CRT - Does anyone really understand the rules

birdman · Nov 15, 2011

Kropotkin said:
That is the ultimate goal. But not everyone is happy, the factories are not amused at this prospect, they want to stack the deck so they always win. They don't realize that the deck is already stacked, as they are the only people who can afford the Stoners, Lorenzos and Rossis of this world.

What about Repsol or Fiat. What can they afford? Put every rider on a CRT. How fast and expensive will Puig's Peddles Repsol bike be? How about Rossi's Fiat CRT. Two disguised factory bikes against a bunch of semi-pros doesnt sound much like forward progress. Who sponsors Spies, can he find $5M? Wont mention the other guy whingealot. The deck can be stacked many ways, can still end up in the exact same situation as present. Just cap the spending and be done with it. Pain in the ... to have to bring in the auditors to find the hidden cash yet every other sport does it with the salary cap - to at least try to keep the competition even.

Imo it was better before when factories plucked riders from all over the world based more on how fast they were, not so much how much sponsorship they would bring (or passport).

A quick glance indicates SBK has a wider spread of rider nationalities and less concentration of race destinations.

End doom and gloom negative rant. Sorry bout that. I will still be a supporter, yet might have no choice but to have to go to SBK to see a local rider.

mylexicon · Nov 15, 2011

Mr Squiggle said:
I realy enjoy your take on things Lex....I dont pretend to understand what you are always talking about but you seem to have a very interesting perspective on things that often challenges my preconceived notions about a particular subject.

Krop....fantastic job with the 3 part article you wrote on the current state of MotoGP. There was a lot to think about and digest but it was very well written and explained many of the aspects I was having trouble understanding. I recommend everyone read it.....Cheers.

Thanks Squig

I try to pass information along as I find it. A lot of good stuff comes from Krop's site.

hawkdriver · Nov 15, 2011

DI is not banned in Moto GP, high presure fuel systems are. There is currently more than one low pressure DI system that would be compatible with GP rules. The system licsened by Orbital of Australia is one such system, the same comapany Ford and GM use for their DI. The motogp technical regualations are available on the FIM website.

Two very interseting tweets from Dennis Noyes today

1. Suzuki were racing with SBK level technology under a pnuematic valve closing top end.

2. Alex Hoffmann will be testing an RSV4 with BS tires and carbon brakes to help find a way for chassis development of the CRT package.

Hoffmann is the Aprilia WSBK team test rider and the last time he was testing the RSV4, the GP12 was also being tested by Rossi. Hoffmann said he thought the RSV4 was fast until he met the GP12 on the straight. The other Duc on track during that test was the GP11 ridden by Battaini and Battaini said he had the RSV4 on his tail. Hoffmann will be testing the RSV4 based CRT bike this Wed-Fri at Valencia and the bike will be equiped with the parts that were banned by WSBK, this time the bike will have more than 220hp. http://www.speedweek.de/art_22869.html this will probably be one of the best CRT bikes on the grid because they already have a ton of data available.

mylexicon · Nov 15, 2011

hawkdriver said:
DI is not banned in Moto GP, high presure fuel systems are. There is currently more than one low pressure DI system that would be compatible with GP rules. The system licsened by Orbital of Australia is one such system, the same comapany Ford and GM use for their DI. The motogp technical regualations are available on the FIM website.

Two very interseting tweets from Dennis Noyes today

1. Suzuki were racing with SBK level technology under a pnuematic valve closing top end.

2. Alex Hoffmann will be testing an RSV4 with BS tires and carbon brakes to help find a way for chassis development of the CRT package.

Hoffmann is the Aprilia WSBK team test rider and the last time he was testing the RSV4, the GP12 was also being tested by Rossi. Hoffmann said he thought the RSV4 was fast until he met the GP12 on the straight. The other Duc on track during that test was the GP11 ridden by Battaini and Battaini said he had the RSV4 on his tail. Hoffmann will be testing the RSV4 based CRT bike this Wed-Fri at Valencia and the bike will be equiped with the parts that were banned by WSBK, this time the bike will have more than 220hp. http://www.speedweek.de/art_22869.html this will probably be one of the best CRT bikes on the grid because they already have a ton of data available.

You're right. DI is not explicitly banned. I thought I remembered something about the fuel injection being upstream of the cylinder, but it was the regulator downstream of the pump before the injector. IIRC, the fuel pressure regulations were designed to ban DI and common rail, but I wouldn't put it past a MotoGP team to use some kind of crazy DI/manifold dual injection system.

hawkdriver · Nov 16, 2011

Yeah Honda is going to be running something new in the area of fuel injection this year. Another very interesting technology used by Evinrude(2 stroke boat engines) is using a coil like in a speaker to push fuel to 600 psi, it's also done down stream of the regulator and powered only by the magneto

mylexicon said:
You're right. DI is not explicitly banned. I thought I remembered something about the fuel injection being upstream of the cylinder, but it was the regulator downstream of the pump before the injector. IIRC, the fuel pressure regulations were designed to ban DI and common rail, but I wouldn't put it past a MotoGP team to use some kind of crazy DI/manifold dual injection system.

povol · Nov 16, 2011

Jumkie said:
I remember Rossi said once, 'tires are so important that if Bridgestones asks me to swim to Japan to get them, I will.' (Paraphrasing)

Just thinking out loud here, but I hope Bridgestone makes a tire that will at very least outperform Wsbk in terms of lap time then, otherwise, it will be very hard for the perception to continue that GP is still the pinnacle of the sport and not its rival sister series.

I thought it didnt matter, but here you are thinking out loud. I had to look twice to see who posted this doom and gloom.

Kropotkin · Nov 16, 2011

What makes MotoGP the pinnacle? Is it just a matter of lap times?

Jumkie · Nov 16, 2011

povol said:
I thought it didnt matter, but here you are thinking out loud. I had to look twice to see who posted this doom and gloom.

Poor Pov, ur desperation makes me pity u buddy. But i still wont let u off the hook. U still havent agreed to a wager. Im willing to stand behind my words, u have been backpedaling since i pressed u to ante up.

Btw, this was a point on tire performance as oppose to the nature of engineering for the new CRT formula. I wouldnt expect u to see the difference. After all, u still cant make the connection between arbitrary rules and the machines created as a result. But for u "prototype" is something that must come from heaven.

So Pov, will u bet me that CRTs will eventually match "prototype 800s" in terms of lap times? Or u gonna continue to dodge? Haha. Im enjoying u backpedal buddy. Ur not so bold now, eh? Shut up or put up.

Jumkie · Nov 16, 2011

Kropotkin said:
What makes MotoGP the pinnacle? Is it just a matter of lap times?

Its certainly one big measure. Helps aid the persception that its the top.

My deer (not misspelling) friend Pov has declared he will protest CRTs by no longer attending GPs cuz it no longer a "prototype" series. Citing lap times as proof.

Edit: but he will watch it on TV on the occasion he just happens to be flipping through channels and runs across a race.

povol · Nov 16, 2011

Jumkie said:
Poor Pov, ur desperation makes me pity u buddy. But i still wont let u off the hook. U still havent agreed to a wager. Im willing to stand behind my words, u have been backpedaling since i pressed u to ante up.

Btw, this was a point on tire performance as oppose to the nature of engineering for the new CRT formula. I wouldnt expect u to see the difference. After all, u still cant make the connection between arbitrary rules and the machines created as a result. But for u "prototype" is something that must come from heaven.

So Pov, will u bet me that CRTs will eventually match "prototype 800s" in terms of lap times? Or u gonna continue to dodge? Haha. Im enjoying u backpedal buddy. Ur not so bold now, eh? Shut up or put up.

One or all?.

All 800's are not created equal.

Will you bet me that "a" Moto2 bike will match or surpass "a" Moto GP CRT in terms of lap times. Hint, this is a sucker bet, just like yours

povol · Nov 16, 2011

Jumkie said:
Its certainly one big measure. Helps aid the persception that its the top.

My deer (not misspelling) friend Pov has declared he will protest CRTs by no longer attending GPs cuz it no longer a "prototype" series. Citing lap times as proof.

Edit: but he will watch it on TV on the occasion he just happens to be flipping through channels and runs across a race.

Sometimes being clever can backfire, huh!

Jumkie · Nov 16, 2011

povol said:
One or all?.

All 800's are not created equal.

Will you bet me that "a" Moto2 bike will match or surpass "a" Moto GP CRT in terms of lap times. Hint, this is a sucker bet, just like yours

Ur the one threatening to leave the sport and never set foot at a GP event because of ur fear of CRTs. (im laughing as i type it). U lost dude, now to save face u call it a sucker bet. Man up dude. Dont be a coward.

povol · Nov 16, 2011

Kropotkin said:
What makes MotoGP the pinnacle? Is it just a matter of lap times?

It certainly isnt the Ducati bikini show. What makes it the pinnacle to you, if it isnt the undeniable performance king, in a world chocked full of other racing series. Just curious

povol · Nov 16, 2011

Jumkie said:
Ur the one threatening to leave the sport and never set foot at a GP event because of ur fear of CRTs. (im laughing as i type it). U lost dude, now to save face u call it a sucker bet. Man up dude. Dont be a coward.

If it helps you sleep at night, you can call yourself a winner. How about my other bet, im giving you the advantage of 400 cc's and 100 horsepower, surely thats a no lose proposition. Its like im handing you money, dont be scared.

Jumkie · Nov 16, 2011

povol said:
Sometimes being clever can backfire, huh!

Not really, my point was that ur recent fear of CRTs is like a deer stuck looking into headlights...poor dumb ....... doesnt have enuf sense to move on even when getting stuck means he'll get ran over for being stupid. Like u.

Ah poor Pov, now u've turned to looking for spelling errors? Hahaha. Im enjoying this.

mylexicon · Nov 16, 2011

Kropotkin said:
What makes MotoGP the pinnacle? Is it just a matter of lap times?

The technical regulations, competitiveness, creativity, media exposure, and the magnitude of the traveling circus. That's what I care about anyway. All of those categories are waning with the MSMA, but CRT has a long way to go in a very short time if it hopes to assume responsibility for fueling MotoGP.

povol · Nov 16, 2011

mylexicon said:
The technical regulations, competitiveness, creativity, media exposure, and the magnitude of the traveling circus. That's what I care about anyway. All of those categories are waning with the MSMA, but CRT has a long way to go in a very short time if it hopes to assume responsibility for fueling MotoGP.

Who has been to a WSBK event lately? Is their presentation head and shoulders below what GP offers?. Is GP's presentation so superior, as to possibly fool the racing public into believing it is the pinnacle, if it actually trailed in performance. If yes is the answer, please cite why you think so. Back when AMA was a professional Superbike series, i attended 4-5 races a year and was very impressed with the presentation. They had all the shiny rigs, the big colorful tents full of product from all the manufacturers,, nice vendors row, decent food, restroom facilities etc:. Media exposure sucked balls,but as far as just race day experience, nothing i have seen at a GP event blew the AMA experience away, except the bikes of course. One other thing, . the AMA was maddening at times as they floundered around, trying to stay on schedule. Moto Gp you can set your watch to. Can Moto GP be considered the pinnacle of bike racing if they are slower than WSBK?

Kropotkin · Nov 16, 2011

povol said:
It certainly isnt the Ducati bikini show. What makes it the pinnacle to you, if it isnt the undeniable performance king, in a world chocked full of other racing series. Just curious

To me, the best riders in the world make it the pinnacle. I like having as few rules as possible too, but it is a contest between riders, and to a lesser extent their crews.

I hate the 800s (and the current 1000cc rules) because there are still too many pointless things limited, like a capacity limit. You only need a fuel limit or a capacity limit, not both (and in fact a spec tire makes both redundant). And why dustbin fairings and super/turbocharging is banned is a mystery too. So the series is a long way from being the technological pinnacle, to me the technological pinnacle in motorcycle racing is TTXGP. Those bikes are the future of racing, and the future of transport, and MotoGP is just a show. So either ease up on the rules and let people do what they want, or force some kind of equality through the rulebook and let's go racing.

mylexicon · Nov 16, 2011

povol said:
Who has been to a WSBK event lately? Is their presentation head and shoulders below what GP offers?. Is GP's presentation so superior, as to possibly fool the racing public into believing it is the pinnacle, if it actually trailed in performance. If yes is the answer, please cite why you think so. Back when AMA was a professional Superbike series, i attended 4-5 races a year and was very impressed with the presentation. They had all the shiny rigs, the big colorful tents full of product from all the manufacturers,, nice vendors row, decent food, restroom facilities etc:. Media exposure sucked balls,but as far as just race day experience, nothing i have seen at a GP event blew the AMA experience away, except the bikes of course. . The AMA was maddening at times as they floundered around, trying to stay on schedule. Moto Gp you can set your watch to. Can Moto GP be considered the pinnacle of bike racing if they are slower than WSBK?

Yes, WSBKs presentation is inferior. No high-motion glam shots (just standard slow mo). Bad camera positions and fewer cameras. No onboard coverage previously, now they have poor onboard cameras. Poor promotion and bad sponsorship recruitment. To make matters worse, IMS has complained from the get go that they do not get equal promotion from the manufacturers. The Flamminis are bad promoters AND they expect the MSMA to do their job for them.

The coverage and presentation really is worlds apart and that why the can't generate media revenue. They have viewers but they don't have the same level of professionalism as Dorna. As I said in another post, the biggest change to SBK post-Bridgepoint-purchase could be the introduction of Dorna know-how.

Furthermore, you don't know that SBK is horsepower capped and you refuse to believe me. As Cyclenews has dutifully reported, you believe Alex Hoffmans RSV4 will have an additional 25hp, during CRT feasibility testing, thanks to illegal parts. In reality, they are turning off the rev limiter, something they've not tested extensively b/c the RSV4 never runs flat out in WSBK. As minor as that minor detail may seem, it makes a world of difference to the manufacturers.

Kropotkin · Nov 16, 2011

mylexicon said:
Furthermore, you don't know that SBK is horsepower capped and you refuse to believe me. As Cyclenews has dutifully reported, you believe Alex Hoffmans RSV4 will have an additional 25hp, during CRT feasibility testing, thanks to illegal parts. In reality, they are turning off the rev limiter, something they've not tested extensively b/c the RSV4 never runs flat out in WSBK. As minor as that minor detail may seem, it makes a world of difference to the manufacturers.

Lex, you know a hell of a lot about motorcycle racing, and are one hell of a smart guy, but there is no rev limit in WSBK. Guaranteed.

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