Bombshell!! Casey Stoner signs with Honda!

povol said:

Pure nonsense. To date, Stoner has blown away Doohans numbers in their first five seasons, and has done it against the best who has ever ridden. Stoners competition is light years ahead of what Doohan had to face. Doohan started his domination after Rainey suffered his crippling injury. There is no telling how many more titles Rainey would have won. He was leading the points for the season in what would have been his 4th straight title. But that is racing. After Rainey went down and Schwantz faded, Doohan rattled off 5 straight titles against maybe the weakest collection of riders the sport has seen from top to bottom. It was an era that begged someone to dominate, and Doohan did. He certainly did not have a Rossi or Lorenzo to contend with during his streak.

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povol said:

It has been covered. When Rainey was racing, Doohan wasnt winning championships, his dominance didnt begin till after Rainey was crippled. Schwantz was beat to death from wrecking so much and Rainey's misfortune spooked him into retirement. Like i said, Doohans domination came over the core group of riders i listed.

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Povol,



One thing you overlook (either deliberately or accidentally) is the fact that Rainey's third title came about following Doohans crash that resulted in his major leg injury and thus crippled his year.



The year in which Rainey suffered his tragic accident it is true that Doohan was less competitive but it is also an accepted fact that his injury was still healing itself following the butchering that he received at initial treatment.



So, to say that he only dominated after the Rainey/Schwantz era is (IMO) to overlook the fact that he beat both of those guys regularly when all were fully fit. The fact that he took some time to recover and thence was able to dominate a 'lesser' (your insinuation) field does not and should not bely that he was also more than competitive against the likes of Rainey, Schwantz, Lawson et al.









Now, I am sure some expect a comment in regards to Stoner so here it is from my side.



He is not, and never will be the next or the equal of Doohan who for my mind has no peer in terms of total grit and/or ability from any Australian rider whom I have witnessed at the highest level (highest being GP level). For mine, Stoner is the opposite of MD in so many ways that to even offer a comparison is unfair to each as they are clearly from differing eras each of which has their own positives and negatives.













Gaz

chopperman said:

Hold on a sec. Stoner had ...... Michelin's on the Honda and everyone was switching to stones you say ?? that was back in 06 stoner was riding the Honda on the french rubber and at that time they were the tyres to have. The Michelin trouble and consequent defection took place in 08. wtf you going on about Kesh ?? your post reminded me of something funny tho.. Remember stoner claiming some Honda spy's were breaking into his garage in the dark of night and changing settings on his bike or changing the tyres

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In '06 it was the "accepted belief" that Michelin was "the tire" to be on because they had the perceived advantage of

the overnight specials. But Stoner wasn't getting the same quality of service from Michelin that Rossi, Hayden and

Pedrosa etc were getting. He was too far down the pecking order to get the best rubber.

Gaz said:

Povol,



One thing you overlook (either deliberately or accidentally) is the fact that Rainey's third title came about following Doohans crash that resulted in his major leg injury and thus crippled his year.



The year in which Rainey suffered his tragic accident it is true that Doohan was less competitive but it is also an accepted fact that his injury was still healing itself following the butchering that he received at initial treatment.



So, to say that he only dominated after the Rainey/Schwantz era is (IMO) to overlook the fact that he beat both of those guys regularly when all were fully fit. The fact that he took some time to recover and thence was able to dominate a 'lesser' (your insinuation) field does not and should not bely that he was also more than competitive against the likes of Rainey, Schwantz, Lawson et al.









Now, I am sure some expect a comment in regards to Stoner so here it is from my side.



He is not, and never will be the next or the equal of Doohan who for my mind has no peer in terms of total grit and/or ability from any Australian rider whom I have witnessed at the highest level (highest being GP level). For mine, Stoner is the opposite of MD in so many ways that to even offer a comparison is unfair to each as they are clearly from differing eras each of which has their own positives and negatives.













Gaz

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Good post Gaz

chopperman said:

Are you for real ?

I wouldn't any of the grid with maybe the exception of capi had 'neanderthal-macho factor'. What do you know anout Hailwood then ?

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I'm not saying the Capi etc have that factor - but then none of the Rossifumi are comparing him all the time to Rossi because he's

not considered a threat to their hero.



Re: Hailwood.... He's not as well known to the general public because the media was not - in his time - as all pervasive - but I've read the biographies on him - and the impression I've always come away with is that he was more the laid-back Garry Cooper-ish stalwart, without the conspicuous drunken party-boy antics or the chest beating bragadoccio that we've seen from some other riders. I'm not saying he was a choir boy. Mind you... those bios can be pretty hagiographic and smooth over certain "bumps" - but a certain sense of Hailwood's essense seems to shine through in similar fashion in all the stuff I've seen published about him. I'm sure the British fans had a more intimate relationship with him than we did - so I will concede that you may know all kinds of stuff that we over here never were privy to. When I first became aware of him in '79 he was already a mythological figure. And when I heard he'd died and how he died - it was like the day we heard John Lennon had died - dumbstruck, total disbelief.

Talpa said:

bop.......bop.........bop........bop.........toss!



....... rubbish



what tyres did the top three finishers in the title race run from let's say 02-06?? BS gained dominance in 07-08 with a major rule change and several resurfaced tracks.

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Yes, stoner cannot be compared with doohan any more than he can be with rossi. However his career so far is fairly directly comparable with gardner's and not far short of schwantz's . You would wonder why honda would have any interest in someone so hopeless.



What tyres were used by the riders who finished 2nd and 3rd , and where did the other bridgestone shod factory ducati rider finish, in 2007?

Casey has immense raw talent, maybe more than any rider since Hailwood himself, but so far he seems to lack the mental strength and readiness to sacrifice of a Doohan. He will reach easily as far as his incredible natural talent takes him in "fair weather", but he may stop and withdraw in front of tough psychological/physical challenges.

Otherwise, he'll be the next Great -- no doubt.

Gaz said:

Povol,



One thing you overlook (either deliberately or accidentally) is the fact that Rainey's third title came about following Doohans crash that resulted in his major leg injury and thus crippled his year.



The year in which Rainey suffered his tragic accident it is true that Doohan was less competitive but it is also an accepted fact that his injury was still healing itself following the butchering that he received at initial treatment.



So, to say that he only dominated after the Rainey/Schwantz era is (IMO) to overlook the fact that he beat both of those guys regularly when all were fully fit. The fact that he took some time to recover and thence was able to dominate a 'lesser' (your insinuation) field does not and should not bely that he was also more than competitive against the likes of Rainey, Schwantz, Lawson et al.









Now, I am sure some expect a comment in regards to Stoner so here it is from my side.



He is not, and never will be the next or the equal of Doohan who for my mind has no peer in terms of total grit and/or ability from any Australian rider whom I have witnessed at the highest level (highest being GP level). For mine, Stoner is the opposite of MD in so many ways that to even offer a comparison is unfair to each as they are clearly from differing eras each of which has their own positives and negatives.













Gaz

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So, if Stoner wheels off 5 or six titles and has 15-20 total wins over Doohan, he will never be Doohans equal. Because what, he doesnt fit your idea of grit and determination. Besides the inability to let go of a childhood hero, i do not understand that mindset at all. I get what your saying, it was a phase i went thru in my 30's. My childhood sports favorites are still my all time favorites, its an imprint thing,even though in some sports,your childhood favorite might not make the roster in todays games. If Doohan is your guy, he is your guy, i get that, i just dont get the lack of respect that Stoner receives from the GP community at large. It would be interesting to see what the perception of Rossi would be if he suffered an injury like Doohans. Would he show that grit and toughness

povol said:

It has been covered. When Rainey was racing, Doohan wasnt winning championships, his dominance didnt begin till after Rainey was crippled. Schwantz was beat to death from wrecking so much and Rainey's misfortune spooked him into retirement. Like i said, Doohans domination came over the core group of riders i listed.

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But Doohan wan several races during all this great Riders era, which is my point, not such a great Rookie year but definitely a Great Rider, a Legend. He also 'Dominated' from 1994 till 1998; Schwantz and Kocinski were still riding in 1994 and got wins.



I can see some Stoner fans trying to lower Doohan's results in order to make Stoner's seem higher. This may be destructive, if Stoner does not end up being a Legend, you may be out of Doohans Legendary Status too, because it is being already nailed by some.



I would not want to lower Agostini's in other to make it seem Rossi is higher. Rossi still needs to break some of the hardest Records from Agostini to be broken:



1.- 123 Total Wins.

2.- 8 Top Class Championships (15 Total out of the question but Top Class is what matters the most).

3.- 12 successive Seasons in Top Class with at least one win (Rossi has eleven of this now with Qatar's).

VHMP01 said:

But Doohan wan several races during all this great Riders era, which is my point, not such a great Rookie year but definitely a Great Rider, a Legend. He also 'Dominated' from 1994 till 1998; Schwantz and Kocinski were still riding in 1994 and got wins.



I can see some Stoner fans trying to lower Doohan's results in order to make Stoner's seem higher. This may be destructive, if Stoner does not end up being a Legend, you may be out of Doohans Legendary Status too, because it is being already nailed by some.



I would not want to lower Agostini's in other to make it seem Rossi is higher. Rossi still needs to break some of the hardest Records from Agostini to be broken:



1.- 123 Total Wins.

2.- 8 Top Class Championships (15 Total out of the question but Top Class is what matters the most).

3.- 12 successive Seasons in Top Class with at least one win (Rossi has eleven of this now with Qatar's).

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Winning 10 races in his first 5 years against some of the best riders in the history of the sport, getting a second place finish in the championship, sounds remarkably like Dani Pedrosa.

The 12 and 9 and 8 win seasons came later against that core group i mentioned. Doohan is a legend, nothing Casey Stoner or his fans do, is going to change that. Besides, are not most Casey fans, Doohan fans, or does Casey not fit the mold of the Aussie racer

povol said:

Winning 10 races in his first 5 years against some of the best riders in the history of the sport, getting a second place finish in the championship, sounds remarkably like Dani Pedrosa.

The 12 and 9 and 8 win seasons came later against that core group i mentioned. Doohan is a legend, nothing Casey Stoner or his fans do, is going to change that. Besides, are not most Casey fans, Doohan fans, or does Casey not fit the mold of the Aussie racer

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Stoner does not fit the ‘mold’ of a Legend, Doohan does! Nothing to do with Nationality.

chopperman said:

Hold on a sec. Stoner had ...... Michelin's on the Honda and everyone was switching to stones you say ?? that was back in 06 stoner was riding the Honda on the french rubber and at that time they were the tyres to have. The Michelin trouble and consequent defection took place in 08. wtf you going on about Kesh ?? your post reminded me of something funny tho.. Remember stoner claiming some Honda spy's were breaking into his garage in the dark of night and changing settings on his bike or changing the tyres

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Hi



Where and when did he claim this?

VHMP01 said:

Stoner does not fit the ‘mold’ of a Legend, Doohan does! Nothing to do with Nationality.

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What exactly is that mold. The legend of legends has shown unworldly talent and a second to none will to win, but has he ever shown the mental grit of a Doohan to push through devastating injury and excruciating pain to race. No, he hasnt had to, so maybe we should wait to tag him as a legend till he proves he is a tough guy.

VHMP01 said:

Stoner does not fit the ‘mold’ of a Legend, Doohan does! Nothing to do with Nationality.

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Aye coño.... Here it comes again; the "It Factor".

stiefel said:

Hi



Where and when did he claim this?

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Back in 06 when he would qualify well but crash in the race. It's common knowledge he claimed this back then.

chopperman said:

Back in 06 when he would qualify well but crash in the race. It's common knowledge he claimed this back then.

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He definitely made intimations that in 2006 the bike he rode on race day was different than the one he practiced on. Whilst fairly non-specific in his initial rermarks in the early part of 2007 which could have been construed as including honda amongst those he blamed for this alleged state of affairs, he has been fairly constant since then in only blaming michelin, with the implication that not only did he not get saturday night specials but not even tyres as good as he practiced on. He has also said that lcr did not let him set up the bike according to his own preference.



I should add that he never criticised michelin, honda or lcr whilst under contract to them, as he has not complained about ducati or even marlboro since.

chopperman said:

Back in 06 when he would qualify well but crash in the race. It's common knowledge he claimed this back then.

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It wasn't common knowledge to me. I do distinctly remember him complaining about the LCR crew's lack of faith in his set-up abilities and that they would set the bike up the way they saw fit, even when this went against his wishes. Because he was a young rookie at that time, such a situation did not seem altogether unlikely to me.

Nowhere have I seen claims about Honda spies breaking into his garage, except on this message board. Of course, if you could provide some believable quotation, I would be happy to accept that any such statement was made.



Thanks in advance!

chopperman said:

Back in 06 when he would qualify well but crash in the race. It's common knowledge he claimed this back then.

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stop Rog. Stop

michaelm said:

He definitely made intimations that in 2006 the bike he rode on race day was different than the one he practiced on. Whilst fairly non-specific in his initial rermarks in the early part of 2007 which could have been construed as including honda amongst those he blamed for this alleged state of affairs, he has been fairly constant since then in only blaming michelin, with the implication that not only did he not get saturday night specials but not even tyres as good as he practiced on. He has also said that lcr did not let him set up the bike according to his own preference.



I should add that he never criticised michelin, honda or lcr whilst under contract to them, as he has not complained about ducati or even marlboro since.

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This seems to be more along the lines of what I remember. It also seems quite different from the claim that it was 'common knowledge that Casey claimed that Honda spies broke into his garage at night to change settings and tires'.

VHMP01 said:

Stoner does not fit the ‘mold’ of a Legend, Doohan does! Nothing to do with Nationality.

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V, I thought ONLY Rossi fit the "legend" mold in all of GP history...

VHMP01 said:

Stoner does not fit the ‘mold’ of a Legend, Doohan does! Nothing to do with Nationality.

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Bit of a dumb statement! Stoner is already a legend!, and it can't be revoked once in place