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Cheating

Jumkie said:
Ah yes, easier said than done, right. Hahaha, I've read you make similar defense to a few other people here. And its a good retort, as I'm sure you feel under appreciated at the difficulty of your toils. To answer your question, my day job for one and married with kids, my lack of access, proximity, established relationships in the MotoGP. That hasn't stopped me from asking questions of principals of the sport when I'm next to them, a few times even got some surprisingly candid and unguarded answers.



What I find interesting Krops, is that you seem well aware of the propensity of man's nature, yet you seem to express it doesn't apply to the competitions of MotoGP. You posted the a very revealing interview of businessmen who run sports, and the fascinating thing for me was your inability to realize they were tell us they create a shame by design because thats what people buy. Then when people like me point out the propensity of men to skew the authenticity of the competition, you call .........
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1. You lazy .......



2. All professional sports are soap opera. The beauty of sports is they are inherently unpredictable. Very little plot manipulation required to keep people watching. Occam's razor suggests that much of the manipulation you allege is simply unnecessary. Feel free to believe whatever you like, though.
 
birdman said:
I see no reason to dismiss Smith's claims out of hand. Who knows what he's overheard in the paddock. Put it this way, at this point who would I trust more? Smith, who has everything to loose by saying this, or Ezy, the guy in charge of the 'show'?
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I haven't followed Bradley Smith very closely, nor Marquez and others in Moto2 for that matter, in the sense that I seek and read everything written on the MotoGP riders. But I find it interesting to summarily dismiss Bradley as a liar and declare Marquez (or his team) as telling the truth. Here Smith is being called a ....... liar, period. Seems to me either would have equal motive for their particular claims, and it seems then each of our propensities to believe one or the other as equally valid. Except of course, when I saw them on the track, one guy was pulling Gs on the rest, so there is that pesky visual thing I see on the screen. That, and the vision problems league officials had in not just one, two, three, but several egregious incidents to which they turned a blind eye. So, yeah, when a guy says, hey, there was "cheating in Moto2", and "not just Marquez" I'm left to weigh this person's possible motives, integrity (of which I know little to nothing) and....what I saw on the track (all adding up to my confirmation bias, I guess).
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No doubt Smith believes what he says is true. Just as the Pope believes he is God's representative on Earth.
 
Jumkie said:
That, and the vision problems league officials had in not just one, two, three, but several egregious incidents to which they turned a blind eye. So, yeah, when a guy says, hey, there was "cheating in Moto2", and "not just Marquez" I'm left to weigh this person's possible motives, integrity (of which I know little to nothing) and....what I saw on the track (all adding up to my confirmation bias, I guess).
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Exactly what I was thinking. If they can turn a blind eye when he actually runs into and nearly roadkills someone which we can all plainly see, how hard can it be for these same 'officials' to turn a blind eye to the odd bike irregularity they may discover? Yeah sure he opens the throttle earlier, thats the more logical explanation is it? 30 of the best riders in the world and one can ride through them from last to first with 5 laps to spare like they are amateurs. The explanation put forth is 'because he's that special'. And Smith is a lier. Ok.



I dont assume Smith is correct by the way, just dont dismiss him as lying. I fail to see what he has to gain by this though. He's got the next best thing to a factory bike on the grid, so he doesnt have to try and prove anything in particular. Alternatively a false cheating claim could get him blacklisted like Biaggi. I think both riders and journos know much more than they are willing to admitt to.
 
Kropotkin said:
No doubt Smith believes what he says is true. Just as the Pope believes he is God's representative on Earth.
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And Marquez is Jesus if we are to believe all the hype. Ive seen him ride and do think he has something special, just not quite as special as people make out. He could be getting a bit of a 'helping hand from above'. There was another God like rider that quickly fell back to earth once his wings were clipped, ironically by the red devil of bikes.



Smith sounds a bit more of a Galileo discussing bike science rather than supernatural abilities.
 
Jumkie said:
Well, if we had any real investigative journalism in GP, maybe we would get a few answers. But it seems our sport journalists are first inclined to believe the league officials and well funded teams. Ignoring the visual disparity of course. Then when people blow the whistle, they are summarily disregarded as excuse makers.
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You can see the gap, why not fill it.
 
Kropotkin said:
No doubt Smith believes what he says is true. Just as the Pope believes he is God's representative on Earth.
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(Now THAT'S a LAZY post!
<
)



So... follow up and ask the dude what he meant. I would think that as journalist and inquisitive fellow, this would be your first impulse. If nothing else, it's kind of your, you know, JOB - and assumed purpose in life. You've put so much effort into MotoMatters, and have generally maintained a very high level of integrity, yet (bizarrely IMO) you dismiss this option out of hand. I honestly don't get it. Maybe you're right when you say we're all a bunch of crazy, paranoid lunatics, but I have to agree with Jum that your motives and attitude toward this topic don't seem quite right. (You and the others who, without any obvious evidence one way or the other, instantly jumped up to condemn Smith as 'Just another sore loser!')



(The pope is a nothing more than a cynical, manipulative #%^@#%$ politician who has managed to play The Game better than the others. I rather doubt he truly believes the BS he and all the other Cathy-Lick .......s spew. That much power invariably attracts the worst sort of scum.)
 
birdman said:
Interesting you bring up cycling as a defense of not cheating. I think the massive cover up involving officials and drug testers in cycling is exactly the evidence I would use to say there possibly is cheating. How many years did it last before we finally got 'proof' that the Tour de France was a farce. How do you think the first whistle blower in cycling was treated? Threatened and told to STFU until they can show some 'proof'.



I see no reason to dismiss Smith's claims out of hand. Who knows what he's overheard in the paddock. Put it this way, at this point who would I trust more? Smith, who has everything to loose by saying this, or Ezy, the guy in charge of the 'show'?
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A couple of things. I haven't said that there is no cheating nor have I used Lance Armstrong as a defence for cheating. Cycling was dirty and still is.



My point focused on the willingness for people to damage, taint, tarnish the reputations of others without providing the basis for that. If one is saying things which are damaging to another, the onus is on them to support their claim before the accused should have to defend it. This is a basic premise of decency. Just look at how many PE teachers have had their careers trashed by pissed off students making accusations about who's looking in the change rooms.



I thing it was a poor interview as the interviewer should have asked what Bradley meant by his reference to cheating.





He may be 100% correct. He comes off looking as though he is making excuses the way he has done it.
 
I strongly agree that marquez has been cut slack/shown favouritism in regard to out and out dangerous riding.



I don't see any evidence that there has ever been institutionalised cheating of the tech regs in gp bike racing though, which everyone knew was occurring in cycling, with or without lance armstrong's involvement.



I also recall that ducati were widely accused of cheating in 2007, carrying an extra litre of fuel etc, it seems with no basis. And presumably there can be no explanation except cheating for stoner being a second a lap faster than the field including his team-mate at the recent PI race.
 
michaelm said:
I strongly agree that marquez has been cut slack/shown favouritism in regard to out and out dangerous riding.



I don't see any evidence that there has ever been institutionalised cheating of the tech regs in gp bike racing though, which everyone knew was occurring in cycling, with or without lance armstrong's involvement.



I also recall that ducati were widely accused of cheating in 2007, carrying an extra litre of fuel etc, it seems with no basis. And presumably there can be no explanation except cheating for stoner being a second a lap faster than the field including his team-mate at the recent PI race.
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The thing is Mick. In 2007 we could see the Ducati had a straight line speed advantage. It was obvious & everyone except the most avid fan boy would accept that. The difference to that scenario & the Moto2 one, is that we see something similar but people refuse to accept what their eyes see this time. The other difference is the bikes are all supposed to be Honda based 600cc engines with no real difference to one another in straight line speed. But we have seen that it isn't the case.
 
Geonerd said:
(Now THAT'S a LAZY post!
<
)



So... follow up and ask the dude what he meant. I would think that as journalist and inquisitive fellow, this would be your first impulse. If nothing else, it's kind of your, you know, JOB - and assumed purpose in life. You've put so much effort into MotoMatters, and have generally maintained a very high level of integrity, yet (bizarrely IMO) you dismiss this option out of hand. I honestly don't get it. Maybe you're right when you say we're all a bunch of crazy, paranoid lunatics, but I have to agree with Jum that your motives and attitude toward this topic don't seem quite right. (You and the others who, without any obvious evidence one way or the other, instantly jumped up to condemn Smith as 'Just another sore loser!')



[font=georgia,serif]You mean like categorically stating that the Suter frame is crap in support of Marquez's (undoubted, mind) riding skills, while stating how good at set-up and rich MM's team is (simultaneously dismissing any possibility of engine shennanigans). Of course, MM's Suter chassis is rubbish. And identical all the others.[/font]





(The pope is a nothing more than a cynical, manipulative #%^@#%$ politician who has managed to play The Game better than the others. I rather doubt he truly believes the BS he and all the other Cathy-Lick .......s spew. That much power invariably attracts the worst sort of scum.)



[font=georgia,serif]Forget his cynicism and manipulation. The .... wears read ....... Pradas. Enough said.[/font]
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Frizzle said:
The thing is Mick. In 2007 we could see the Ducati had a straight line speed advantage. It was obvious & everyone except the most avid fan boy would accept that. The difference to that scenario & the Moto2 one, is that we see something similar but people refuse to accept what their eyes see this time. The other difference is the bikes are all supposed to be Honda based 600cc engines with no real difference to one another in straight line speed. But we have seen that it isn't the case.
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I don't watch much moto2, WSS is my go for 600cc racing. My point was that while the 2007 ducati was faster in a straight line (which marquez's bike may well also have been), most markedly at one early season track where yamaha didn't have appropriate gearing, it wasn't by cheating.



I extremely doubt that marquez's team had illegal software or engine modifications. Better funded teams almost invariably seem to be able to eke out an advantage in spec series, cf nascar. I can see it as possible that marquez's team were getting the best of the stock honda engines, in the same sense that the randomly allocated pirelli tyres in wsbk were reputedly not all equal, or of the same vintage at least.
 
Jumkie said:
What I find interesting Krops, is that you seem well aware of the propensity of man's nature, yet you seem to express it doesn't apply to the competitions of MotoGP. You posted the a very revealing interview of businessmen who run sports, and the fascinating thing for me was your inability to realize they were telling us they create a sham by design because thats what people buy. Then when people like me point out the propensity of men to skew the authenticity of the competition, you call .........
Click to expand...



Krop has got a very good interview on MM about exactly this subject... perhaps you should mosie on over and have a look?



http://motomatters.com/interview/2012/05/14/mike_webb_on_cheating_in_moto2_if_anyone.html
 
Geonerd said:
(Now THAT'S a LAZY post!
<
)



So... follow up and ask the dude what he meant. I would think that as journalist and inquisitive fellow, this would be your first impulse. If nothing else, it's kind of your, you know, JOB - and assumed purpose in life. You've put so much effort into MotoMatters, and have generally maintained a very high level of integrity, yet (bizarrely IMO) you dismiss this option out of hand. I honestly don't get it. Maybe you're right when you say we're all a bunch of crazy, paranoid lunatics, but I have to agree with Jum that your motives and attitude toward this topic don't seem quite right. (You and the others who, without any obvious evidence one way or the other, instantly jumped up to condemn Smith as 'Just another sore loser!')



(The pope is a nothing more than a cynical, manipulative #%^@#%$ politician who has managed to play The Game better than the others. I rather doubt he truly believes the BS he and all the other Cathy-Lick .......s spew. That much power invariably attracts the worst sort of scum.)
Click to expand...



I spent many hours investigating this and spoken to engineers, team managers, and officials. People have promised to show me proof, but never have. The most credible claim I have heard is that the bike is a little over the noise limit. Even then, I have seen no proof.



Now, due to the surprising and frankly rather disappointing fact that there only 24 hours in a day, and spending, say, 5 of them sleeping might be nice, I have to prioritize my activities. The research I have done so far is at a dead end. I'm sure if I dedicated myself to researching cheating in Moto2, I could turn up a few irregularities and minor infractions. What I have found so far leads me to believe that any cheating that is going on is not having any material effect on the results. So I am not prepared to waste any more time on this until new facts force me to change my mind. Riders bitching about cheating is not 'new facts' I have been listening to that all year.



If my decision means you believe I am nothing more than a shill for Dorna, fine. I would point out to you that I was the first person to bother to investigate this issue. I clearly can't convince anyone that my belief is based on the evidence I have seen so far, so I shall stop bothering to try. From now on, it's snide comments only.
 

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