CRT - Does anyone really understand the rules

povol · Nov 16, 2011

Jumkie said:
Pov doesnt remember because he refused to follow GP during that time. He wasnt going to waste his time watching slower bikes thats why hes not going to follow GP until ALL lap records at every venue are replaced by CRTs.

Btw Pov, when will u be leaving? I mean, so far in testing CRT lap times have been "....". Doesnt this winter testing count? Or will u leave us when the season starts? I hope i didnt post this too late, you might already be gone.

Not yet, 2012 is still allowing for proper Gp bikes. Im guessing 2013 if they go 100% CRT. We'll see. Thanks for your concern though

hawkdriver · Nov 16, 2011

I just wanted to give you guys an update on the Aprilia CRT testing going in in Valencia. I'm getting this information from Dennis Noyes twitter and a couple of guys who speak spanish.

He said Hoffmann went two seconds faster with the Parrelli tires than he did with the BS tires, they're having a problem getting heat into the tires but Hoffmann is expecting to match his BS times with the Pirelli lap times tomorrow.

Jumkie · Nov 16, 2011

povol said:
Not yet, 2012 is still allowing for proper Gp bikes. Im guessing 2013 if they go 100% CRT. We'll see. Thanks for your concern though

Ur welcome. Just want to plan ahead in case i dont have somebody to share a tequila shot with in the event i go to Indy.

Proper? Can u get any more vague? Ok, ur backpedalling continues? Is "lap time" no longer the guage? Have u moved the bar again? So what makes the remaining GP bikes "proper" and the CRT bikes "improper"?

ROCKGOD01 · Nov 16, 2011

What's to say that WSBK doesn't look at the state of GP and say, Hey we can best these bikes now in many aspects? Factories that don't have to spend a dime in a lesser GP now will focus efforts as well as their sponsors in WSBK. They actually sell those bikes as well so that makes even more sence. Who cares about some faked, hodge podge wanna be prototype, when the wsbk offers a production based prototype of sorts already? Clearly they are not exactly what is on the street in terms of performance. But the superbike series has way better racing these days anyway than GP. The knee Jerk reation statement of Ezmarelda just shows how he is reeling from thier previous rule changes that were supposed to be the best thing for the sport. The current state of motogp is really going to flourish if they take the proper stance on the heritage of the sport and build it again. If they keep trying to bandaid it with CRT's that clearly are a joke then WSBK will have more than enough to surpass GP for whatever reason it doesn't today.

dwoodhouse · Nov 16, 2011

Kropotkin said:
What makes MotoGP the pinnacle? Is it just a matter of lap times?

Is F1 the pinnacle of car racing or Indycars?

birdman · Nov 16, 2011

povol said:
is that your way of saying you didnt know that the 800's had bested all of the track records of 990's, or that they started besting the 990's from the first race of 2007

Qatar 2006: 990cc,22L fuel, Pole 1'56.683, Fastest lap 1'57.305.

Qatar 2007: 800cc, 21L fuel, Pole 1'55.002, Fastest lap 1'56.528.

Valencia testing.

CRT 1000cc 24 Litres fuel, best time 1'35.911sec.

Factory 800cc, 21 litres fuel, worst time 1'34.142sec.

Go Pov!! You are the man (not a mispell, i meant man on purpose, not deer haha). Lap time is everything.

FTE217 · Nov 16, 2011

birdman said:
Qatar 2006: 990cc,22L fuel, Pole 1'56.683, Fastest lap 1'57.305.

Qatar 2007: 800cc, 21L fuel, Pole 1'55.002, Fastest lap 1'56.528.

Valencia testing.

CRT 1000cc 24 Litres fuel, best time 1'35.911sec.

Factory 800cc, 21 litres fuel, worst time 1'34.142sec.

Go Pov!! You are the man (not a mispell, i meant man on purpose, not deer haha). Lap time is everything.

So the CRT's are near enough the std gap the Ducs were achieving this season behind the Hondas/Yamas.

birdman · Nov 16, 2011

FTE217 said:
So the CRT's are near enough the std gap the Ducs were achieving this season behind the Hondas/Yamas.

Valencia 800cc Honda pole 1'31.8 is the time for duc to match, not 1'34.1??

FTE217 · Nov 16, 2011

birdman my bad - I missed you stating 800's "worst time" - but I also should have said in general most of the season the Ducs were 1.5 or so averaging behind the faster hondas/yamas.....

birdman · Nov 16, 2011

FTE217 said:
birdman my bad - I missed you stating 800's "worst time" - but I also should have said in general most of the season the Ducs were 1.5 or so averaging behind the faster hondas/yamas.....

True. And the crt time is actually not that bad. A repsol honda was only one place higher (test rider) Just don't tell jumkie i said that because pov has won the bet. Junkie (not a spelling error) should act like a man and man up, pay up.

J4rn0 · Nov 17, 2011

The real model for the future is the new Moto3: they are full prototypes, but the traditional manufacturers are not the only or main players. The 250cc cylinder of a Moto3 could become the base for a twin-cylinder 500cc Moto2 and a 4-cylinder 1000cc Moto1, just as in the old 2-stroke days a 125cc cylinder could be used as a base unit to build 250 and 500cc engines. Small, focused technological firms can develop competitive prototype engines, -- the only thing they need is money, i.e. sponsors.

A Red Bull MotoGP contender may not be so far on the horizon after all.

cliche guevara · Nov 17, 2011

1. dustbin fairings are illegal and thats a good thing considering the amount of fieces riders would leave on the track everytime a slight wind blows

2. forcing a rev limit onto different kind of engines is stupid. if the wsbk engines would be limited to say 14000 rpm the honda would be the fastest bike as its narrow bore would give siginificant torque advantages over say the bmw /kawa ,bikes that couldn't make the best of their short stroke,high rpm concept

3. comparing f1 to indycars is stupid.even if they did share a track a f1 car would eat the indycar

edit : 4. no need for supercharges and turbos on a motorcycle for me. anything above 600cc has loads of torque and is difficult enough to ride anyways.

Kropotkin · Nov 17, 2011

povol said:
Not yet, 2012 is still allowing for proper Gp bikes. Im guessing 2013 if they go 100% CRT. We'll see. Thanks for your concern though

In 2013, they will not be going 100% CRT. They will merely modify the rules to enforce a rev limit and a single ECU with limited abilities. Factories will be free to enter, but Dorna will not subsidize any team leasing satellite bikes from a factory. If Poncharal can find the 5+ million he needs for 2 Yamaha M1s for racing from his own fundraising efforts, then he is free to race with satellite M1s. If he can't, and wants to suck at Dorna's teat, then he will have to source (build, actually, they are starting the process already) CRT bikes. The whole point is to have a single set of uniform rules for 2013 that level the playing field.

Kropotkin · Nov 17, 2011

woody996 said:
Is F1 the pinnacle of car racing or Indycars?

I hate cars, so I really don't care. People who know tell me that endurance racing may well be the pinnacle of car technology, but I have neither the interest nor the knowledge to back this up.

DRILL · Nov 17, 2011

Kropotkin said:
I don't understand what you mean by "match 800 formula machines". Match them in what way?

The doom and gloom is bollocks. Human beings are incredibly conservative and resistant to change. Anything new is automatically regarded as being A Bad Thing. The CRT bikes will be fine, in 2013 we will have a single set of rules, and Honda and Yamaha will stick around and clean up, despite being a second slower than 2012, the racing will be exciting, and by 2015, we'll all be wondering what all the fuss was about.

You are absolutely bang on Krop,I rememeber the scepitcism of the 800cc class here,although not to my taste ,it gave a lot of people the fix they wanted.Typical human nature as you say.Personally I cant wait for 2012 and the odd CRT shaking up the big boys.........it will happen sooner or later with a good rider.

Keshav · Nov 17, 2011

Won't speculate yet how CRTs will affect racing next year - but for sure, they will generate an abundance of speculation and arguments on racing forums. Already off to a big start.

Jumkie · Nov 17, 2011

Keshav said:
Won't speculate yet how CRTs will affect racing next year - but for sure, they will generate an abundance of speculation and arguments on racing forums. Already off to a big start.

Get off the fence Kesh.

Cast your lot with the CRT dooms dayers, Pov, Birdman, etal OR come into the light with me. Otherwise, you won't have the pleasure of telling them 'I told you so' and watch them try to squirm out of their previous position.

mylexicon · Nov 17, 2011

Jumkie said:
Get off the fence Kesh.

Cast your lot with the CRT dooms dayers, Pov, Birdman, etal OR come into the light with me. Otherwise, you won't have the pleasure of telling them 'I told you so' and watch them try to squirm out of their previous position.

Jum, as nice as it will be to have mechanical development and competition in MotoGP, CRT is hardly "the light". Suppose the Suter/BMW dominates next year. What do you suppose everyone will be running?

Like I said before, the pitfall of production racing without equality is that everyone migrates to the same piece of equipment. Unless the governing body pay everyone to run different equipment, F1-style, the grid will become one make. If Suter have a superior engine development package, monopoly pricing power causes severe problems like it did in 250s. For this reason, production racing is equalized while prototype racing allows proprietary technology to make sales impossible.

Racing is mercantile which means imperial dominance brings misery for everyone involved. Anti-monopoly and anti-trust regulations must be used to democratize the sport if racing is ever going to be stable in the long run. The regs don't have to be specifically anti-monopoly or anti-trust, but they must have that effect. Allowing production equipment is a big step in the right direction, but CRT has many hurdles to clear in the future. I certainly don't think CRT (the system) can carry the show on its own, not with the current regulations anyway.

hawkdriver · Nov 17, 2011

mylexicon said:
Jum, as nice as it will be to have mechanical development and competition in MotoGP, CRT is hardly "the light". Suppose the Suter/BMW dominates next year. What do you suppose everyone will be running?

Like I said before, the pitfall of production racing without equality is that everyone migrates to the same piece of equipment. Unless the governing body pay everyone to run different equipment, F1-style, the grid will become one make. If Suter have a superior engine development package, monopoly pricing power causes severe problems like it did in 250s. For this reason, production racing is equalized while prototype racing allows proprietary technology to make sales impossible.

Racing is mercantile which means imperial dominance brings misery for everyone involved. Anti-monopoly and anti-trust regulations must be used to democratize the sport if racing is ever going to be stable in the long run. The regs don't have to be specifically anti-monopoly or anti-trust, but they must have that effect. Allowing production equipment is a big step in the right direction, but CRT has many hurdles to clear in the future. I certainly don't think CRT (the system) can carry the show on its own, not with the current regulations anyway.

I think we're gonna see a little bit of a war going on with the CRT bikes actually. Honda has forced Gresini to run a CBR CRT. The factories will still want to be well represented by the CRT bikes. With the engines coming off of their street going bikes, it's gonna be a big deal when a CRT team beats a factory satellite bike. I would wager that what these CRT bikes do is going to be more important to bike sales and company image than what the prototype bikes that have little in common with what we are sold. Could you imagine what people will say when a BMW/Aprilia CRT take out a satellite prototype bike.

povol · Nov 17, 2011

Kropotkin said:
In 2013, they will not be going 100% CRT. They will merely modify the rules to enforce a rev limit and a single ECU with limited abilities. Factories will be free to enter, but Dorna will not subsidize any team leasing satellite bikes from a factory. If Poncharal can find the 5+ million he needs for 2 Yamaha M1s for racing from his own fundraising efforts, then he is free to race with satellite M1s. If he can't, and wants to suck at Dorna's teat, then he will have to source (build, actually, they are starting the process already) CRT bikes. The whole point is to have a single set of uniform rules for 2013 that level the playing field.

At that point, will everyone be on the same fuel and engine allotment

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CRT - Does anyone really understand the rules

povol

hawkdriver

Jumkie

ROCKGOD01

dwoodhouse

birdman

FTE217

birdman

FTE217

birdman

J4rn0

cliche guevara

Kropotkin

Kropotkin

DRILL

Keshav

Jumkie

mylexicon

hawkdriver

povol

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