Yes, that's the point. It probably won't be 21 liters, though, more likely 24. Ezpeleta wants a single set of rules that allows everyone to be reasonably competitive. Stoner, Rossi, Lorenzo are all worth half a second, so while the factories have the Aliens, they will always win the championship. And they are the only people who can afford them.
CRT - Does anyone really understand the rules
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Yes, that's the point. It probably won't be 21 liters, though, more likely 24. Ezpeleta wants a single set of rules that allows everyone to be reasonably competitive. Stoner, Rossi, Lorenzo are all worth half a second, so while the factories have the Aliens, they will always win the championship. And they are the only people who can afford them.
Hopefully, they will see the folly of using 21L to make bikes go slower. It's an extraordinarily expensive way to reduce top speed and lap times b/c it sends teams scrambling for cornerspeed, aerodynamic advantage, and fuel-saving technologies (none of which are cheap).
Perhaps the manufacturers will sponsor a war in the CRT ranks, but the factories are not reliable. We still don't even know if the MSMA will show up for competition in 2013. Preziosi seems the most tolerant of the spec-ECU 16,000rpm limit, but even he said that certain aspects of the plan were 'stupid'. I also wonder how long CRT will be competitive and cheap. If Ducati make their D16RR engine available in 2013 (assuming 86mm bore will be legal then), CRT competition is going to get a lot more expensive. If one of the other manufacturers responds by releasing a better engine, everyone will have to redesign their chassis for the new engine.
Not bashing CRT by any means, but as I said before, without complicated rules, they'll never be able to enforce production-based engines. Just like 750cc SBK with loose homologation rules, the competitors will begin sprinting towards prototypes.
From what I have seen, there doesn't really seem to be any limitations on the engines CRT teams use, except bore, and chain driven valves.
Will we ever get to a point where factories offer MotoGP spec engines only for sale to CRT teams, provided they are supplied without any ongoing factory support.
Could the likes of Pramac buy GP12 spec engines, and run them in a (much cheaper) FTR frame and setup (sound familiar to anyone), and run as CRT, taking advantage of the additional fuel. It will be much cheaper for Ducati to produce 25 MotoGP engines, with 15 being paid for by someone else, than to have only 10 engines in operation all for their own use.
The factories could supply MotoGP spec engines for commercial sale.
Could other companies get to the point of producing prototype spec engines for CRT teams.
Obviously CRT will bring Aprilia back to MotoGP with their WSBK spec engines, and will indroduce BMW, but what about the possibility of these factories supplying for sale further modified prototype spec engines for commercial sale, or bringing Kawasaki back as an engine supplier only to CRT teams building non production prototype style engines (using their previous MotoGP experience). What about MV building an engine based on the F4RR engine, which has 200+ Hp straight out of the box.
Is there anything to stop a company like (for example) Cosworth going and developing a good MotoGP engine for commercial sale to CRT teams, fitting it with all the existing electronics, and suppliying engines to CRT teams, with support. Would support from a company like Cosworth be considered 'factory' support for a CRT team.
How does 'Factory Support' relate to teams getting support from frame builders like FTR.
I think the engine, and making enough power, will be the least of the concerns for the CRT teams. I think it will be about building the best frames, getting the best electronics support, and getting the best riders.
Without changing the fundamental areas where costs blow out in MotoGP (mainly electronics), it is going to get back to the same problem. A CRT team with big enough budget, could build a bike just as good as a factory MotoGP bike.
The costs blow out and we are back to the rich teams will win, and the poorer teams wont.
It will never happen, because the business model does not stack up, but if a team like Red Bull came in toMotoGP, with a huge budget, employed the best people from existing teams, and built their own bikes in house as a CRT team, there is no reason why they couldn't challenge Honda and Yamaha.
I'll go a step further;
Is there anything to stop Suzuki selling their existing 800cc MotoGP bikes to a private team, boring the engines as far as possible (to something like 880cc), and running them as CRT bikes (wouldn't be a bad starting point).
There are so many grey areas in what will be allowed and what wont.
Personally, I think 2012 is going to suck, but I think if MotoGP survives, 2013 and beyond could be really good with everyone on CRT bikes, which are ultimately going to be different degrees of prototype bikes anyway, with outsourced parts, and no factory presence.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Nuts, all good questions. Thats why i dont think peeps will go use the chassis & engine of the CRT winner any more than peeps used Morowaki when Elias won in Moto2 (as somebody has suggested).
Its a great opportunity for factories to slap a sticker on a bike that is using their loosley based "production" engine for peanuts of what Honda & Yamaha are paying now for that sticker's exposure. And u can bet ur ..., Carmelo will start giving said CRT stickers TV air time, something the .... didnt do for KR and his sponsors.
Its a great opportunity for factories to slap a sticker on a bike that is using their loosley based "production" engine for peanuts of what Honda & Yamaha are paying now for that sticker's exposure. And u can bet ur ..., Carmelo will start giving said CRT stickers TV air time, something the .... didnt do for KR and his sponsors.
Thanks for reminding me about the R7 lol. Do you think the engines will have much room to grow with the rev limit though? I'm not sure how it'll shake out. The strategies used when the limited revs and electronics goes into play will be interesting to watch for sure. I think you might appreciate this link about how different the Duc is in weight distribution to the Japanese bikes, I don't know how good the technical information is because of google translate but the pictures are good. Ducati must have so much on their plate right now, the new rules have made their street engines irrelevant to this series.http://manziana.motocorse.com/blog/31078_Che_cerca_la_Ducati_ora.php
The manufacturers already sell what they are comfortable selling, imo. They might be willing to sell a bit more tech, but the manufacturers moved away from 750cc homologation specials partially due to the level of technology they had to sell. They definitely won't sell the current MotoGP equipment b/c CRT will sell it along to someone else. If CRT can't sell the engines, it's a lease arrangement.
Best chance for high performance CRT engines is high performance WSBK engines, imo. If WSBK eliminate aftermarket pistons and rods, titanium parts will have to be equipped on limited-edition production bikes. That would be a huge boost for CRTs b/c they have access to affordable titanium internals, and an even bigger boost for WSBK private teams. Ducati might prove me wrong though. They don't mind selling exotic equipment. A small racing company could sell MotoGP equipment, but they have the same problem as factories. Someone else can use the technology. The someone else can't sell borrowed if it's patented, but no laws against using it. That's why bikes are kept under lock and key.
Chassis will be the main concern, but the chassis manufacturers have already demonstrated their proficiency. FTR and Suter have already been part of MotoGP, and the other chassis manufacturers have proven to be respectable at their craft as well. Kalex are an advanced manufacturing company as well.
Horsepower growth at 16,000rpm? No, but I'm not Honda.
I presume 24L will send things back to 24L 990cc era. Wheelie suppression will be critical, but without knowing the min weight (ballast amount), we don't know how much they will re-engineer the bikes. In the 24L 990 era, Rossi M1 was the gold standard. The engine was jammed directly behind the front wheel, and the rear shock transferred lots of weight under throttle. Maybe everyone goes inline? I have no idea.
Thanks for the link, wading through the google translate now
hmmmm..the pinnacle of MotoGP ? I say the final year where we had fully developed 500`s mixing it with the 990`s,excellent battles.That was THE pinnacle of the sport for me.
Joined Feb 2009
3K Posts | 2+
siebenbürgen süße heimat!
it was certainly the best time for anybody interested in different kinds of motorcycles. i was sad to see the 500 phased out so quickly, just imagine how awesome the era 2002-2003 could have been if the 4 strokes were only allowed say 900cc .desmosedicis racing nsr500s, m1s and cubes taking on the yzf500 and the rgv500....
is there a cd out there with good recordings of the best bikes in gp history?
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
Get off the fence Kesh.Cast your lot with the CRT dooms dayers, Pov, Birdman, etal OR come into the light with me. Otherwise, you won't have the pleasure of telling them 'I told you so' and watch them try to squirm out of their previous position.
I don't have time to go back and search all my posts bro - but I've been on board with CRTs for some time now. I think there's huge potential.
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
I think the most important word in CRT is "claiming". Make the claiming process robust and transparent, and the details of regulations will be unimportant if teams can easily claim another's engine/transmission for 20K euros.
Production, prototype, who cares, as long as all teams face the prospect of their expensive engine being claimed for a nominal price. That's why an all-CRT grid for 2013 should be the goal. And with Kawasaki and Suzuki gone, Dorna should have the political and legal power to give orders to the MSMA (all 3 members).
Everyone uses the same engine in Moto2; therefore, the competition is somewhat equalized. CRTs with 24L of fuel at 81mm bore are not equalized, and the opportunity cost of failure is much higher in GP. If the opportunity cost of development is higher, teams should trend towards purchasing competitive equipment more quickly. MotoGP also has fewer available entries, and backmarkers will find themselves on the chopping block whether they are developing new equipment or not.
Does anyone else think that these CRT bikes/racers will be lapped and be in the way of the regular MotoGP teams effecting the outcome of the race? How much testing do these new CRT teams have throughout the off-season?
I don't want it to be like LeMans racing.
I don't want it to be like LeMans racing.
Especially if it's Rossi being beaten. Rog's gonna be steamed.
LMAO every bike site on the net would implode
Yes. I'd be astonished if their weren't a couple jokers in the field. I'm not terribly confident about the BQR Kawasaki's ATM, but I don't know what kind of engine support they will get. The Gresini Honda/FTR doesn't look great either, but Gresini can probably score parts from Honda.
Joined Mar 2005
7K Posts | 20+
Woody Creek
If they're getting parts from Honda, will the GPC still consider it a CRT entry? I don't see how that bike will be competitive, but I've looked stupid in the past.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
I don't know, but if Honda want to do something, they do it. Not sure anyone can stop them, particularly since no one understands the rules anyway.
