A theoretical question on the Yamaha seat

Daniboy said:

And all yours are brilliant? Too one sided for starters.

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You made a stupid post trying to get us and Lorenzo in some 'gotcha' moment, and instead of recognizing you completely got it wrong, you've doubled down further on what was a dumb post to begin with.

JPSLotus said:

Here's Lorenzo's quote..

Disrespectful?

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Of course it wasn't disrespectful, Lorenzo was stating rather matter of factly. There wouldn't have been one line of "journalism" written on it unless Rossi made it a story by leveling a baseless accusation. Sound familiar?

Daniboy says he's watched GP for years, therefore he'll remember Rossi and his minions painted Hayden's championship based on luck--a fluke. The thing is Nicky never went to the media for "journalists" to do his bidding; therefore it wasn't "disrespectful". (Not that it would have worked, the media back then tacitly agreed 06 was a fluke...similar to Oxley now in defense of Rossi, or Hodgson accusing Marquez of cheating at Valencia, it all revolves around what Rossi thinks). You see, the only way something is true is if it passes the litmus test of: Rossi said so.

Rossi has many times said he was "lucky" or "unlucky" in various occasions. Was he being disrespectful to his competitor?

Daniboy said:

So everything about Rossi is a story and everything about Lorenzo is a non story ?

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And everything you write is a fairy tale

JohnnyKnockdown said:

And everything you write is a fairy tale

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Really? Just for the record I think most of the utter ..... that is written on here is also a fairy tale, just made to fit in with the forum doctrine.

Rossi didn't say Hayden's championship was a fluke, I know many people did but he never.

Marco Lucchinelli on the other hand was so spawny that he was christened 'Lucky-nelli' as I recall.

But then is there such a thing as lucky Champions over the entire duration of a season?

Bitter Tottenham Hotspur fans certainly seem to think so right now.

Arrabbiata1 said:

Marco Lucchinelli on the other hand was so spawny that he was christened 'Lucky-nelli' as I recall.

But then is there such a thing as lucky Champions over the entire duration of a season?

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chopperman said:

its not the first time theres been a caretaker champion because of a true champions bad luck, im not taking anything away from nicky,he scored the most points so he is the champion and congrats to him. but just remember who developed that bike that made him so consistant in the first place.
hayden is a world champion, rossi is a 7 times world champion.
im so looking forward to next season on the 800's i recon it will be like the rossi rc211v days,and the likes of hayden will have to prove them selves.

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There were plenty of backhanded compliments given to Hayden.

JPSLotus said:

There were plenty of backhanded compliments given to Hayden.

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Hahaha, you just quoted Rog. I was best man at his wedding. Of course that was then, over the years Chop's eyes opened to the real Rossi. But that's because I could reason with Chopper. Reason & logic: can't get past it if there is nothing to work with as you can see with others around here.

Jumkie said:

Hahaha, you just quoted Rog. I was best man at his wedding. Of course that was then, over the years Chop's eyes opened to the real Rossi. But that's because I could reason with Chopper. Reason & logic: can't get past it if there is nothing to work with as you can see with others around here.

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That's why I quoted him.

But point was more about people not really accepting Hayden as the 2006 World Champion 10 years ago even when they said they were congratulating Nicky for winning.

Daniboy said:

Rossi didn't say Hayden's championship was a fluke, I know many people did but he never.

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Neither did Lorenzo about Rossi, yet you just tried to use an article where Rossi claims he 'felt disrespected' by Lorenzo to assert Jorge started this .... first. Where Jorge didn't even use the word "unlucky" like Rossi claimed! You posted the article and Lorenzo doesn't even use the word, it was ....... Rossi taking Lorenzo's words about his struggle with the front tire, where Rossi then said Lorenzo is disrespectful by claiming being "unlucky". Read the article you posted again. Point to where Lorenzo says he is trailing the championship because of "unluck". You're unbelievable. You take the time to cut and paste a link and you don't even get the words right!

Daniboy said:

Okay I'm going to go further back in the season and say it was Lorenzo who first came out with disrespect for VR last season thus starting the bad feelings.
Rossi hits back at Lorenzo; It's war
Not defending Rossi here, just pointing out that Lorenzo had also been sticking the verbal boot in too. I'm hoping you also see that for what it is, same stuff that Rossi gets rapped for all the time.

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You didn't bother to analyze Rossi’s claim to see if it's reasonable, not to mention consistent. I wouldn't hold you to the standard of scrutinizing Rossi’s words for a particular affect because frankly if the nuance of this "journalistic" piece got so easily past you why should I even go there?

I don't think you are spinning your words, I believe you're being honest about what you believe based on pronouncements by Rossi; which he puts there for a desired affect. It works! You're proof that it does.

So then, Rossi claimed being disrespected because Lorenzo said he was "unlucky"? (Which Lorenzo did NOT say). Oh Lord, how will you deal with the next quote then?

Circa 2006

Then came the Laguna Seca DNF. The final six races would be a second season, a chance at redemption.
"Yes, it's true," Rossi said of the time after the USGP. "When you start after a lot of victories and a lot of titles in a row, is possible have some period not at the maximum. And when you don't have the period at the maximum, arrive also the UNLUCKY." Valentino Rossi

Oh ...., Rossi is "disrespecting" Nicky Hayden! Now let's see how the Kentucky Kid responded to being openly "disrespected"!

'Even though Rossi was 51 points behind, he was still the rider Hayden feared most. "I've seen how much fight he's got and grit and how much he hates losing. I knew he was going to answer the bell and do something," Hayden said. "I've said I always thought Rossi was going to be bigger over 17 races. Even when he was that far behind, I knew he would be."


So there you have it. Nicky felt disrespected by Rossi because the Italian blamed being "unlucky" rather that giving all the credit to Hayden. Oh wait, that's not what Hayden said. He didn't go crying to the media. .... even if he had he would have lost, since y'all would have called him a whiner and a moaner. Except not Rossi, right?


So Daniboy, you base your entire assertion that 'Lorenzo started being disrespectful first' based on Rossi's feelings and a nicely place whine about it for your consumption. If Rossi perceived it in his mind, then it must be true. No wonder Rossi has been able to taint yours and millions of other's beliefs, all is required is that Rossi make his words public!

Aw Mang said:

Why is it that since Rossi came to Motogp, he has made "enemies " out of all fast riders/championship contenders while others have not? Other riders might have little spats here and there due to on track incidents but all were forgotten and good after, mostly. No continued bad bloods between each others like Rossi with biaggi, stoner, Marquez and Lorenzo. Is that because others are .... and Rossi is mother Teresa? Or other riders are just jealous of Rossi success?

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Dovi and Simoncelli springs to mind,
Seem to recall one of Dovis biggest regrets was not making up,

Jumkie said:

Hahaha, you just quoted Rog. I was best man at his wedding. Of course that was then, over the years Chop's eyes opened to the real Rossi. But that's because I could reason with Chopper. Reason & logic: can't get past it if there is nothing to work with as you can see with others around here.

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I'm capable of being reasoned with, not indoctrinated , the thing being there is no middle ground with you people, being a GP fan and liking certain riders is frowned upon here, to be accepted in this forum you need to almost prove hatred of Rossi, otherwise you are taken as brain dead or blind . Just accept that not everyone sees it your way.

Jumkie said:

Neither did Lorenzo about Rossi, yet you just tried to use an article where Rossi claims he 'felt disrespected' by Lorenzo to assert Jorge started this .... first. Where Jorge didn't even use the word "unlucky" like Rossi claimed! You posted the article and Lorenzo doesn't even use the word, it was ....... Rossi taking Lorenzo's words about his struggle with the front tire, where Rossi then said Lorenzo is disrespectful by claiming being "unlucky". Read the article you posted again. Point to where Lorenzo says he is trailing the championship because of "unluck". You're unbelievable. You take the time to cut and paste a link and you don't even get the words right!






You didn't bother to analyze Rossi’s claim to see if it's reasonable, not to mention consistent. I wouldn't hold you to the standard of scrutinizing Rossi’s words for a particular affect because frankly if the nuance of this "journalistic" piece got so easily past you why should I even go there?

I don't think you are spinning your words, I believe you're being honest about what you believe based on pronouncements by Rossi; which he puts there for a desired affect. It works! You're proof that it does.

So then, Rossi claimed being disrespected because Lorenzo said he was "unlucky"? Oh Lord, how will you deal with the next quote then?

Circa 2006

Then came the Laguna Seca DNF. The final six races would be a second season, a chance at redemption.
"Yes, it's true," Rossi said of the time after the USGP. "When you start after a lot of victories and a lot of titles in a row, is possible have some period not at the maximum. And when you don't have the period at the maximum, arrive also the UNLUCKY." Valentino Rossi

Oh ...., Rossi is "disrespecting" Nicky Hayden! Now let's see how the Kentucky Kid responded to being openly "disrespected"!

'Even though Rossi was 51 points behind, he was still the rider Hayden feared most. "I've seen how much fight he's got and grit and how much he hates losing. I knew he was going to answer the bell and do something," Hayden said. "I've said I always thought Rossi was going to be bigger over 17 races. Even when he was that far behind, I knew he would be."


So there you have it. Nicky felt disrespected by Rossi because the Italian blamed being "unlucky" rather that giving all the credit to Hayden. Oh wait, that's not what Hayden said. He didn't go crying to the media. .... even if he had he would have lost, since y'all would have called him a whiner and a moaner. Except not Rossi, right?


So Daniboy, you base your entire assertion that "Lorenzo started being disrespectful first" based on Rossi's feelings and a nicely place whine about it for your consumption. If Rossi perceived it in his mind, then it must be true. No wonder Rossi has been able to taint yours and millions of other's beliefs, all is required is that Rossi make his words public!

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Good stuff.

I was thinking, if Daniboy's assertion is that Lorenzo started it first by making a comment about being the fastest rider, shouldn't we really consider who actually started .... first?

For that, we'd have to go back to the second half of the 2007 season when Rossi was actively campaigning behind closed doors to be granted sole use of the Bridgestone tires for the 2008 season even though Yamaha had a contract with Michelin only. He finally got what he wanted, but his new teammate Jorge Lorenzo had to ride in 2008 using Michelin. That could be construed as disrespectful that Rossi instead of fighting to secure Bridgestone tires for both M1's, only fought to get himself the Bridgestone tires, and was perfectly fine with having his teammate riding at a disadvantage with the Michelin tires. Rossi believes things should be equal if he believes he is at a disadvantage, but if he thinks something will give him an advantage, he is perfectly fine with it being withheld from his teammate.

Lorenzo sat through one disrespectful insult after the next with Rossi, and Daniboy has the gall to think that Lorenzo saying he is the fastest rider somehow has besmirched Rossi's good name?

You can't make this .... up.

JPSLotus said:

Good stuff.

I was thinking, if Daniboy's assertion is that Lorenzo started it first by making a comment about being the fastest rider, shouldn't we really consider who actually started .... first?

For that, we'd have to go back to the second half of the 2007 season when Rossi was actively campaigning behind closed doors to be granted sole use of the Bridgestone tires for the 2008 season even though Yamaha had a contract with Michelin only. He finally got what he wanted, but his new teammate Jorge Lorenzo had to ride in 2008 using Michelin. That could be construed as disrespectful that Rossi instead of fighting to secure Bridgestone tires for both M1's, only fought to get himself the Bridgestone tires, and was perfectly fine with having his teammate riding at a disadvantage with the Michelin tires. Rossi believes things should be equal if he believes he is at a disadvantage, but if he thinks something will give him an advantage, he is perfectly fine with it being withheld from his teammate.

Lorenzo sat through one disrespectful insult after the next with Rossi, and Daniboy has the gall to think that Lorenzo saying he is the fastest rider somehow has besmirched Rossi's good name?

You can't make this .... up.

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It was the manner of his claims, don't forget he was 18 points behind and saying it was only bad luck that he wasn't in front. And in saying that he probably contributed to the toxic atmosphere himself, all you people only want to blame VR for that when it was most likely to be both their faults.

JPSLotus said:

Lorenzo sat through one disrespectful insult after the next with Rossi, and Daniboy has the gall to think that Lorenzo saying he is the fastest rider somehow has besmirched Rossi's good name?

You can't make this .... up.

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It reminds me of an exchange Kropo had recently. Krops appealed to fans to stop the booing. Some bloke claimed Krops should hold Lorenzo to the same standard saying Lorenzo deserved it because Jorge was being disrespectful. Then the bloke provides a link to an article where Jorge listed a few facts about his performance, like races wins, fast laps etc. Krops asks how Lorenzo was being disrespectful to Rossi. The bloke responded, it was implied because all those facts are just needle to Rossi. Hahaha, I'm not kidding. The dude actually made the case that Lorenzo pointing out a few facts of his performance was openly disrespectful to Rossi because of the implications. No, no, Lorenzo didn’t say something disrespectful about Rossi. Just like Daniboy's smoking gun asserting Lorenzo had been disrespectful "first" in an article where Lorenzo pointed out a struggle with a front tire. To which Rossi twisted to plant the narrative that Lorenzo had disrespected him by claiming Rossi’s success was only due to luck! Lorenzo didn’t even use the word "unlucky", haha. Holy .... man. No wonder everyone thinks Marquez is a cheater. Rossi said so.

Daniboy said:

It was the manner of his claims, don't forget he was 18 points behind and saying it was only bad luck that he wasn't in front. And in saying that he probably contributed to the toxic atmosphere himself, all you people only want to blame VR for that when it was most likely to be both their faults.

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Like I said, you're an ......

Jumkie said:

It reminds me of an exchange Kropo had recently. Krops appealed to fans to stop the booing. Some bloke claimed Krops should hold Lorenzo to the same standard saying Lorenzo deserved it because Jorge was being disrespectful. Then the bloke provides a link to an article where Jorge listed a few facts about his performance, like races wins, fast laps etc. Krops asks how Lorenzo was being disrespectful to Rossi. The bloke responded, it was implied because all those facts are just needle to Rossi. Hahaha, I'm not kidding. The dude actually made the case that Lorenzo pointing out a few facts of his performance was openly disrespectful to Rossi because of the implications. No, no, Lorenzo didn’t say something disrespectful about Rossi. Just like Daniboy's smoking gun asserting Lorenzo had been disrespectful "first" in an article where Lorenzo pointed out a struggle with a front tire. To which Rossi twisted to plant the narrative that Lorenzo had disrespected him by claiming Rossi’s success was only due to luck! Lorenzo didn’t even use the word "unlucky", haha. Holy .... man. No wonder everyone thinks Marquez is a cheater. Rossi said so.

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It's the cult of Jim Jones revived.

Drink the Kool-Aid, it will be good for you.

Accepting Rossi's word is the surest proof of a GP fan being a moron, when there is so much contradicting evidence about his ........ claims over the years.

CharlieParker said:

Well, being the fastest means winning: if it means something more abstract based on datas, fine, but then it's worthless. Lorenzo's pace has gained meaning last year after he was crowned champion, not before. If Rossi had won it, something which afterall has come very close to being reality, his consistency/adaptability would have been much more meaningful than Lorenzo's pace. Now, leaving all controversy aside (hopefully forever, both from Rossi lovers and haters), since Lorenzo won in 2015, we can say his pace was the defining factor of the championship.

Moral of the story is: data-based overall superior speed doesn't always mean you're the better rider. And Lorenzo has this thing where often when he loses he has to remark it to downgrade other riders (often Rossi's) performance. As much as I think reasonable Rossi fans should understand why a lot of people here have a lot of things against 46, reasonable Rossi "haters" here should understand why such repeated post-race remarks from Lorenzo are perceived as dull. They are dull, just like Rossi's "golden prince" attitude sometimes is kinda dull.

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So let me get this straight, your issue is that Lorenzo complains when issues arise where he can point out reasons which contributed to a lack of performance, as you put it "And Lorenzo has this thing where often when he loses he has to remark it to downgrade other riders (often Rossi's) performance." Which makes him particularly "dull". Is that it? Lorenzo "has this thing". Right? Your words. This is something particular to Lorenzo that irks you, something like chronic personality flaw of Lorenzo. In simple terms, Lorenzo is a whiner, moaner, etc. How unique! I've never heard anyone ever say this about Rossi’s rivals. (Sarcasm).

Let me quote an excerpt from Rossi in 06. I think you may find it interesting:

After the US GP 06

"The situation is very difficult, and today could not have been worse," he said after the race was over. "All weekend we've struggled, and we didn't find the right way to go with the setting of the bike. In the race I started to lose all grip when the problem with the TIRE began...." VR


Now compare it to Lorenzo's post race comments Daniboy posted a link:

2015

“But these are the circumstances at this moment and maybe it will change in the next rounds,” he said after the race, blaming his front TYRE for yesterdays result. JL

Eerily similar, but your perception is so opposed, why?

Sounds like they're BOTH citing the TIRE for a problem in performance, at least that's what it sound like to me.

So let's apply your standard, shall we; based on you (and Daniboy's) standard Rossi was...in your words, doing "this thing where often when he loses he has to remark it to downgrade other riders (often_________insert rival here____) performance." Wait wait, does your assertion apply to Rossi too? Perhaps you're going to now say, well Lorenzo does it more often? Perhaps Lorenzo is more 'smug' about it? What makes it more awful and distasteful, and "dull" for Lorenzo? Because Rossi smiles when talking?

Rossi has been whining and moaning for years, every time he loses (when the massive advantages were not so overwhelming that in the off chance someone was able to beat him).

Here is another thing you and Daniboy grossly gloss over, most of these "journalists" pieces are written from the perspective that when Rossi loses something went wrong for poor Rossi, but when .... goes wrong for his rivals, and they point it out, then fans like you declare his rivals as excuse making, or as you put, ____insert rival X_____ "has this thing where often when he loses he has to remark it to downgrade other riders (often Rossi's) performance."

It seems so typical that you guys (I'm lumping you in with Daniboy because both of you assert Lorenzo speaks down to Rossi) read these articles and cannot dicern the Rossi-centric bias. This to me is more fascinating than not realizing Rossi whines just as much and considerably more than those you assign the "dull" flaw.

The title of the article I quote is:

2006 RED BULL U.S. GRAND PRIX - ROSSI'S ILL-FATED MOTOGP SEASON

No, no, not Hayden's consistency to rack up a 51 point lead by riding to what the Evo RCV with chronic clutch problems would give him. Even more fascinating given your words, "his [Rossi's] consistency/adaptability would have been much more meaningful than Lorenzo's pace."

I agree, but look at this article, it wasn't written in that vein of reasoning, quite the opposite. So on one hand you say, Rossi’s consistency adaptability was far more meaningful, was it true for Hayden? On the other hand you say Lorenzo has this chronic flaw "has this thing where" he blames an issue to disparage Rossi's performance, yet here I show you an article where Rossi blames a plethora of ..... Was he showing disrespect to Hayden? Does your standard apply to Rossi as it does to Lorenzo?

http://www.sportrider.com/2006-red-bull-us-grand-prix-rossis-ill-fated-motogp-season?image=0

Now regarding the Rossi-centric bias of reporting, the perspective is: poor Rossi look at all his problems, his points deficit "wasn't entirely his fault." The author's own words! Yes, this is the theme of the piece. No different than the piece Daniboy quoted. Where Lorenzo "bemoans" (author's word) the front tire issue. To which Rossi twisted to say Lorenzo was "disrespecting" him.

It truly is fascinating how you guys can compartmentalize and create false increments to arrive at your conclusions, not only based on ........ Yellow journalism, but by Rossi's own clever words designed for affect.

CharlieParker said:

... Lorenzo's pace has gained meaning last year after he was crowned champion, not before. If Rossi had won it, something which afterall has come very close to being reality, his consistency/adaptability would have been much more meaningful than Lorenzo's pace.

...

Moral of the story is: data-based overall superior speed doesn't always mean you're the better rider. And Lorenzo has this thing where often when he loses he has to remark it to downgrade other riders (often Rossi's) performance. As much as I think reasonable Rossi fans should understand why a lot of people here have a lot of things against 46, reasonable Rossi "haters" here should understand why such repeated post-race remarks from Lorenzo are perceived as dull.

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Arrabbiata1 said:

Marco Lucchinelli on the other hand was so spawny that he was christened 'Lucky-nelli' as I recall.

But then is there such a thing as lucky Champions over the entire duration of a season?

Bitter Tottenham Hotspur fans certainly seem to think so right now.

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If we accept that luck exists, then of course lucky winners have existed also, or let us say winners who could use a little help by circumstances. Luck extending over an entire season is just more luck... That doesn't mean they didn't deserve it. Luck is an important part of success, but it can't win titles all by itself, it must be helped consistently; at the same time, without a little luck, probably some champions would not have won their titles, in spite of their merits -- that's life. In the same way we can say that a rider like Pedrosa would have deservedly also won a title like Hayden, with a little more luck.

J4rn0 said:

If we accept that luck exists, then of course lucky winners have existed also, or let us say winners who could use a little help by circumstances. Luck extending over an entire season is just more luck... That doesn't mean they didn't deserve it. Luck is an important part of success, but it can't win titles all by itself, it must be helped consistently; at the same time, without a little luck, probably some champions would not have won their titles, in spite of their merits -- that's life. In the same way we can say that a rider like Pedrosa would have deservedly also won a title like Hayden, with a little more luck.

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SNS=luck, right?