Catlunya Race Talk - Spoiler

Let me start by declaring I am a Stoner fan.

Are the Rossi fans serious in their comments that Stoner only wins because he is on the best or fastest bike? This theory reveals some flaws that will reflect badly on Rossi's past performances.

1) Does this mean Rossi can only win on the best bike? If he is truely the best he doesn't need the best bike and should still win as many many people in the past have said that the bike is 20% of the equation the rider is 80%.

2) If we go back to the first couple of seasons of 990cc MotoGP especially the first when most of the field were still on 500cc 2 strokes for at least part of the season. Does this mean that these championships won by Rossi were actually won by the Honda and therefore Rossi should only claim 5 World Championships?

3) Up until this year Michelin were the best tyre by far so does this mean that Michelin riders only won championships because of their tyres and not because of their skills? Also it is widely excepted that previous seasons Michelin has handed out tyres of different quality to different riders. I am sure Rossi has always received the best that Michelin has on offer so does this devalue his championships?

4) The likes of Biaggi and Gibernea and their fans constantly whinged about their equipment in comparison to Rossi's. Does your whinging now give weight to their claims and therefore devalue the championships Rossi won against these riders?

I am sure I could go on and on about the equipment Rossi has won championships on in comparison to what his competitors have had at the same time. I know that people are now going to say - what about Rossi's first year on Yamaha? Well IMO that was his best championship by far and proved him to be a great rider. This however doesn't let off the fact that Rossi always has the best equipment each manufacturer he is associated with has on offer.

If you are going to devalue Stoners performance by saying that it is an equipment advantage then you must except the same for Rossi in the past which would make Rossi less of a champion than he is.

So I suggest Rossi fans that display an unrealistic bias should pull their heads in and maybe say that Rossi greatness will be defined by his ability to win despite any equipment short falls he may or may not have. And in the mean time give Casey Stoner the kudos he so rightly deserves for the pure riding performance he has displayed in every race so far this season.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TP70 @ Jun 12 2007, 09:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Let me start by declaring I am a Stoner fan.

Are the Rossi fans serious in their comments that Stoner only wins because he is on the best or fastest bike? This theory reveals some flaws that will reflect badly on Rossi's past performances.

1) Does this mean Rossi can only win on the best bike? If he is truely the best he doesn't need the best bike and should still win as many many people in the past have said that the bike is 20% of the equation the rider is 80%.

2) If we go back to the first couple of seasons of 990cc MotoGP especially the first when most of the field were still on 500cc 2 strokes for at least part of the season. Does this mean that these championships won by Rossi were actually won by the Honda and therefore Rossi should only claim 5 World Championships?

3) Up until this year Michelin were the best tyre by far so does this mean that Michelin riders only won championships because of their tyres and not because of their skills? Also it is widely excepted that previous seasons Michelin has handed out tyres of different quality to different riders. I am sure Rossi has always received the best that Michelin has on offer so does this devalue his championships?

4) The likes of Biaggi and Gibernea and their fans constantly whinged about their equipment in comparison to Rossi's. Does your whinging now give weight to their claims and therefore devalue the championships Rossi won against these riders?

I am sure I could go on and on about the equipment Rossi has won championships on in comparison to what his competitors have had at the same time. I know that people are now going to say - what about Rossi's first year on Yamaha? Well IMO that was his best championship by far and proved him to be a great rider. This however doesn't let off the fact that Rossi always has the best equipment each manufacturer he is associated with has on offer.

If you are going to devalue Stoners performance by saying that it is an equipment advantage then you must except the same for Rossi in the past which would make Rossi less of a champion than he is.

So I suggest Rossi fans that display an unrealistic bias should pull their heads in and maybe say that Rossi greatness will be defined by his ability to win despite any equipment short falls he may or may not have. And in the mean time give Casey Stoner the kudos he so rightly deserves for the pure riding performance he has displayed in every race so far this season.

I agree. For a 1st post and you sure are asking for it!

asking for it from mindless fanboys. im a di-hard rossi fan and always have been, im not even that fond of Stoner, but he was fantastic in that race. ppl say he only got past rossi when he made a mistake, but guess what, rossi did exactly that, he made mistakes when he overshot his braking a few times yet stoner kept a cool head and made very little.

ppl are so blinded by their likes for a rider that that cant see whats actually happening in front of them. its quite pathetic.

com'on peeps... can't we just enjoy the race as it is and avoid devaluing efforts of our favorite rider's opponents? no IFs and BUTs, rossi was beaten in catalunya, stoner was beaten in mugello. both of them acknowledged this fact and get ready to MOVE ON for the NEXT race...

we are given a TREAT for this season if the remaining races remain this close, let's just enjoy IT as it is m'k?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TP70 @ Jun 12 2007, 12:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Let me start by declaring I am a Stoner fan.

Are the Rossi fans serious in their comments that Stoner only wins because he is on the best or fastest bike? This theory reveals some flaws that will reflect badly on Rossi's past performances.

1) Does this mean Rossi can only win on the best bike? If he is truely the best he doesn't need the best bike and should still win as many many people in the past have said that the bike is 20% of the equation the rider is 80%.

2) If we go back to the first couple of seasons of 990cc MotoGP especially the first when most of the field were still on 500cc 2 strokes for at least part of the season. Does this mean that these championships won by Rossi were actually won by the Honda and therefore Rossi should only claim 5 World Championships?

3) Up until this year Michelin were the best tyre by far so does this mean that Michelin riders only won championships because of their tyres and not because of their skills? Also it is widely excepted that previous seasons Michelin has handed out tyres of different quality to different riders. I am sure Rossi has always received the best that Michelin has on offer so does this devalue his championships?

4) The likes of Biaggi and Gibernea and their fans constantly whinged about their equipment in comparison to Rossi's. Does your whinging now give weight to their claims and therefore devalue the championships Rossi won against these riders?

I am sure I could go on and on about the equipment Rossi has won championships on in comparison to what his competitors have had at the same time. I know that people are now going to say - what about Rossi's first year on Yamaha? Well IMO that was his best championship by far and proved him to be a great rider. This however doesn't let off the fact that Rossi always has the best equipment each manufacturer he is associated with has on offer.

If you are going to devalue Stoners performance by saying that it is an equipment advantage then you must except the same for Rossi in the past which would make Rossi less of a champion than he is.

So I suggest Rossi fans that display an unrealistic bias should pull their heads in and maybe say that Rossi greatness will be defined by his ability to win despite any equipment short falls he may or may not have. And in the mean time give Casey Stoner the kudos he so rightly deserves for the pure riding performance he has displayed in every race so far this season.


Good post, welcome

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TP70 @ Jun 12 2007, 12:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Let me start by declaring I am a Stoner fan.

Are the Rossi fans serious in their comments that Stoner only wins because he is on the best or fastest bike? This theory reveals some flaws that will reflect badly on Rossi's past performances.

1) Does this mean Rossi can only win on the best bike? If he is truely the best he doesn't need the best bike and should still win as many many people in the past have said that the bike is 20% of the equation the rider is 80%.

2) If we go back to the first couple of seasons of 990cc MotoGP especially the first when most of the field were still on 500cc 2 strokes for at least part of the season. Does this mean that these championships won by Rossi were actually won by the Honda and therefore Rossi should only claim 5 World Championships?

3) Up until this year Michelin were the best tyre by far so does this mean that Michelin riders only won championships because of their tyres and not because of their skills? Also it is widely excepted that previous seasons Michelin has handed out tyres of different quality to different riders. I am sure Rossi has always received the best that Michelin has on offer so does this devalue his championships?

4) The likes of Biaggi and Gibernea and their fans constantly whinged about their equipment in comparison to Rossi's. Does your whinging now give weight to their claims and therefore devalue the championships Rossi won against these riders?

I am sure I could go on and on about the equipment Rossi has won championships on in comparison to what his competitors have had at the same time. I know that people are now going to say - what about Rossi's first year on Yamaha? Well IMO that was his best championship by far and proved him to be a great rider. This however doesn't let off the fact that Rossi always has the best equipment each manufacturer he is associated with has on offer.

If you are going to devalue Stoners performance by saying that it is an equipment advantage then you must except the same for Rossi in the past which would make Rossi less of a champion than he is.

So I suggest Rossi fans that display an unrealistic bias should pull their heads in and maybe say that Rossi greatness will be defined by his ability to win despite any equipment short falls he may or may not have. And in the mean time give Casey Stoner the kudos he so rightly deserves for the pure riding performance he has displayed in every race so far this season.Welcome tp! Solid post. When Pedrosa wins a race then it'll be the Hondas fault. When Rossi wins it'll be despite the Honda and Ducati. Fact of life mate. It's those 'rossi tinted glasses'.

But we're not talking about a 1 or 2 km/h advantage are we, were talking about upto 10 km/h difference. The kind of advantage that has never been seen before, it's something different. I'm not going to devalue Stoner's abilities, you pretty much can't he hasn't put a wheel out of line. But lets not fool ourselves, the speed advantage upto Catalunya is the kind of advantage it's impossible to overcome. & After all it is Casey who is saying "we don't have a speed advantage" & I wonder if he is telling himself that as much as us. It was Qatar & China part 3 last weekend, that doesn't devalue Casey, it's realistic.

However I think & I hope that it's academic now, after the slipstreaming fun of Spain, a few more clicks on the Honda & Yamaha, & it's all square.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Goatboy @ Jun 12 2007, 09:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>the speed advantage upto Catalunya is the kind of advantage it's impossible to overcome.

There is a lot more to racing that straight line speed (except in drag racing) and Rossi has clearly won two races this season, proving that the Ducati's speed is not impossible to overcome. The GP7 is a lot faster at the end of the straights, but also notice that Rossi's bike is actually quicker on short straights, it brakes better and changes direction faster. These things make up for the speed disadvantage well enough for Rossi to win races (if he doesn't make mistakes).

Only got to watch the race last night and I was really looking forward to it after reading all this.

WOW fabulous race, so good to see Vale getting close enough to the Duke to slipstream it on the straight, which we haven't seen yet this season, so the gap is lessening and much much more positive for the other teams, great to see 5 different bikes in the top 5 places so some fabulous riding had definitely taken place. Pedrosa I think by his own admission was working hard to keep up with Stoner and Vale and basically hoping that there would be a mistake from both of them, but great riding from him too. Vale looked like he enjoyed himself which is what I like to see, even though he was 2nd he was happy to have taken part in such an epic battle.

So apart from the Roberts Team waddling around the back of the grid that race deserves a 10/10

And.............you lot going on about how ugly Stoner is.........I have to say that he is actually getting more attractive by the day.............


So what first attracted you to the (maybe) World Champion Casey Stoner???

Liz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jun 12 2007, 09:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>There is a lot more to racing that straight line speed (except in drag racing) and Rossi has clearly won two races this season, proving that the Ducati's speed is not impossible to overcome. The GP7 is a lot faster at the end of the straights, but also notice that Rossi's bike is actually quicker on short straights, it brakes better and changes direction faster. These things make up for the speed disadvantage well enough for Rossi to win races (if he doesn't make mistakes).That's just too pedantic, you want me to sit here & write out every little bit taking into account all the time how you "want" to read what I'm saying & filling in the obvious? I'd never get any work done!!

I elected to drop three words "on long straights" & this immediatley means I'm wrong

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TP70 @ Jun 12 2007, 09:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Let me start by declaring I am a Stoner fan.

Are the Rossi fans serious in their comments that Stoner only wins because he is on the best or fastest bike? This theory reveals some flaws that will reflect badly on Rossi's past performances.

1) Does this mean Rossi can only win on the best bike? If he is truely the best he doesn't need the best bike and should still win as many many people in the past have said that the bike is 20% of the equation the rider is 80%.

2) If we go back to the first couple of seasons of 990cc MotoGP especially the first when most of the field were still on 500cc 2 strokes for at least part of the season. Does this mean that these championships won by Rossi were actually won by the Honda and therefore Rossi should only claim 5 World Championships?

3) Up until this year Michelin were the best tyre by far so does this mean that Michelin riders only won championships because of their tyres and not because of their skills? Also it is widely excepted that previous seasons Michelin has handed out tyres of different quality to different riders. I am sure Rossi has always received the best that Michelin has on offer so does this devalue his championships?

4) The likes of Biaggi and Gibernea and their fans constantly whinged about their equipment in comparison to Rossi's. Does your whinging now give weight to their claims and therefore devalue the championships Rossi won against these riders?

I am sure I could go on and on about the equipment Rossi has won championships on in comparison to what his competitors have had at the same time. I know that people are now going to say - what about Rossi's first year on Yamaha? Well IMO that was his best championship by far and proved him to be a great rider. This however doesn't let off the fact that Rossi always has the best equipment each manufacturer he is associated with has on offer.

If you are going to devalue Stoners performance by saying that it is an equipment advantage then you must except the same for Rossi in the past which would make Rossi less of a champion than he is.

So I suggest Rossi fans that display an unrealistic bias should pull their heads in and maybe say that Rossi greatness will be defined by his ability to win despite any equipment short falls he may or may not have. And in the mean time give Casey Stoner the kudos he so rightly deserves for the pure riding performance he has displayed in every race so far this season.

Good post, and welcome. I'm no fan of Stoner (or Rossi for that matter), but you make some good points. Stoner is making it harder for his critics to find fault in his perfomances. I should know, I am one!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Goatboy @ Jun 12 2007, 10:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>That's just too pedantic, you want me to sit here & write out every little bit taking into account all the time how you "want" to read what I'm saying & filling in the obvious? I'd never get any work done!!

I elected to drop three words "on long straights" & this immediatley means I'm wrong

All i am saying is that its total crap to take one element out of a package and say Casey only wins because of that. There are so many factors that make a racing performance, to simplify Stoner's season to one thing, like so many people are doing is pathetic. Maybe a bit more time should be spent talking about Casey's riding, his approach and the brilliant relationship hes struck with his team.

Interesting to read some comments in this thread were some people tend to think that the speed of the Ducati is an advantage that the others can't match.

In my opinion Ducati's approach to their MotoGP bikes has been a little less cultured than anyone elses. Whilst the Japanese factories tend to go for a stable and flickable machine, Ducati have adopted a "let's build a rocket ship and get someone to ride it" approach. Fortunatley for Ducati the package fits Stoner and it shows. The bike doesn't suit Loris in any shape or form, so what of the speed advantage there? It's not helping him is it??

Top end speed is useful, we're talking racing here, but it's not everything, not by a long way.

Yes Stoner has the alround perfect package (this year so far) and this in no way undermines his ability as a rider, he showed promise last year, but some immaturity, but this year, he HAS, totally shut his critics up (well most of them ) His ride this weekend showed he is not averse to pressure and having Rossi up your arse for a whole race is probably the biggest psychological pressure you could ever have to endure. He survived it but Rossi won't make it easy for him to win the championship and isn't that what we all want? To see the ultimate racers racing down to the thousandth of a second?

But yes this bike doesn't suit Loris does it? So you have to say that Stoner has riding skill as well as a faster bike.......or that he is able to adapt his riding style more easily than Loris to the new 800 bike.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jun 12 2007, 10:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>All i am saying is that its total crap to take one element out of a package and say Casey only wins because of that. There are so many factors that make a racing performance, to simplify Stoner's season to one thing, like so many people are doing is pathetic.But that's not what I said at all.

I said to deny he has a speed advantage is pathetic, to deny it's an advantage so strong we've never seen it's like before was pathetic. I didn't deny his skill, the opposite in fact.

I really shouldn't say this because I haven't reseached it at all, but isn't it almost fair to say that in nearly every top team one rider seems to be whipping the ... of the other? With the possible exception of Gresini (possible)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (l13eaw @ Jun 12 2007, 11:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>He survived it but Rossi won't make it easy for him to win the championship and isn't that what we all want? To see the ultimate racers racing down to the thousandth of a second?

Absolutely. Whilst Stoner appears to have the right package, Rossi remains the daddy (for now ), and I'd love to see it go to the last race etc etc. Whether it does or not we'll see. But I'd never back against Vali. Not never !!!!


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (l13eaw @ Jun 12 2007, 11:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But yes this bike doesn't suit Loris does it? So you have to say that Stoner has riding skill as well as a faster bike.......or that he is able to adapt his riding style more easily than Loris to the new 800 bike.

Apparently it's like riding with a turbo charger. That sudden kick of horses that you get when a turbo starts, it's like that. But you have to keep it revving to keep it going. I think Loris is more suited to grunt than revs if you know what I'm trying to say? And hence he's struggling with the bike.

Yes and you could also summise that perhaps the two recent upgrades from 250 cc's (Stoner and Pedrosa) are finding the 800's easier to handle than long timer 990 riders.........With the obvious exception of Rossi, which also underlines again what an outstandingly versatile rider Rossi is, and I think that is the key, the riders up front are the most flexible, in that there have been huge changes to the bikes and these guys are the most able to field them. So therefore when the next newbies come up from 250's then they might do better in their first rookie year than perhaps Stoner and Pedrosa did. Interesting stuff.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (l13eaw @ Jun 12 2007, 12:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So therefore when the next newbies come up from 250's then they might do better in their first rookie year than perhaps Stoner and Pedrosa did. Interesting stuff.

I am excited about this, the first generation of riders to never have ridden the 990's, and Jorge Lorenzo is amongst them to boot.

yes Tom the more I think about it the more excited I am, Roll on 2008

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (l13eaw @ Jun 12 2007, 12:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yes and you could also summise that perhaps the two recent upgrades from 250 cc's (Stoner and Pedrosa) are finding the 800's easier to handle than long timer 990 riders.........With the obvious exception of Rossi, which also underlines again what an outstandingly versatile rider Rossi is, and I think that is the key, the riders up front are the most flexible, in that there have been huge changes to the bikes and these guys are the most able to field them. So therefore when the next newbies come up from 250's then they might do better in their first rookie year than perhaps Stoner and Pedrosa did. Interesting stuff.


Couldn't agree more.

<Looks for the thumbs up smilie>