What illegal parts have Aprilia installed on their bike to help it make another 20-25hp?
CRT - Does anyone really understand the rules
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What illegal parts have Aprilia installed on their bike to help it make another 20-25hp?
I doubt very much that their bike is making another 20-25hp. The RSV4 engines being offered to the CRTs make 230hp, cost 80K euros plus 30K for maintenance to last the races. AFAIK WSBK engines make north of 220hp, so I suspect the cam geartrain is worth 2-5 hp. More headwork (cams, valves) would get a handful more horses.
I am intrigued to know where you got the figure of 20 to 25 bhp from.
Joined Feb 2007
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Tennessee
Maybe i wasnt clear. I asked if someone has attended a WSBK race lately, was GPs, race weekend presentation superior to WSBK. Was their at the track experience so much better at a GP event that they could overlook GP bikes being slower. From the couch, i agree that GP blows WSBK away.
Ive been to both & i can honestly say in terms of whats on offer, very little between them. When you get to the promotional aspect of them though GP know how to do this effectively, SBK dont.
Generally, there's about a third of the attendance at WSBK events that there are at MotoGP events, and so consequently, there are fewer extra activities going on. In Assen, for example, though the town is busy at night during WSBK, the city is turned over completely to bike fans (with lots of stuff going on everywhere) during MotoGP. A question of scale.
Attendance isn't critical. If you filled a track with 100,000 at $100 per, you'd come out with $10M dollars. After expenses, you could probably keep half. Assuming you'd be willing to pay $5M (b/c you get government sweetener), Dorna could earn $5M x 18 rounds = $90M. They can make that much money off of a single TV contract if they increase the presence of the manufacturers (not necessarily prototypes) and they increase viewership with close racing.
I'm not saying Dorna should gut the series and obsess about TV, but TV is what matters. Even in F1 where $25M sanctioning fees are the norm, 70% of the revenue comes from TV contracts and sponsorship contracts that result from media presence.
Joined Oct 2006
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Your Mom's House
Pov is only concerned with lap time. Thats why he stopped watching GP after they went from 990s to 800s until ALL the lap records were replaced with the new 800 formula, right Pov?
Joined Feb 2007
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Tennessee
What Lex and Krop say are undoubtedly true, but is not all of that based on the perception that GP is the pinnacle. What would happen to all of that ,if perception was smacked in the face by reality, if WSBK became the performance leader of the 2. Could there not be a shift in fan attendance, which i wholeheartedly disagree with Lex when he says attendance isnt critical. It isnt crtitical to the present TV contract, but if attendance shifted, it would be very critical in the next. More attendance at WSBK would lead to better TV contracts, which would lead to more money to the teams, which would mean the possibility of hiring the best riders and so on and so on. If they were not both owned by the same entity, i could see WSBK jumping on this opportunity with both feet to wrestle away the title, pinnacle of motorcyle road racing. But they are owned by the same entity, and i think that is giving Carmelo the balls to go the route he has chosen. I suspect CRT or WSBK rules will change quickly if in fact WSBK times are quicker.
Joined Feb 2007
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Tennessee
is that your way of saying you didnt know that the 800's had bested all of the track records of 990's, or that they started besting the 990's from the first race of 2007
Aprilia have said their WSBK engine makes between 210-215hp. Those horsepower figures have featured in everything from news articles, to TV broadcasts (James Whitham reminds viewers frequently that all of the bikes make 'round about' 210-215 bhp). It also in company media like this video
The CRT version produces 230hp. According to Aprilia, illegal parts make 230hp possible, but I know of no such parts. Something is being done to restrict horsepower in SBK. The AMA rev limit, the BSB rev limit, the homologated rev limit in the BSB Evo rulebook (they use FIM homologation procedures) all indicate that the power-reduction method of choice is revs. Makes sense b/c the bikes have widely varying bore/stroke measurements. If I have missed a backdoor air-restrictor rule or some other type of rule, then I'm wrong, but the evidence at this point seems to point overwhelmingly towards a rev limit.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
I detected little difference between Wsbk events & GP events at Laguna except attendance. But that may be because GP has a longer running series compared to GP. GP has the advantage. But given Wsbks rise in such a short time, its impressive.
Joined Mar 2005
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Woody Creek
If you'll recall winter testing 2002, times between WSBK and the infant 990s and deadwood 500s were insanely close. In fact, there was an article on 'Soup some years ago about Dean Adams offering Ben Bostrom $100 or something like that if he could set the lap record ahead of GP bikes at Catalunya or wherever they were testing. And for the record, I don't like plugging 'Soup.
I understand the CRT bikes are some two seconds down on WSBK at the moment, but my point is twofold. First, this isn't the first time performance has narrowed to less than a knife edge between the two series. Grand Prix won out a decade ago because they had the riders (in fact, you could argue the WSBK class of 2001/02 may have been the most popular and talented class in recent memory), they had the clout (which they still do in Dorna), and the bikes developed. Which brings me to my second point: the CRT times are only going to improve. How long did it take the 990s to go from being perilously close to WSBK times to being untouchable? I'm not saying that will happen with CRTs, they don't have the factories behind them. What I am saying is this is a formula in its absolute infancy. They will improve. Dramatically with the right rider, in my opinion.
I see your point, but I don't consider attendance critical b/c the local promoters can completely screw the pooch. They can raise prices to obscene levels and have terrible trackside atmosphere. I can't judge MotoGP, the sport, based upon the proficiency or incompetence of local yokels who promote races. Unless MotoGP appoint a single promoter (not a good idea in an international series), I can't really hold them accountable for the trackside affairs or the attendance. In some places like Qatar, they let people in for free during practice and quali (IIRC). At Mugello or Jerez, you probably have to save for an entire year to get tickets. Just a fact of life.
I don't see how WSBK is going to surpass CRT. The CRTs will have Bridgestone tires, more powerful engines, less weight, and the advantage of unlimited prototyping for the chassis. Based upon the discombobulation in the paddock, it might take a few years for CRT to achieve WSBK performance, but it is almost certain the CRTs will surpass WSBK in the near future. My concern is that everyone will be using the same engine. If Suter/BMW are the first CRT team in the standings, everyone can buy a Suter BMW. That is the inherent problem with production racing. If there are no factories and no performance balance, everyone ends up on the same machine. F1-style constructor rules will be close behind. Suddenly, IRTA will be replaced by the chassis building companies.
Corporate numbers are always ........: too high for proddie engines, complete fiction for racing engines. I think all of the MotoGP bikes are listed merely as "more than 200bhp" when they are closer to 240.
WSBK engines all make well north of 220 bhp, with the exception of the Ducati (which goes to show how important horsepower really is). Here's an example: http://www.bikesportnews.com/news-detail.cfm?newstitle=Bad-news-as-CRT-packages-still-four-seconds-off-the-pace-&newsid=6057 If David Miller says that a BSB Yamaha produces 223hp at the back wheel, I am prepared to believe him, knowing his contacts.
As for the illegal parts used by the Aprilia, apart from the cam gear train I would start with throttle bodies, airbox mods, exhaust mods (an extra 20dB allowed, IIRC). The CRT bikes will be allowed to breathe a lot more freely, the rules on WSBK bikes restrict the inlet side a lot - standard valves, standard throttle bodies. Those are severe handicaps.
Perceptions don't change overnight. Even during the heyday of WSBK in the '90s, when the WSBK bikes were lapping Donington faster than the 500s, the 500s were still regarded as the pinnacle. It takes a lot of time for the public perception of these things to shift, so if the factories leave MotoGP, taking Rossi, Lorenzo and Stoner with them, and the CRT bikes are consistently slower than WSBK machines for, say, 5 or 6 years, then ordinary fans may start to think that MotoGP is no longer the pinnacle. Until then, WSBK will remain a second-rate series, whether it deserves to be or not.
I believe it 100%. When you take a Superbike out of competition and run it at a local track, the horsepower increases. That phenomenon is due to homologation, imo. That's why Ezpeleta says production engines are legal b/c it's all about homologation. The horsepower controls prior to my alleged rev limit were air restrictors. It changed in 2004 after the WCM fiasco. Only when MotoGP hit rough times did Ezpeleta decide to push his luck with IMS. Ipollito's endorsement was helpful as well.
Good point about the throttle body though. I doubt it will give a serious power increase b/c the factories know they must race with stock, but that is an important component that cannot be modified.
Joined Oct 2006
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Your Mom's House
Pov doesnt remember because he refused to follow GP during that time. He wasnt going to waste his time watching slower bikes thats why hes not going to follow GP until ALL lap records at every venue are replaced by CRTs.
Btw Pov, when will u be leaving? I mean, so far in testing CRT lap times have been "....". Doesnt this winter testing count? Or will u leave us when the season starts? I hope i didnt post this too late, you might already be gone.
Povol is after intangibles, and I don't think you can hold that against him. I like the intangibles as well; however, if people spend some time thinking about the mechanics of avoiding horsepower restrictions, the reason for the status quo becomes clear.
The FIM, IRTA, and the manufacturers are all against excessive top speeds b/c they worry about circuit homologation, liability, and the other business considerations. If horsepower restrictions are going to be avoided, the bike need capacity somewhere between 650cc-750cc, which corresponds with power ratings between 220-240hp. Most fans wouldn't appreciate those displacement rules, and the riders have already said they dislike torque-less engines. MotoGP could theoretically allow 1000cc prototype, but they'd have to ditch Bridgestone and get Dunlop to supply a low grip tire to control corner entry/exit and reduce terminal velocity. I wouldn't mind, but MotoGP could well end up slower than WSBK if the Pirelli is the highest performance tire.
The options are a bit bleak. Fuel regulations that don't work. Smaller displacement which is difficult to market, especially when the riders don't want less displacement. Crappy tires (the KRJR solution) with tire smoking 300hp 1000cc engines which bore the manufacturers and scare the piss out of the rest of the GPC.
Imo, the series is to the point where fierce competition will be required to save it. Fuel capacity will have to go to 24L, and horsepower will have to be regulated. I think it would be best to use a black box to enforce a rev limit. Rev limits allow free cylinder count and bore/stroke. Production engines can also get relatively close to a rev limit like 16,000rpm. Krop's idea of unlimited capacity with 21L would be interesting as well, but I'm convinced it would spark a development war.
Also, don't forget Dorna recently hired Bridgestones former race director. I'm still convinced that they are trying to rekindle the tire war in both GP and WSBK. Possibly a single spec for both. Bridgepoint's acquisition of WSBK only makes me more optimistic about the prospect of tire wars.
The FIM, IRTA, and the manufacturers are all against excessive top speeds b/c they worry about circuit homologation, liability, and the other business considerations. If horsepower restrictions are going to be avoided, the bike need capacity somewhere between 650cc-750cc, which corresponds with power ratings between 220-240hp. Most fans wouldn't appreciate those displacement rules, and the riders have already said they dislike torque-less engines. MotoGP could theoretically allow 1000cc prototype, but they'd have to ditch Bridgestone and get Dunlop to supply a low grip tire to control corner entry/exit and reduce terminal velocity. I wouldn't mind, but MotoGP could well end up slower than WSBK if the Pirelli is the highest performance tire.
The options are a bit bleak. Fuel regulations that don't work. Smaller displacement which is difficult to market, especially when the riders don't want less displacement. Crappy tires (the KRJR solution) with tire smoking 300hp 1000cc engines which bore the manufacturers and scare the piss out of the rest of the GPC.
Imo, the series is to the point where fierce competition will be required to save it. Fuel capacity will have to go to 24L, and horsepower will have to be regulated. I think it would be best to use a black box to enforce a rev limit. Rev limits allow free cylinder count and bore/stroke. Production engines can also get relatively close to a rev limit like 16,000rpm. Krop's idea of unlimited capacity with 21L would be interesting as well, but I'm convinced it would spark a development war.
Also, don't forget Dorna recently hired Bridgestones former race director. I'm still convinced that they are trying to rekindle the tire war in both GP and WSBK. Possibly a single spec for both. Bridgepoint's acquisition of WSBK only makes me more optimistic about the prospect of tire wars.
Gear driven cams, they were banned by the FIM because the bikes didn't come that way from the factory. From the factory the bike comes with chain driven cams and as you know chains stretch and aren't reliable enough at high RPMs because of timing and valve float that can happen with more RPMs. With the gear driven cams they will ba able to make more power with higher revs and to do much more radical head work and cam profiles. The factory then tried to offer the parts as a kit to get them homogolinated but they were still banned. The engine actually comes machined to accept the gears so there is no modification needed to install. That's why I really want to see an Aprilia based CRT, plus it sounds like Aprilia is walking a very fine line with the amount of support they are wanting to give to the CRT bikes.
