Catlunya Race Talk - Spoiler

I'm amazed how Stoner hasn't binned it yet, based on his rookie season on the Honda, and am curious to know what made Ducati go after him for their factory team.

Bridgestone have done a great job this year, especially as it's the first year of tyre development on the 800s.

Well he has binned it in practice hasn't he? but not when it counts, all credit to him for that.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (l13eaw @ Jun 12 2007, 12:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'> yes Tom the more I think about it the more excited I am, Roll on 2008 Keep that one until after Valenia liz!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TP70 @ Jun 12 2007, 01:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Let me start by declaring I am a Stoner fan.

Are the Rossi fans serious in their comments that Stoner only wins because he is on the best or fastest bike? This theory reveals some flaws that will reflect badly on Rossi's past performances.

1) Does this mean Rossi can only win on the best bike? If he is truely the best he doesn't need the best bike and should still win as many many people in the past have said that the bike is 20% of the equation the rider is 80%.

2) If we go back to the first couple of seasons of 990cc MotoGP especially the first when most of the field were still on 500cc 2 strokes for at least part of the season. Does this mean that these championships won by Rossi were actually won by the Honda and therefore Rossi should only claim 5 World Championships?

3) Up until this year Michelin were the best tyre by far so does this mean that Michelin riders only won championships because of their tyres and not because of their skills? Also it is widely excepted that previous seasons Michelin has handed out tyres of different quality to different riders. I am sure Rossi has always received the best that Michelin has on offer so does this devalue his championships?

4) The likes of Biaggi and Gibernea and their fans constantly whinged about their equipment in comparison to Rossi's. Does your whinging now give weight to their claims and therefore devalue the championships Rossi won against these riders?

I am sure I could go on and on about the equipment Rossi has won championships on in comparison to what his competitors have had at the same time. I know that people are now going to say - what about Rossi's first year on Yamaha? Well IMO that was his best championship by far and proved him to be a great rider. This however doesn't let off the fact that Rossi always has the best equipment each manufacturer he is associated with has on offer.

If you are going to devalue Stoners performance by saying that it is an equipment advantage then you must except the same for Rossi in the past which would make Rossi less of a champion than he is.

So I suggest Rossi fans that display an unrealistic bias should pull their heads in and maybe say that Rossi greatness will be defined by his ability to win despite any equipment short falls he may or may not have. And in the mean time give Casey Stoner the kudos he so rightly deserves for the pure riding performance he has displayed in every race so far this season.
Nice post!!!! Welcome to the forum!!!

I think you do make some good points. The thing is, there will always be people who will say it's not their rider's fault, and they will say the opponent won because of better equipment.

Rossi won his share of titles because he's THAT good AND bcause he had the equipment. Obviously you can't win a title if you don't have the right equipment, that's pretty clear, it's motorsport after all.

I'm a Rossi fan, but that for sure doesn't make me blind. He's doing a very good job this season, eventhough he's not leading, he's performing well imo. Casey is doing a fantastic job as well. I don't think many people expected him to ride this well this season. It was obvious to see the guy was talented, we could see that last season, BUT last year he made too many mistakes. This season we're seeing an improved Stoner, someone who doesn't make mistakes and someone who isn't afraid to battle (with Rossi!!!). I have to say Casey is doing a great job so far, and that's really good, it makes things more interesting, we wouldn't wanna see Rossi dominate, right???
At least I don't, I rather see a real fight. Something we missed last season btw!!!!! I think this season will only get better and better, may the best man win!!!!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TP70 @ Jun 12 2007, 12:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>2) If we go back to the first couple of seasons of 990cc MotoGP especially the first when most of the field were still on 500cc 2 strokes for at least part of the season. Does this mean that these championships won by Rossi were actually won by the Honda and therefore Rossi should only claim 5 World Championships?


Welcome TP70 first of all, stick around

With regard to the quote above.......Honda would say so if you believe Rossi's book, that's why he left according to him:lol:

PS: I'm not a Rossi fan as such but he does have outstanding ability, charisma etc which helps.

Stoner like I said in a previous post, gets more attractive by the day

XX Liz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TP70 @ Jun 12 2007, 12:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1) Does this mean Rossi can only win on the best bike? If he is truely the best he doesn't need the best bike and should still win as many many people in the past have said that the bike is 20% of the equation the rider is 80%.
welcome to the forum mate.

well people did say that about rossi when he was winning on the honda and it was the best bike, it was the best bike because he developed it.
rossi then went on to win with the yam which was a crap bike (according to biaggi).

i believe stoner won catalunya though skill and cool headedness, his bike was faster through the speed traps by quite a margine but he handled it well and rossis bike was faster out of the turns so i think it was a fair race,
but i believe the top speed was an advantage at losal and china,sorry but i have to believe what my eyes saw.

People who aren't Rossi fans have to understand the fact that Stoner WASN'T racing on a Ducati last year. Stoner WASN'T doing well last year, so of course people are going to say that it's down to his bike for winning. If it wasn't then why of a sudden is he so quick this year and wasn't last year? Why didn't he always win last year like he has this year?
Of course Casey winning has something to do with his bike because if he was so incredible like Stoner fans are making him out to be, then why wasn't he always on the podium with the LCR. He's the same person as he was last year and his bike is keeping him on the podium. Face the facts, they all owe it down to their bike. Sure, they have talent, but they need the bike to go fast to win against other racers. It's a simple fact

Ooo Hayden's turned a corner - fastest race tyre lap of weekend today by Hayden

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Louise @ Jun 12 2007, 05:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>People who aren't Rossi fans have to understand the fact that Stoner WASN'T racing on a Ducati last year. Stoner WASN'T doing well last year, so of course people are going to say that it's down to his bike for winning. If it wasn't then why of a sudden is he so quick this year and wasn't last year? Why didn't he always win last year like he has this year?
Of course Casey winning has something to do with his bike because if he was so incredible like Stoner fans are making him out to be, then why wasn't he always on the podium with the LCR. He's the same person as he was last year and his bike is keeping him on the podium. Face the facts, they all owe it down to their bike. Sure, they have talent, but they need the bike to go fast to win against other racers. It's a simple fact

I don't think that 7th in the championship was that bad for first time out on not even a factory Honda. But in that case Louise why isn't Loris kicking ... too? And why isn't Edwards kicking ..., and why isn't Hayden kicking ...?

Now Rog said that in china the Duke was visibily incredibly fast down the straight, it was, but this weekend, yeah sure there was still an advantage but Rossi was able to slipstream him (or was it Pedrosa I can't remember probably both lol) so the bikes are getting closer so therefore Casey will have to work harder to stay on top. Those three at the top were there by skill, no-one else could keep up that pace for the whole race distance. Lets face it, it is Stoner's talent that is keeping him on the track under immense pressure from 7 time WC Rossi, you can't belittle him for that. And I stand by what I said before that the top three riders are probably the most flexible riders in GP this year, though Hopkins is also another one on the list, well done on a suzuki too. I would also add that those three riders have also managed to set their bikes up perfectly where their team-mates haven't managed it, its all about the whole package and tyres etc and Stoner deserves credit for that, but so does Rossi and Pedders.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Franco Fangio @ Jun 12 2007, 03:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Obviously you can't win a title if you don't have the right equipment, that's pretty clear, it's motorsport after all.

But it is the responsibility of the rider and his team to develop a good bike and get the maximum performance from it. Rossi developed the v5 honda and worked perfectly with it, i also think he owes a lot of his Yamaha success to the fantastic relationship he has with Jerry Burgess and their methods of bike setup and development. Now Casey has this relationship with a great team, and thats often overlooked.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (l13eaw @ Jun 12 2007, 06:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I don't think that 7th in the championship was that bad for first time out on not even a factory Honda. But in that case Louise why isn't Loris kicking ... too? And why isn't Edwards kicking ..., and why isn't Hayden kicking ...?

Well, obviously, like I said, they have to have talent, but they need the bikes you give them power.
Stoner was crashing all of the time last year, but when was the last crash he had from this season? This is exactly my point. Pedrosa did well on his first year and even then he was second best to Hayden ( ) , well from Honda anyway.
Also, like I already mentioned, Loris has a family to look out for now and for Colin, he is obviously second best to Valentino, so won't get all the same parts as him.
Hayden, like I've always known, had a very lucky year last year. (Oh God, now I'm going to get 1 million posts from Hayden fans slating what I'm saying). Pedrosa's doing well because he's better than Hayden. Daniel Pedrosa is the 3 times World Champion I'll have you know And Hayden's won 1 championship. Valentino has won more championships than Nicky's won races..

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Louise @ Jun 12 2007, 07:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Hayden, like I've always known, had a very lucky year last year. (Oh God, now I'm going to get 1 million posts from Hayden fans slating what I'm saying).
nah, you will be ok lou. there aint many hayden fans left now, there all stoner fans now.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jun 12 2007, 08:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>nah, you will be ok lou. there aint many hayden fans left now, there all stoner fans now.

I am still here, however i don't have the energy for people who think you can win a motogp world championship with just luck, get real.

Just a couple of points I'd like to make,

Certain people need to give credit where credits due. People claiming that Casey has to much of an advantage in the straights need to remember a few things.

Firstly, It wasn't Stoner who entered MotoGP and had the best engineers of all time tuning his machine. It wasn't Stoner who had full factory support on a satelite machine and It wasn't Stoner who's rivals were mostly on customer bikes.

People seem to not notice that tracks contain more corners than straights and people seem to forget that the Ducati is probably the stiffest bike on the grid. Its clearly obvious that Ducati has a high speed advantage but whos faults that? Its not their fault the Yamaha's always the 5th or 4th fastest bike in the speed traps.

Also, wasn't the Ducati only a few Mph faster than the Yamaha according to the speed traps? to me that doesn't count as a speed advantage. IMO casey overtook Rossi on the remaining laps because he had the advantage of the slipstream aswell as a few Mph on Rossi.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jun 12 2007, 08:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I am still here, however i don't have the energy for people who think you can win a motogp world championship with just luck, get real.

Okay then.. where was Nicky Hayden in 2005? More to the point, where the hell is Nicky Hayden NOW?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Electric Mofo @ Jun 12 2007, 09:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Just a couple of points I'd like to make,

Certain people need to give credit where credits due. People claiming that Casey has to much of an advantage in the straights need to remember a few things.

Firstly, It wasn't Stoner who entered MotoGP and had the best engineers of all time tuning his machine. It wasn't Stoner who had full factory support on a satelite machine and It wasn't Stoner who's rivals were mostly on customer bikes.

People seem to not notice that tracks contain more corners than straights and people seem to forget that the Ducati is probably the stiffest bike on the grid. Its clearly obvious that Ducati has a high speed advantage but whos faults that? Its not their fault the Yamaha's always the 5th or 4th fastest bike in the speed traps.

Also, wasn't the Ducati only a few Mph faster than the Yamaha according to the speed traps? to me that doesn't count as a speed advantage. IMO casey overtook Rossi on the remaining laps because he had the advantage of the slipstream aswell as a few Mph on Rossi.

'Certain people' meaning me, right?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Louise @ Jun 12 2007, 05:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>People who aren't Rossi fans have to understand the fact that Stoner WASN'T racing on a Ducati last year. Stoner WASN'T doing well last year, so of course people are going to say that it's down to his bike for winning. If it wasn't then why of a sudden is he so quick this year and wasn't last year? Why didn't he always win last year like he has this year?
Of course Casey winning has something to do with his bike because if he was so incredible like Stoner fans are making him out to be, then why wasn't he always on the podium with the LCR. He's the same person as he was last year and his bike is keeping him on the podium. Face the facts, they all owe it down to their bike. Sure, they have talent, but they need the bike to go fast to win against other racers. It's a simple fact

This is ludicrous, Maybe Stoner didn't win because it was his first season, maybe he didn't win because he didn't have full factory support. Yes Stoner crashed alot but so did Rossi and Doohan in their first seasons. I've heard this said many times, a rider who crashes alot in their first season is a rider who will become a great rider( or will just be ....). He crashed alot because he was always pushing the limits of the bike because knowing the limitation and breaking point is the key to sucsses. For a 21 year old to take 4 wins away from the man who is considered the greatest is an incredible feat, a feat never seen in motogp before. And to say its all down to his machine is quite frankly rude, you know what, some people would consider a rossi's engineer team, lack of competition, superior machinery (pre- yamaha era) an unfair advantage aswell.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Louise @ Jun 12 2007, 09:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Okay then.. where was Nicky Hayden in 2005? More to the point, where the hell is Nicky Hayden NOW?
'Certain people' meaning me, right?

Does the shoe fit?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Louise @ Jun 12 2007, 09:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Okay then.. where was Nicky Hayden in 2005? More to the point, where the hell is Nicky Hayden NOW?
'Certain people' meaning me, right?

Nicky was 3rd in 2005, and is struggling now as you know. But that means nothing anyway, his form in 2006 was the best in the world regardless of how he is performing now. Your "2006 was just a lucky year" logic can also be applied in the opposite direction to claim that nicky is still the best rider out there, hes just having bad luck. But we both know thats not true, so get over it. Or shall we start calling Rossi a 7 times lucky .......?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Electric Mofo @ Jun 12 2007, 09:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This is ludicrous, Maybe Stoner didn't win because it was his first season, maybe he didn't win because he didn't have full factory support. Yes Stoner crashed alot but so did Rossi and Doohan in their first seasons. I've heard this said many times, a rider who crashes alot in their first season is a rider who will become a great rider( or will just be ....). He crashed alot because he was always pushing the limits of the bike because knowing the limitation and breaking point is the key to sucsses. For a 21 year old to take 4 wins away from the man who is considered the greatest is an incredible feat, a feat never seen in motogp before. And to say its all down to his machine is quite frankly rude, you know what, some people would consider a rossi's engineer team, lack of competition, superior machinery (pre- yamaha era) an unfair advantage aswell.
Does the shoe fit?

If you actually knew my point, then you would know that I wasn't saying that everything that Casey wins is down to the bike. I said 'it has something to do with his bike' so 'quite frankly' I wasn't being rude

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jun 12 2007, 09:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Nicky was 3rd in 2005, and is struggling now as you know. But that means nothing anyway, his form in 2006 was the best in the world regardless of how he is performing now. Your "2006 was just a lucky year" logic can also be applied in the opposite direction to claim that nicky is still the best rider out there, hes just having bad luck. But we both know thats not true, so get over it. Or shall we start calling Rossi a 7 times lucky .......?

Oh, okay, so he can have bad luck, but not good luck? Pfft
Call Rossi that if you want. He knows he's lucky because it says in his biography.
Oh and by the way, he isn't the best out there, Stoner, Rossi and Pedrosa are all incredibley better than him

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jun 12 2007, 09:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Your "2006 was just a lucky year" logic can also be applied in the opposite direction to claim that nicky is still the best rider out there, hes just having bad luck.

That's a bloody good quote Tom and I agree, he's having awful luck this year. But by your logic maybe it's not luck and he actually is rubbish?


(Joke my friend of course he isn't rubbish)

Errrr... no louise the point you made was Casey was crap last year so the ducati is the only factor because of his big improvment.