Doctored: MotoGP’s Obsession with Valentino Rossi

AntG said:

Mick is one of my all time favourites, proper old school racer he was, he didn't just want to win, he wanted to rip your throat out while he did it. Saw off several pretenders like Kocinski, Beattie, and Biaggi. I think Alex Criville said something along the lines of if it hadn't been for Doohan then he'd never have been good enough to eventually win the 500cc title himself, Mick pushed him like nobody else. Also that 1992 season when he missed 4 races and raced the last 2 injured he only lost the title by 4 points to Wayne Rainey, that just shows how dominant he was prior to his crash.

Hard as ....... nails, also I believe he was the first to use the thumb lever for the rear brake because he couldn't move his right foot properly.

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Good stuff Ant.

That's incredible he almost won the title in '92 in spite of that crash.

That is the definition of toughness. I don't know of too many guys who would even be able to do such a thing. After a crash like that, they would be done for the season, forget trying to come back during it. The focus would shift to the following year.

Well I'd just like to point out Wales beat England today.

AntG said:

Mick is one of my all time favourites, proper old school racer he was, he didn't just want to win, he wanted to rip your throat out while he did it. Saw off several pretenders like Kocinski, Beattie, and Biaggi. I think Alex Criville said something along the lines of if it hadn't been for Doohan then he'd never have been good enough to eventually win the 500cc title himself, Mick pushed him like nobody else. Also that 1992 season when he missed 4 races and raced the last 2 injured he only lost the title by 4 points to Wayne Rainey, that just shows how dominant he was prior to his crash.

Hard as ....... nails, also I believe he was the first to use the thumb lever for the rear brake because he couldn't move his right foot properly.

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Yep Ant, and this is why MD is my all time favourite and for me, is the GOAT in my time (and I should add Rainey in there as second in my list).

Simply the two hardest racers I have seen in my 35 or so years of motorcyle racing but the 1992 season and MD's recovery from that leg to go back and then win 5 titles shows the hard and single minded determination. He may not be the most personable of people but he sure was one massively hard f*cker on a race track.

People talk of this being the golden era but for be, the period around 1988 - 1998 is all to easily forgotten

Keshav said:

Oh no you di-in't!

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Most obnoxious indeed -- see the way they cheered Lorenzo's crash at Misano. Just like those despicable soccer hooligans :angry:

michaelm said:

You mean as opposed to Rossi's complete reticence about any problems he may have considered to be present during the entire 2 years of his tenure at Ducati, the second of which was actually in that same year of 2012?

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Mike, I think Ant has it covered with his correct statement of

AntG said:

The day a rider doesn't moan when things aren't going his way is the day that rider needs to consider a career change.

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But the aspect that I have always found interesting is that one person may be defined as a whinger, one as telling the truth and another as a shi*t stirrer when they speak, purely because of the manner in which they make their statement, the tone or pitch of their voice, the body language as they speak and even the audience to whom they are speaking.

I can recall numerous times throughout the years where one rider was called a whinger only for another rider to effectively make the same statement but be accepted differently.

For years I have said that Stoner's issues and why he was (incorrectly in my opinion) called a whiner/whinger were his delivery as he did not smile or laugh as he makes statements and the media laps up the smile or laughter and acquaints it with a joke. On top of that, generally Stoner speaks in a lower monotone type of voice, his pitch does not rise or fall dramatically when compared to other riders who had 'more accepted' statements.

But again, I totally agree with Ant as if any of these riders came into the pits and did not complain, then maybe the time has come for that rider.

AntG said:

I remember years ago getting hundreds of thumbs down on Crash.net for having the audacity to say the champion is the rider with the best bike. My opinion remains the same, I watch motorcycle racing for the bikes, not the riders.

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It's a bit more complex than that, because the bike that is best for one rider may not be the best for another one. Marquez could not ride a la Marquez on a Yamaha. Lorenzo could not ride like Lorenzo on a Honda.

So in the end the "right kind" of best bike has to find the "right kind" of best rider to really produce top results. This certainly makes things more interesting.

Disagree J4rno, I think these riders can adapt. A disadvantage is a disadvantage and an advantage is an advantage. These guys have been adapting for years. I think if Marc & Lorenzo exchanged machines the 4-factory machines would remain 1-4 positions on the grid.

Theo said:

I In 2012 Stoner moaned at every single round. I imagine if you wanted to find out why a lot of people say Stoner was the worst moaner, his last year would be the basis of it.

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Not true or correct Theo as the nickname was present well before 2012 and actually started to surface in late(ish) 2007 when he became both competitive and somewhat outspoken as to the previous year's equipment.

He started 2007 as 'Casey Crasher' or 'Rolling Stoner' to many people (fans and media alike), ended 2007 as the World Champion which many people credited to anything but rider skill (subsequently many having recanted) and was already being called Moaner as he was often outspoken about many and varied topics.

Through 2012 he was vocal certainly, but no more so than in previous years

Either way, to call him a Moaner is to overlook the commentary of many others riders who have whinged, whined, moaned, groaned and spoken as much as he has through the years

Gaz said:

Mike, I think Ant has it covered with his correct statement of




But the aspect that I have always found interesting is that one person may be defined as a whinger, one as telling the truth and another as a shi*t stirrer when they speak, purely because of the manner in which they make their statement, the tone or pitch of their voice, the body language as they speak and even the audience to whom they are speaking.

I can recall numerous times throughout the years where one rider was called a whinger only for another rider to effectively make the same statement but be accepted differently.

For years I have said that Stoner's issues and why he was (incorrectly in my opinion) called a whiner/whinger were his delivery as he did not smile or laugh as he makes statements and the media laps up the smile or laughter and acquaints it with a joke. On top of that, generally Stoner speaks in a lower monotone type of voice, his pitch does not rise or fall dramatically when compared to other riders who had 'more accepted' statements.

But again, I totally agree with Ant as if any of these riders came into the pits and did not complain, then maybe the time has come for that rider.

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I agree Gaz, my point is that they all whinge (although little or none from Rossi this year that I can recall), and certainly Mick Doohan did, a point I raised when Stoner was first dubbed a whinger.

Rossi did whinge something fierce (probably justifiably) when he was at Ducati though, whilst Stoner (displaying I would say to his detractors somewhat of a professional attitude) seldom did about the bike he was currently riding whilst under contract to the marque concerned. In 2012 he thought he had been screwed by Dorna (rightly or wrongly, but with some element of truth imo), not Honda. His "whinging" about the new tyre was rather vindicated by PI 2013, as well as tyre failures for individual riders in other races; Valentino Rossi actually acknowledged that Stoner had been correct.

Rossi does have a rather more fetching way of delivering a whinge, and Mick Doohan had rather more gravitas and also mainly whinged when he had won.

Gaz said:

Not true or correct Theo as the nickname was present well before 2012 and actually started to surface in late(ish) 2007 when he became both competitive and somewhat outspoken as to the previous year's equipment.

He started 2007 as 'Casey Crasher' or 'Rolling Stoner' to many people (fans and media alike), ended 2007 as the World Champion which many people credited to anything but rider skill (subsequently many having recanted) and was already being called Moaner as he was often outspoken about many and varied topics.

Through 2012 he was vocal certainly, but no more so than in previous years

Either way, to call him a Moaner is to overlook the commentary of many others riders who have whinged, whined, moaned, groaned and spoken as much as he has through the years

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Its because he really was. Sure they all complain but there is a big difference between complaining and whining. Neither of which he had a shortage of. 2012 just made it a fact to all who wouldn't believe it. Anyone who complains and blames the media, the fans, the other riders, and motogp which he calls a circus for some of the reasons he retired is a whiny mother ....... I dont care what yall say. Even if I did have respect for him I would have lost it right then on the spot. Everything he has in life he owes to this circus, and even if that is how a rider feels his retire speech isn't the place to do talk about it.

I mean I could show you example after example but some of just don't care to believe it. I mean what kind of person asks a person about an injury just to be an .......?

Keshav said:

: (Channeling Barry)

Your ilk? Them's pretty strong words Doc.

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My uncle once told me that in his childhood he had asked my father (his older brother) what the word "ilk" meant; my father defined it for him as meaning "and sundry such .......s".

michaelm said:

I agree Gaz, my point is that they all whinge (although little or none from Rossi this year that I can recall), and certainly Mick Doohan did, a point I raised when Stoner was first dubbed a whinger.

Rossi did whinge something fierce (probably justifiably) when he was at Ducati though, whilst Stoner (displaying I would say to his detractors somewhat of a professional attitude) seldom did about the bike he was currently riding whilst under contract to the marque concerned. In 2012 he thought he had been screwed by Dorna (rightly or wrongly, but with some element of truth imo), not Honda. His "whinging" about the new tyre was rather vindicated by PI 2013, as well as tyre failures for individual riders in other races; Valentino Rossi actually acknowledged that Stoner had been correct.

Rossi does have a rather more fetching way of delivering a whinge, and Mick Doohan had rather more gravitas and also mainly whinged when he had won.

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All true Mick, all true but the person/rider I actually most often use for comparison is actually Colin Edwards as throughout the years he would pass comment that was very pointed at a rider/official/track/manufacturer/circumstance but due to his brilliant PR skills he would get a laugh and it would be taken as 'fun'.

Whilst we often over the years focus on Rossi's delivery of stinging rebukes or commentary, it is for me, Edwards who is and was the master at making a stinging comment come across as fun, and I for one miss his interviews

Gaz said:

All true Mick, all true but the person/rider I actually most often use for comparison is actually Colin Edwards as throughout the years he would pass comment that was very pointed at a rider/official/track/manufacturer/circumstance but due to his brilliant PR skills he would get a laugh and it would be taken as 'fun'.

Whilst we often over the years focus on Rossi's delivery of stinging rebukes or commentary, it is for me, Edwards who is and was the master at making a stinging comment come across as fun, and I for one miss his interviews

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Good point gaz. I hardly call what CE did as whining though. The reason he was funny is because usually his comments were not out of line or over the top but spot on. Now CS's style was the type that no matter how big or small the incident was he would have a full on go at a person. He would lose his cool, like a dude with road rage who makes a person taste his gun just for cutting someone off.

MdubSTYLIE said:

Its because he really was. Sure they all complain but there is a big difference between complaining and whining. Neither of which he had a shortage of. 2012 just made it a fact to all who wouldn't believe it. Anyone who complains and blames the media, the fans, the other riders, and motogp which he calls a circus for some of the reasons he retired is a whiny mother ....... I dont care what yall say. Even if I did have respect for him I would have lost it right then on the spot. Everything he has in life he owes to this circus, and even if that is how a rider feels his retire speech isn't the place to do talk about it.

I mean I could show you example after example but some of just don't care to believe it. I mean what kind of person asks a person about an injury just to be an .......?

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And Dubs, the alternate view could find comment after comment from other riders as well, even you have to admit that.

As for the difference between complaining and whining I personally find that somewhat laughable as isn't one the other?

Isn't a complaint a whine or am I missing something in translation between US and Aus (after all, Fanny means totally different things)?

As for his response to the injury, which I assume you mean the infamous comment after being taken out by Rossi, then personally I (like many at the time) thought it a brilliant piece of oneupmanship by a guy trying to be a total ....... to another who had bought a gaggle of news crews with him into another teams pit purely for the sake of a PR exercise.

If you want to talk distasteful, then his reported inquiries regarding (I think it was) Lorenzo's ankles in 2008 are more distasteful. All of which contrasts greatly with his response to Lorenzo's injury in 2011 where he went and visited JL in the medical centre at PI after JL lost the finger.

People need to get over it as he was an extremely complex and highly strung character who bought a lot to the sport, raised a level or two, made Rossi step up further (has since stepped up further again) and continues to be referred to by those in the know as the fastest rider ever, not the best but the fastest.

Oh, and having the fortitude and genuine belief in your reasons for retiring to knock back a confirmed 20 million US offer to ride one more year .......... lets create a list of people who have done that shall we (and there will be some, but there will be far more who will go that extra year or three)

MdubSTYLIE said:

Good point gaz. I hardly call what CE did as whining though. The reason he was funny is because usually his comments were not out of line or over the top but spot on. Now CS's style was the type that no matter how big or small the incident was he would have a full on go at a person. He would lose his cool, like a dude with road rage who makes a person taste his gun just for cutting someone off.

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Not always true Dubs.

Most often his critique was at officialdom (some exceptions certainly) for allowing much of what caused his 'grief' to occur such as slow riders on the race line, riders waiting for tows, rule changes and so on. As an example, he 'raised' the point of slow riders on the fast line for years and was ignored by officials and ridiculed by fans and media ............. yet this year riders are being penalised for it as it is now seen as a safety concern. He also 'raised' points about the astro-turf on the outside of some bends as his view was that riders would not slow down and would instead start to use that as part of the track, history shows him to have been tragically correct.

He rarely actually got personal with riders when raising point in terms of attacking the riders ability etc (he and Rossi clearly detest the other) but may have mentioned a rider when outlining a circumstance (just as they all will) and in that aspect I recall mentions of Hayden, Abraham (who famously fought back), RdP and Barbera but no doubt would have been others.

Interestingly enough, for a guy that many rate as 'hated' (or similar) he is quite well regarded by many past and present riders as a very compelling and interesting person (still spends time with Spies, Edwards etc).

A .... you VR turns into a Stoner Boner thread? Why cant we just focus on shitting turds on Rossi?

Because SCAT is not everyone's cup of tea Jums

So instead we have decided to revisit 2007 - 2012 for old times sake

Gaz said:

And Dubs, the alternate view could find comment after comment from other riders as well, even you have to admit that.

As for the difference between complaining and whining I personally find that somewhat laughable as isn't one the other?

Isn't a complaint a whine or am I missing something in translation between US and Aus (after all, Fanny means totally different things)?

As for his response to the injury, which I assume you mean the infamous comment after being taken out by Rossi, then personally I (like many at the time) thought it a brilliant piece of oneupmanship by a guy trying to be a total ....... to another who had bought a gaggle of news crews with him into another teams pit purely for the sake of a PR exercise.

If you want to talk distasteful, then his reported inquiries regarding (I think it was) Lorenzo's ankles in 2008 are more distasteful. All of which contrasts greatly with his response to Lorenzo's injury in 2011 where he went and visited JL in the medical centre at PI after JL lost the finger.

People need to get over it as he was an extremely complex and highly strung character who bought a lot to the sport, raised a level or two, made Rossi step up further (has since stepped up further again) and continues to be referred to by those in the know as the fastest rider ever, not the best but the fastest.

Oh, and having the fortitude and genuine belief in your reasons for retiring to knock back a confirmed 20 million US offer to ride one more year .......... lets create a list of people who have done that shall we (and there will be some, but there will be far more who will go that extra year or three)

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Complaining and whining are different in the U.S. Not a lot but whining is childish like a baby, any grown man who whines is well kind of a ...... Whining is throwing a fit, not manly at all. Its always implies negatively on the person whining. But you can have a actual complaint. You can complain because you don't like something but you should never whine.

I mean I chuckled at whole Jerez thing. That was not an example of Casey being whining or a ..... but rather did it really deserve all that? He stood in the rain a clapped. Point taken. That probably even caused the Doc to come into the pit box. Rossi coming in with his helmet on, ..... move. But his apology was an actual apology, debatable I suppose. But the point is the words were real. Caseys response, "hows the shoulder?" Again point taken. And then "well I guess your ambition outweighs your........"point taken. Do you get what I'm saying?

Gaz said:

Not always true Dubs.

Most often his critique was at officialdom (some exceptions certainly) for allowing much of what caused his 'grief' to occur such as slow riders on the race line, riders waiting for tows, rule changes and so on. As an example, he 'raised' the point of slow riders on the fast line for years and was ignored by officials and ridiculed by fans and media ............. yet this year riders are being penalised for it as it is now seen as a safety concern. He also 'raised' points about the astro-turf on the outside of some bends as his view was that riders would not slow down and would instead start to use that as part of the track, history shows him to have been tragically correct.

He rarely actually got personal with riders when raising point in terms of attacking the riders ability etc (he and Rossi clearly detest the other) but may have mentioned a rider when outlining a circumstance (just as they all will) and in that aspect I recall mentions of Hayden, Abraham (who famously fought back), RdP and Barbera but no doubt would have been others.

Interestingly enough, for a guy that many rate as 'hated' (or similar) he is quite well regarded by many past and present riders as a very compelling and interesting person (still spends time with Spies, Edwards etc).

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Yes he was. And when it came to safety issues its good that he was so outspoken. But his behavior around slower riders was concerning. Slower riders is part of practice and quali, and they have made changes to help with that. Likely because of his complaining, Marquez at Phillip Island helped a lot also. But he would complain about these riders and then blow their doors off in such an unsafe manner. He wouldn't allow riders to balk him up and claimed them to be unsafe.

MdubSTYLIE said:

Yes he was. And when it came to safety issues its good that he was so outspoken. But his behavior around slower riders was concerning. Slower riders is part of practice and quali, and they have made changes to help with that. Likely because of his complaining, Marquez at Phillip Island helped a lot also. But he would complain about these riders and then blow their doors off in such an unsafe manner. He wouldn't allow riders to balk him up and claimed them to be unsafe.

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Actually Mdub, aside from the RdP (for which he was duly punished, although IMO he did get off lightly) and Abraham incidents (for which Abraham 'approached' Stoner afterwards and made his displeasure known), I cannot recall any other incident of 'buzzing' that had been reported (not doubting, just from memory).

At the same time I am aware that he apologised to Lorenzo for what he felt was a 'to close pass' made on his behalf around the outside at Laguna, although Lorenzo had no issues at all with the pass.

As for riders baulking, in all forms of motorcycle racing that is dangerous and at worst could prove fatal (sadly something that has happened this year and last in some national level series) under some circumstances when a slow rider is indeed found on the race line.

But Jums has spoken and wants this thread returned to Rossi somehow so what say we discuss the font used for the number 46. What is that actual font?