3rd Surgery For Marc...

Bern1 said:

I think there are parallels between Senna and both MM and VR actually. Leaving the god side out of it, all were so full of self belief as to think they somehow deserved to win. And be willing to put other competitors off the track if necessary in the process.

This is one major reason I preferred Prost to Senna and Lorenzo over Rossi. In the premier class, MM has showed the speed and skill to not do that as of late, he is showing progress on that score.

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I saw this over on the F1 YouTube channel the other day. It's only the beginning of the race, and the way Senna was defending against a car clearly much faster, was well....you can draw your own conclusions...



Some of those chop blocks I have to imagine being highly unsettling to have to deal with. Though that's the one thing I always marveled at with Senna was no matter how wide a track was, he knew how to shrink it down and make his car seem twice as wide. Can't say I would have enjoyed racing against him though. It does remind me quite a bit of Marquez and a younger Rossi with leaving no space for competitors.

Yup, right on the edge of “legality.” Over the edge actually. Warranted a waving blue flag. Which would have had no impact of course, even if there was no chance of it actually being shown.

I still don’t like Senna, even if I do still admire his skill.

Keshav said:

Hmmmm... I don't know. I think there's been ample evidence substantiate that theory. That Moto 2 crash that totally ...... up another rider is a pretty dramatic instance. And there's the fact that his method for finding the limits of the bike and his skill-set has been to repeatedly crash in practice, with little to no consideration for his own well-being. I thought that was egregiously bad risk management, in particular - in the early days in the premiere class when he was absolutely toying with the best riders in the field. He didn't really need to win by such dramatic margins. To me it frequently seemed that he pushed that hard just to rub it in the faces of the other riders. If Marquez had been a wee bit more mature and pragmatic, he could have won just as many championships and suffered far fewer injuries.

Stoner used to love to run away from the pack and make them all look like chumps, but it bit him in the ... a few times as well. It is of course hard to actually know, when that kind of run-away-from-pack, 14 second lead is a method of discouraging or mentally crushing competitors and when it's simply that the rider has fallen into a rhythm and locked into the zone. I tend to think it's a bit of both.

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I don't see it that way.
Find the limit in practice so as not to crash in the race.
He has done so with pretty successful results.
From a purely selfish spectator perspective watching the front end saves and the resulting ability to push the front like nobody has ever done before has been jaw dropping for me.
I have loved it and have loved the dogged will to win despite what the bike is doing, to just push through and force the bike to his will.

warthog1 said:

I don't see it that way.
Find the limit in practice so as not to crash in the race.
He has done so with pretty successful results.
From a purely selfish spectator perspective watching the front end saves and the resulting ability to push the front like nobody has ever done before has been jaw dropping for me.
I have loved it and have loved the dogged will to win despite what the bike is doing, to just push through and force the bike to his will.

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Sure, his saves during races are epic, and his finding the limit practice crashes have generally been gentle lowsides, still leaving room for bad luck once the crash occurs but not such an absurd strategy as it might seem.

This latest injury had an element of bad luck in him being hit by the bike but occurred for no good reason, he was trying to demonstrate something to FQ whom he had absolutely no chance of catching before the end of the race in a race where he had already had a warning in an early race incident which is why he had to come through the field in the first place. Iirc the major shoulder injury occurred in similar circumstances trying to demonstrate something to FQ, and was a substantial highside; I remember most of the current field and Casey Stoner who was not averse to pushing the limits himself thinking it was fairly stupid.

Keshav said:

Hmmmm... I don't know. I think there's been ample evidence substantiate that theory. That Moto 2 crash that totally ...... up another rider is a pretty dramatic instance. And there's the fact that his method for finding the limits of the bike and his skill-set has been to repeatedly crash in practice, with little to no consideration for his own well-being. I thought that was egregiously bad risk management, in particular - in the early days in the premiere class when he was absolutely toying with the best riders in the field. He didn't really need to win by such dramatic margins. To me it frequently seemed that he pushed that hard just to rub it in the faces of the other riders. If Marquez had been a wee bit more mature and pragmatic, he could have won just as many championships and suffered far fewer injuries.

Stoner used to love to run away from the pack and make them all look like chumps, but it bit him in the ... a few times as well. It is of course hard to actually know, when that kind of run-away-from-pack, 14 second lead is a method of discouraging or mentally crushing competitors and when it's simply that the rider has fallen into a rhythm and locked into the zone. I tend to think it's a bit of both.

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From memory he didn’t crash often in 2014. He hasn’t had a Bridgestone front or the best bike since then, and yet:

2013 - champion
2014 - champion
2015 - 3rd or whatever
2016 - champion
2017 - champion
2018 - champion
2019 - champion
2020 - injured

Overall his risk management ability seams reasonably adept from the comfort of my armchair, but I guess we may debate if only for ........(insert reason here) he coulda woulda shoulda won them all.

For 2020 I don’t think he was conned into anything or lacking of appreciating the risks involved. He had the chance to try and win 5 straight and 7 overall. How many riders in the history of the sport have even been in that position?

birdman said:

From memory he didn’t crash often in 2014. He hasn’t had a Bridgestone front or the best bike since then, and yet:

2013 - champion
2014 - champion
2015 - 3rd or whatever
2016 - champion
2017 - champion
2018 - champion
2019 - champion
2020 - injured

Overall his risk management ability seams reasonably adept from the comfort of my armchair, but I guess we may debate if only for ........(insert reason here) he coulda woulda shoulda won them all.

For 2020 I don’t think he was conned into anything or lacking of appreciating the risks involved. He had the chance to try and win 5 straight and 7 overall. How many riders in the history of the sport have even been in that position?

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Sure, as you have said previously even 5 straight wasn't what he was after, but rather 6 straight.

Imo he did cost himself a title in 2015 by trying to win every race as he had pretty much done in 2014, if he had settled for the position he was in when he crashed out over-riding a problematic bike arithmetically at least he would have won the the title, but again as you say his results overall speak for themselves. My issue is with the crashes which caused the major shoulder injury, and the humeral fracture this year, which were not really in pursuit of race wins, but rather a result of trying to prove a point he didn't need to prove and which he would fairly obviously, even before FQ's late season form this year, have proved in fairly short order anyway without taking risks as big as those he took which led to the crashes.

michaelm said:

Sure, his saves during races are epic, and his finding the limit practice crashes have generally been gentle lowsides, still leaving room for bad luck once the crash occurs but not such an absurd strategy as it might seem.

This latest injury had an element of bad luck in him being hit by the bike but occurred for no good reason, he was trying to demonstrate something to FQ whom he had absolutely no chance of catching before the end of the race in a race where he had already had a warning in an early race incident which is why he had to come through the field in the first place. Iirc the major shoulder injury occurred in similar circumstances trying to demonstrate something to FQ, and was a substantial highside; I remember most of the current field and Casey Stoner who was not averse to pushing the limits himself thinking it was fairly stupid.

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Meh, he is human. I don't know exactly what was going through his mind but yeah fair chance he was trying to underline his dominance even though it has been clear for all to see anyway.
I prefer it to be set with speed on the track rather than some of the fan based machinations or press comment that others have tried to use.

What was more stupid was the early return.

birdman said:

From memory he didn’t crash often in 2014. He hasn’t had a Bridgestone front or the best bike since then, and yet:

2013 - champion
2014 - champion
2015 - 3rd or whatever
2016 - champion
2017 - champion
2018 - champion
2019 - champion
2020 - injured

Overall his risk management ability seams reasonably adept from the comfort of my armchair, but I guess we may debate if only for ........(insert reason here) he coulda woulda shoulda won them all.

For 2020 I don’t think he was conned into anything or lacking of appreciating the risks involved. He had the chance to try and win 5 straight and 7 overall. How many riders in the history of the sport have even been in that position?

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No specific recollections regarding that stat in 2014 - but overall, he has been a regular crasher in FP.

Not debating whether he is talented and capable of winning championships. That's undeniable, but I do believe if he were a bit more pragmatic in assessing risk, he could have still won those years and sustained less injury. Given he didn't just win one championship and then retire, it's not a big leap in logic to assume MM wants to win multiple championships and since he didn't stop at say 6 - I think we can say he's aiming at beating Rossi's 9, and that entails longevity, and his is seriously in doubt. Hence my arm-chair critique of his racecraft/strategy in terms of his over-all objectives. In terms of demoralizing his competitors and putting on a good show for the fans, he may have sacrificed his long-term goals by over-icing the cake. Style over substance as it were.

Pretty hard for one whose style involves pushing the front over the limit to be that much more pragmatic in assessing risk imo.
He pushes so hard in practice so he is clearer where the limit is in the race.
His ability to push the front of the machine so hard is a large factor behind his dominance.

Is it possible to seperate that and still be such a force?
I am not sure that it is.
He may knock it back a bit but I just don't see it disappearing. It seems integral to his approach and style.
Yes it aint risk free, easy or safe. I don't see it disappearing entirely should he come back though.

Every multi championship rider I have watched has tried to establish dominance and hold onto it.
It is part of who they are.

Keshav said:

No specific recollections regarding that stat in 2014 - but overall, he has been a regular crasher in FP.

Not debating whether he is talented and capable of winning championships. That's undeniable, but I do believe if he were a bit more pragmatic in assessing risk, he could have still won those years and sustained less injury. Given he didn't just win one championship and then retire, it's not a big leap in logic to assume MM wants to win multiple championships and since he didn't stop at say 6 - I think we can say he's aiming at beating Rossi's 9, and that entails longevity, and his is seriously in doubt. Hence my arm-chair critique of his racecraft/strategy in terms of his over-all objectives. In terms of demoralizing his competitors and putting on a good show for the fans, he may have sacrificed his long-term goals by over-icing the cake. Style over substance as it were.

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Agreed, but this is woulda coulda shoulda.

I’m sure if you suggested to Marquez that it would be better for him to win world titles without crashing he would agree. Then he would hop on the bike and the real Marquez would tell the whimpy conservative Marquez (assuming that side of him even exists) to shut the hell up and let him get on with the business of riding the 350 KPH missile. Which perhaps is a good thing, despite the injuries. Afterall it has been proven time and time again doubt is the real enemy of a rider, once doubt creeps in it’s a case of game over.

warthog1 said:

Pretty hard for one whose style involves pushing the front over the limit to be that much more pragmatic in assessing risk imo.
He pushes so hard in practice so he is clearer where the limit is in the race.
His ability to push the front of the machine so hard is a large factor behind his dominance.

Is it possible to seperate that and still be such a force?
I am not sure that it is.
He may knock it back a bit but I just don't see it disappearing. It seems integral to his approach and style.
Yes it aint risk free, easy or safe. I don't see it disappearing entirely should he come back though.

Every multi championship rider I have watched has tried to establish dominance and hold onto it.
It is part of who they are.

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Agreed. On the spectrum I would say at one extreme we have a rider like Dovi who is highly cerebral on the bike, a thinking mans rider, while at the other extreme there is Marquez, almost purely instinctive, reliant to high degree on those cat like reflexes. Obviously he’s not thinking about it, ie I’m going to lose the front here and save it there.
In an ideal world Dovi would ride more like Marquez and vice versa. I don’t know if either can. To think back which riders had the ability to be both the most obvious would have to be Rossi.

birdman said:

Agreed. On the spectrum I would say at one extreme we have a rider like Dovi who is highly cerebral on the bike, a thinking mans rider, while at the other extreme there is Marquez, almost purely instinctive, reliant to high degree on those cat like reflexes. Obviously he’s not thinking about it, ie I’m going to lose the front here and save it there.
In an ideal world Dovi would ride more like Marquez and vice versa. I don’t know if either can. To think back which riders had the ability to be both the most obvious would have to be Rossi.

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Eddie Lawson was the ultimate cerebral rider imo. I guess Schwantz and Gardner were like MM if not as good obviously. Rossi like MM could indeed pull more out in a race when motivated, cf the famous ride after the grid penalty, while remaining cool reputedly with a heart rate not much above 100.

Perhaps the humeral fracture which was a result of a crash in a race when MM had already been doing the impossible for most of the race after his early race travails and was in his ultra hyper racing mode was an extension of his intrinsic method which is indeed what has made him close to incomparably great, but iirc the crash which caused the shoulder injury was not in such circumstances.

I go both ways on this. Sure it is carping to criticise his method even implicitly, since that method is what has made him great, perhaps even the greatest if one cares to rank riders, and 8 titles using that method is hardly shabby obviously.

On the other hand if he wants to surpass all records, and Rossi's in particular (which he most assuredly does in regard to the latter at least), he needs to ride a little longer as has been said, and he has shown an ability to temper things a little, appearing to recognise after PI 2015 that there were ways to win a race other than dominating from the start, seeming to ride for position in some races to win a title with the shoulder injury, etc. So there is an element of deliberate choice for him I believe, and even if you look at the titles he has won since 2015 he has been fairly crash free until he clinched the title then not so much for the remainder of the given season.

History indicates riders who are, for lack of a better word, more balls than brains win plenty of races but not so much world championships, yet even with that realisation still find it almost impossible to change their ways. For example Gardner one, Schwantz one, Stoner two as compared to Lawson 4, Rossi 7. Maybe the likes of Marquez 6 and Doohan 5 are either simply more talented or through experience learn to temper their desire to win at all cost, but I would have to presume they can’t turn it off completely, sometimes they have to let the dog out to play or else it just ain’t fun being cooped up all the time.

misfit said:

I was hoping this would not be the case but I've seen this sort of situation before where there's poor healing with the need for further surgery and bone grafting.

This could well be career altering unfortunately. Wrong limb is the problem. With a leg, he could do a Doohan. However, the upper limbs take a lot of force under braking.

This final procedure had better work.

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Speaking from experience, I broke my humerus arm bone in a cycling accident in the same place Marc did. Had a lot of complications and numerous operations. It was a long painful recovery to say the least. This was 8 years ago and I can honestly say it’s really effected the strength in my arm. I find especially when on my motorcycle, there is a lot of strain on it. The seating position puts a lot of forward stress on it as well under heavy breaking. Naturally my riding style needed to adjust which I found added more stress on my shoulder and fore arm. I’ve never had issues with arm pump before until after this injury and I’ve never been able to ride the same again because of it . If Marc’s recovers is anything like mine I don’t think we’ll see him win another championship again and So far it looks like his recovery has been much more difficult. Hopefully he will be ok, if not maybe a transition to F1 (if possible) would be cool to see.

Csorrenti said:

Speaking from experience, I broke my humerus arm bone in a cycling accident in the same place Marc did. Had a lot of complications and numerous operations. It was a long painful recovery to say the least. This was 8 years ago and I can honestly say it’s really effected the strength in my arm. I find especially when on my motorcycle, there is a lot of strain on it. The seating position puts a lot of forward stress on it as well under heavy breaking. Naturally my riding style needed to adjust which I found added more stress on my shoulder and fore arm. I’ve never had issues with arm pump before until after this injury and I’ve never been able to ride the same again because of it . If Marc’s recovers is anything like mine I don’t think we’ll see him win another championship again and So far it looks like his recovery has been much more difficult. Hopefully he will be ok, if not maybe a transition to F1 (if possible) would be cool to see.

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Interesting. Thanks for sharing. I'm not at all surprised by your experience in that you can ride again and live normally as 99% of the population does, but then have trouble when pushing to extremes of human tolerance and conditioning.