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CRT - Does anyone really understand the rules

povol said:
Or, because a bunch of whiney ... newcomers to the sport didnt understand it, and demanded to be properly entertained like they were in other sport venues.
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The whiny-... newcomers don't seem any different than the whiny-... oldcomers.



The problem with MotoGP is the technical regulations, specifically the fuel-limited performance controls. I know you must believe in the infallibility of the manufacturers to enjoy the sport, but the MSMA did this to themselves by ignoring the lesson of Group C. Fuel-limiting doesn't rein in top speed, and fuel-limiting doesn't create production relevant technology. The manufacturers failed to achieve their technological initiatives, but they succeeded in killing the 80/20 formula and the fire breathing 990s that brought so much happiness to the fans. For all of their technical knowledge, the MSMA are not a very intelligent collective.
 
frethammer said:
Whats the difference watching a 17-14 bike grid with one or two racers up front while watching the ones in the middle go round and round and having battles in the back of the pack to a 24-21 bike grid with one or two racers up front while watching the ones in the middle go round and round and having battles in the back of the pack?
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I think between 2 and 5 seconds a lap.
 
As long as MotoGP's rules reflect the actual spirit of the sport then GP will last. If EZY keeps making changes in the vein of Cost Cutting then we will obviously have issues because it doesn't limit costs rather it serves to add them. This is, and has been the case of the 800's, which were said to be implemented due to safety and cost reasons. BS!! It wasn't safer nor did it shave costs, especially when they limited the motors. All that did was push more money into dev costs so that they could dev a more reliable motor. I fear GP in going to be more or less a glorified SBK very soon. So then why bother watching cause they won't be the best of the best ON the best bikes. It will be parts bin racing at its best though lol. Bring the tire wars back, let tobacco companies hock their goods again, no more fuel limits, run whatcha brung, no limits on cylinders in the motors, let the sport breathe again.
 
Sounds good Rockgod01.

Moto GP has too much preassure from all kinds of directions.It's obviously quite difficult be the pinacle of motorsports,doing EVERYTHING in a politically correct manner,and at the same time not cost too much.Being that perfect costs money!



I suspect they want to piss off the factories so much no factory want to have a team.In THAT case,the CRT could work.Then the factories aren't so responible to be the perfect spokesmen for environment and they can stop the ........-fuelregulation,and also bring tobacco companies back,and it perhaps wouldn't have to be boring productionengines if there were more money.The factories could still supply custome engines.



 
Anders GUZZI said:
Sounds good Rockgod01.

Moto GP has too much preassure from all kinds of directions.It's obviously quite difficult be the pinacle of motorsports,doing EVERYTHING in a politically correct manner,and at the same time not cost too much.Being that perfect costs money!



I suspect they want to piss off the factories so much no factory want to have a team.In THAT case,the CRT could work.Then the factories aren't so responible to be the perfect spokesmen for environment and they can stop the ........-fuelregulation,and also bring tobacco companies back,and it perhaps wouldn't have to be boring productionengines if there were more money.The factories could still supply custome engines.



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If the sport goes total CRT then mark my word, motogp will die within a few years no doubt. You can't piss off the factories and then yet expect they are going to still race in some form or not. They can easily take all their bikes, sponsors, etc right to WSBK where it pays the companies to run their best, against the best. GP will be a club racing series with guys no one gives a .... about. The problem is that you have the factories who want to race but not enough of them. Then you have EZY trying to inject some life into the sport by making CRTs legal when clearly they were never wanted ie. WCM. NOW all of a sudden they are welcomed and being touted as the NEW motoGP and how great they will be, and the new direction of the sport blah blah blah. No longer will it be the most badass bikes on the planet, that will be WSBK easily if CRT's are the new direction. If Dorna is smart, and they have so far proven otherwise, they will make it just fine to be a major factory racing the CRT's. Because when they move down this road and soon find out that no one gives a .... about CRT's and how "close" the racing is, they will be wishing they didn't go this route. If it were all about close racing then we would all be watching club racing and various other series. MOTOGP is about being the best of the best on the best. It will no longer be the best of anything as it looks. They need to relax the rules, let the companies do what they want, let tobacco come back in, in a big way. If the sport is to survive it must do it on the merits of it's premise.
 
ROCKGOD01 said:
If the sport goes total CRT then mark my word, motogp will die within a few years no doubt. You can't piss off the factories and then yet expect they are going to still race in some form or not. They can easily take all their bikes, sponsors, etc right to WSBK where it pays the companies to run their best, against the best. GP will be a club racing series with guys no one gives a .... about. The problem is that you have the factories who want to race but not enough of them. Then you have EZY trying to inject some life into the sport by making CRTs legal when clearly they were never wanted ie. WCM. NOW all of a sudden they are welcomed and being touted as the NEW motoGP and how great they will be, and the new direction of the sport blah blah blah. No longer will it be the most badass bikes on the planet, that will be WSBK easily if CRT's are the new direction. If Dorna is smart, and they have so far proven otherwise, they will make it just fine to be a major factory racing the CRT's. Because when they move down this road and soon find out that no one gives a .... about CRT's and how "close" the racing is, they will be wishing they didn't go this route. If it were all about close racing then we would all be watching club racing and various other series. MOTOGP is about being the best of the best on the best. It will no longer be the best of anything as it looks. They need to relax the rules, let the companies do what they want, let tobacco come back in, in a big way. If the sport is to survive it must do it on the merits of it's premise.
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One of the CRT bikes is a full prototype.



CRT is not production-engines in prototype frames, though that configuration will soon be legal. WCM was wanted, but the courts decided WCM was illegal due to a contract between the FIM and IMS that hinged on homologation according to Ezpeleta.



CRT is being played up as 'the next big thing' in case the MSMA withdraw.
 
mylexicon said:
One of the CRT bikes is a full prototype.



CRT is not production-engines in prototype frames, though that configuration will soon be legal. WCM was wanted, but the courts decided WCM was illegal due to a contract between the FIM and IMS that hinged on homologation according to Ezpeleta.



CRT is being played up as 'the next big thing' in case the MSMA withdraw.
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Hey CRT it up all anyone wants. It does take away the mistique of the sport making parts bin bikes regardless of if they are labeled full prototypes. My bet is that people won't take to them, most of all the best of the best riders in the world. I hope the MSMA gets out from under Ezy because his decisions have been garbage. Moto Gp is the new/next IROC, Nascar contrived racing. I could care less that there are 500 bikes on the grid...whooopeeeeeee, again, glorified club racing.



MotoGP= The best of the best riding the best



CRT= Faux Prototypes, contrived racing....at its best.



Result...The true MotoGP will be dead soon enough. Then WSBK will take over being the pinnicle of Motorcycle racing.
 
as much as i admire many of the prototypes past and present, the most important factor in gp racing for me is the best riders in the world competing against each other.

if crt bikes are indeed less electronic dependent and cheaper, that would result in more guys being on competitive machinery and would highlight their styles and talents.

would be a bit of a loss in terms of ultra high performance engines (which is not that important considering the inevitable death of combustion engines in the long term) but i'd be over the moon if we got the riders all on roughly equally good bikes that are not as electronically restricted as the current prototypes making talent the sole factor in the equation
 
ROCKGOD01 said:
Hey CRT it up all anyone wants. It does take away the mistique of the sport making parts bin bikes regardless of if they are labeled full prototypes. My bet is that people won't take to them, most of all the best of the best riders in the world. I hope the MSMA gets out from under Ezy because his decisions have been garbage. Moto Gp is the new/next IROC, Nascar contrived racing. I could care less that there are 500 bikes on the grid...whooopeeeeeee, again, glorified club racing.



MotoGP= The best of the best riding the best



CRT= Faux Prototypes, contrived racing....at its best.



Result...The true MotoGP will be dead soon enough. Then WSBK will take over being the pinnicle of Motorcycle racing.
Click to expand...



Do you know what it takes to ban prototype engines? Look at WSBK or any production racing series. First step: Adopt FIM homologation for production engines. Second step: Write an entirely new rulebook of allowable modifications. Third step: Police the new rulebook by hiring dozens of extra officials. Fourth step: Continually rewrite the FIM homologation papers for production engines as the manufacturers exploit any loophole they can find.



Full prototypes are not going anywhere, unless the people who build them decide to stop participating. Even if the MSMA leave, they've done such a good job of castigating former members that new companies will probably join to fill the void left by the MSMA.



I don't understand the prototype vs. production-derived-machines debate. It isn't real, and it makes the fans look uninformed. The time to rant against SuperSuperbikes was two years ago when Ezpeleta first started pushing CRT without any indication as to how it would work. Since then, he has allowed full prototypes under CRT, and he has not made a single public appeal to adopt FIM homologation for production engines nor has he suggested MotoGP homologate series-production engines with its own procedures. Ezpeleta merely expressed a desire to kill overpriced satellite bikes, the fuel-limited rules, and a handful of useless technologies. Completely uncontroversial unless you work at a factory, and you need to use the rules to keep other people away.
 
mylexicon said:
Do you know what it takes to ban prototype engines? Look at WSBK or any production racing series. First step: Adopt FIM homologation for production engines. Second step: Write an entirely new rulebook of allowable modifications. Third step: Police the new rulebook by hiring dozens of extra officials. Fourth step: Continually rewrite the FIM homologation papers for production engines as the manufacturers exploit any loophole they can find.



Full prototypes are not going anywhere, unless the people who build them decide to stop participating. Even if the MSMA leave, they've done such a good job of castigating former members that new companies will probably join to fill the void left by the MSMA.



I don't understand the prototype vs. production-derived-machines debate. It isn't real, and it makes the fans look uninformed. The time to rant against SuperSuperbikes was two years ago when Ezpeleta first started pushing CRT without any indication as to how it would work. Since then, he has allowed full prototypes under CRT, and he has not made a single public appeal to adopt FIM homologation for production engines nor has he suggested MotoGP homologate series-production engines with its own procedures. Ezpeleta merely expressed a desire to kill overpriced satellite bikes, the fuel-limited rules, and a handful of useless technologies. Completely uncontroversial unless you work at a factory, and you need to use the rules to keep other people away.
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I get it believe me. I just think that the fact that there will be no "factory" teams in the future will eventually kill the sport. None of the riders are going to buy into it unless they get some deal behind closed doors and back the crt's. I'm positive it will become glorified club racing with "prototype" lol, rules. Look, if they really wanted to cut costs, the last few years of rules would have never been allowed. Make more rules, teams have to spend money to abide by them, ie, the limited number of motors. The sport of "MOTOGP" needs to stay very open. Factories shouldn't get the shaft just because they have had all the experience and actually manufacture their bikes. So now what, a CRT team goes and builds everything that a factory does yet stays a CRT? They dont' source parts from other big manufactures but they come to build the entire bike by themselves. So isn't that a factory? A guy like Michael Czysz, he isn't a "factory" but he makes all his own stuff. SO he sorta is a factory but not really. Look at the late GREAAAAT John Brittan, what would you classify him as? Same as MC? Sure there can be exciting aspects of it. I just don't feel it will be legit. But, like I said, WSBK will win out in the end if EZY doesn't make sure he is a proper custodian of the spirit of the sport.
 
ROCKGOD01 said:
I get it believe me. I just think that the fact that there will be no "factory" teams in the future will eventually kill the sport. None of the riders are going to buy into it unless they get some deal behind closed doors and back the crt's. I'm positive it will become glorified club racing with "prototype" lol, rules. Look, if they really wanted to cut costs, the last few years of rules would have never been allowed. Make more rules, teams have to spend money to abide by them, ie, the limited number of motors. The sport of "MOTOGP" needs to stay very open. Factories shouldn't get the shaft just because they have had all the experience and actually manufacture their bikes. So now what, a CRT team goes and builds everything that a factory does yet stays a CRT? They dont' source parts from other big manufactures but they come to build the entire bike by themselves. So isn't that a factory? A guy like Michael Czysz, he isn't a "factory" but he makes all his own stuff. SO he sorta is a factory but not really. Look at the late GREAAAAT John Brittan, what would you classify him as? Same as MC? Sure there can be exciting aspects of it. I just don't feel it will be legit. But, like I said, WSBK will win out in the end if EZY doesn't make sure he is a proper custodian of the spirit of the sport.
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Factory does not mean having one and building a bike from scratch al a John Britten. Factory = .... loads more cash than anyone else, windtunnels, engine test cells and the access to thousands of top engineers within the parent company which designs and sells road bikes. Aprilia would be classed as a Factory, as would KTM. WCM or Czysz not.



Remember when the rules changes happened in WSBK around 2000 and all the factories pulled out in disgust. They came back rather quickly when they realised that control tyres did not destroy the series any more than the lack of the Factories presence did. They are now largely missing from WSBK once again. Time will tell as to how it all pans out, but I doubt the current manufacturers will quit MotoGP as it simply opens the door for the other minor OEMs such as the Aprilias, BMWs and KTMS of this world to take to the limelight in 2013 when we go to stock ECUs.
 
yamaka46 said:
Factory does not mean having one and building a bike from scratch al a John Britten. Factory = .... loads more cash than anyone else, windtunnels, engine test cells and the access to thousands of top engineers within the parent company which designs and sells road bikes. Aprilia would be classed as a Factory, as would KTM. WCM or Czysz not.



Remember when the rules changes happened in WSBK around 2000 and all the factories pulled out in disgust. They came back rather quickly when they realised that control tyres did not destroy the series any more than the lack of the Factories presence did. They are now largely missing from WSBK once again. Time will tell as to how it all pans out, but I doubt the current manufacturers will quit MotoGP as it simply opens the door for the other minor OEMs such as the Aprilias, BMWs and KTMS of this world to take to the limelight in 2013 when we go to stock ECUs.
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Yeah but this isn't just about control tires. This is about a total shift in the sport. Maybe it is just me and right now, but I am not excited for CRT's due to they just don't represent the true nature and spirit of MOTOGP. Maybe it will in the future at some point, but again, I am not sold on it. I wonder what the sponsors think when they partner up with factories now and what this potentially means for them moving forward. YEah we will wait and see, and I hope the sport finds a way to thrive, but just right now as it is I don't see it, I see SBK getting all the popular riders from GP if CRT is this new future and the factories get penalized for being the factory.
 
Personally speaking, if CRT puts more bikes on the grid it's cool wi me. I want to see a return to bigger grids and closer racing, ok, the CRT bikes are no gonnae bother the factories, but if we get better mid pack racing, then go for it. Also, with the stupid nae factory bikes for rookies rule, it could make for a nae pressure way for youngsters to come into GP and crash or a year, then, maybe, i they pick up the pace year 2, they will get onto a works bike. Riders need time to develop, and if you are not Spanish at the moment, you have a small window to prove yourself before it's off to WSBK. The factories want winners (apart from Honda who want a fragile dwarf who Puig thinks is capable of winning a motogp title) and CRT might be what Brits etc (who generally come good later in life due to the difference in racing structure) need tae get back at the pointy end.



It's far fae ideal, but motogp has been going up it's own arse for years, and if it puts things back on some kind o course, then dae it. The 4 stroke generation has been great, but the rule changes every 2 minutes has been ...... Something has to be done tae save the sinking ship
 
basspete said:
Personally speaking, if CRT puts more bikes on the grid it's cool wi me. I want to see a return to bigger grids and closer racing, ok, the CRT bikes are no gonnae bother the factories, but if we get better mid pack racing, then go for it. Also, with the stupid nae factory bikes for rookies rule, it could make for a nae pressure way for youngsters to come into GP and crash or a year, then, maybe, i they pick up the pace year 2, they will get onto a works bike. Riders need time to develop, and if you are not Spanish at the moment, you have a small window to prove yourself before it's off to WSBK. The factories want winners (apart from Honda who want a fragile dwarf who Puig thinks is capable of winning a motogp title) and CRT might be what Brits etc (who generally come good later in life due to the difference in racing structure) need tae get back at the pointy end.



It's far fae ideal, but motogp has been going up it's own arse for years, and if it puts things back on some kind o course, then dae it. The 4 stroke generation has been great, but the rule changes every 2 minutes has been ...... Something has to be done tae save the sinking ship
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