preg in my freezer and am gonna try to bag mould a swingarm for my Buell. I think I'll need an auto clave for the proper stiffness though.
i couldn't agree more. I've got some pre-preg in my freezer and am gonna try to bag mould a swingarm for my Buell. I think I'll need an auto clave for the proper stiffness though.
Build the swingarm you want out of dense insulating foam and lay the carbon over the foam. Don't laugh I've helped build airplanes like this and it is incredibly easy...just don't become allergic to the resin.
Joined Jun 2006
2K Posts | 20+
south wales UK
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gsfan @ Mar 9 2009, 11:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Build the swingarm you want out of dense insulating foam and lay the carbon over the foam. Don't laugh I've helped build airplanes like this and it is incredibly easy...just don't become allergic to the resin.
cool so i guess after they have got the design correct do they then put it in an oven to make it bond as a all in one?
ducati have something good here i guess they can build the swingarm as flexi or stiff as they like? (dont get any idea's pinky)
i think its CF that can be worked many ways the strength all depends on the way the strips are layed and bonded together?
cool so i guess after they have got the design correct do they then put it in an oven to make it bond as a all in one?
ducati have something good here i guess they can build the swingarm as flexi or stiff as they like? (dont get any idea's pinky)
i think its CF that can be worked many ways the strength all depends on the way the strips are layed and bonded together?
Joined Jun 2007
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Norah Head
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (clarkjw @ Mar 10 2009, 07:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>i couldn't agree more. I've got some pre-preg in my freezer and am gonna try to bag mould a swingarm for my Buell. I think I'll need an auto clave for the proper stiffness though.
Comeon fella .... you already have an auto clave too ...... stick it in the oven!
Comeon fella .... you already have an auto clave too ...... stick it in the oven!
Joined Jun 2008
2K Posts | 6+
America
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (clarkjw @ Mar 9 2009, 08:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You are a typing contradiction. They were going to control his image just to be mean? No! They wanted the Ducati to outshine Rossi, which he couldn't bare.
NO they didn't want to do anything to tone him down or mess with his image. It had to do solely with the way they developed the motorcycle. If you really want to understand this then go read the book that he helped write about himself. It had NOTHING to do with outshining or an ego only a way to develop the bike. Hey that is what Vale says.
NO they didn't want to do anything to tone him down or mess with his image. It had to do solely with the way they developed the motorcycle. If you really want to understand this then go read the book that he helped write about himself. It had NOTHING to do with outshining or an ego only a way to develop the bike. Hey that is what Vale says.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gsfan @ Mar 10 2009, 03:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Building a swingarm for a MotoGP bike is and always will be out of my league.
i Bet barrymachine or tom could do it !
i Bet barrymachine or tom could do it !
Joined Jun 2007
10K Posts | 1K+
Norah Head
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Mar 10 2009, 08:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>i Bet barrymachine or tom could do it !
I most certainly could! ........ its just that it may not be of any known flex or rigidity
CF is used a fair bit out there Rog. .... check this out:
me ...... I think its crap for making violins out of ..... I'll tell you why if you want me to start!
Its just the "new fibreglassing" Rog. ........ get over the "aura" of it ....... part of why it is so useful is because it is such a "Known Technology" ..... yes you can polarise the CF strands, you can play with the substrates ....... you can design much with it ....... I think it suits Ducati perfectly ... ie. they are a smaller effort than say Honda and Yamaha ..... and need to find cost effective, non-wastefull "known" fixes for their problems
I most certainly could! ........ its just that it may not be of any known flex or rigidity
CF is used a fair bit out there Rog. .... check this out:
me ...... I think its crap for making violins out of ..... I'll tell you why if you want me to start!
Its just the "new fibreglassing" Rog. ........ get over the "aura" of it ....... part of why it is so useful is because it is such a "Known Technology" ..... yes you can polarise the CF strands, you can play with the substrates ....... you can design much with it ....... I think it suits Ducati perfectly ... ie. they are a smaller effort than say Honda and Yamaha ..... and need to find cost effective, non-wastefull "known" fixes for their problems
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 10 2009, 10:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I most certainly could! ........
Enough said, ....... know it all. Tc expert, Now carbon fibre expert
As for the rest of your post, WTF do we care about fiddles ? talk to pinky he likes a fiddle .
Enough said, ....... know it all. Tc expert, Now carbon fibre expert
As for the rest of your post, WTF do we care about fiddles ? talk to pinky he likes a fiddle .
Joined Jun 2007
10K Posts | 1K+
Norah Head
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Mar 10 2009, 10:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Enough said, ....... know it all. Tc expert, Now carbon fibre expert
As for the rest of your post, WTF do we care about fiddles ? talk to pinky he likes a fiddle .
Gee Rog. ....... What was your line of work? ....... surely you can't have commented so much on these things we discuss, and not have "any" experience in them!? ...... yes I am not a specialist in either of the above topics .... however I have dealt with them, or in the case of TC simillar, no need to wuss at me for that! ..
As for the rest of your post, WTF do we care about fiddles ? talk to pinky he likes a fiddle .
Gee Rog. ....... What was your line of work? ....... surely you can't have commented so much on these things we discuss, and not have "any" experience in them!? ...... yes I am not a specialist in either of the above topics .... however I have dealt with them, or in the case of TC simillar, no need to wuss at me for that! ..
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 10 2009, 12:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Gee Rog. ....... What was your line of work? ....... surely you can't have commented so much on these things we discuss, and not have "any" experience in them!? ...... yes I am not a specialist in either of the above topics .... however I have dealt with them, or in the case of TC simillar, no need to wuss at me for that! ..
Don't forget the ABS.
Don't forget the ABS.
