3rd Surgery For Marc...

Bern1 said:

It’s the golden goose thing. The show must always go on from the point of view of those who really benefit monetarily from that,

Click to expand...

I'm sure that must have played a role although IMO, the primary factor at play was MM's hunger to race and not let potential points slip by. He was already on zero points down in an unstable season with an unstable calendar because of the .....-19 pandemic.

The plate on his humerus was really long which conferred strength. However, it would have involved stripping more periosteum from the bone and hence increasing the likelihood of inadequate blood supply to the bone for healing. Perhaps they actually intended an early return but from where I sit, the writing was on the wall that the mechanics of the plating was not compatible with the sort of forces his humerus would have to put up with in race weekend conditions. I expected either the plate to loosen or to break with fatiguing.

MM's situation will likely be a wakeup reminder to riders and fans who think that a quick recovery is always the rule. Not so. Each injury is its own and like Rossi and his ageing, you simply can't overcome the body's limitations.

Marc is 100% to blame for his situation. He has always shown poor risk management skills.

The true Marquez blunder that caused lasting damage

Reading this article was rather distressing for me. If the comments follow the usual paths they do as Autosport articles typically do, MM will likely end up with another operation and be sidelined for at least another 6 months.

A colossal error was made. :russian_roulette:

Just read the article. Of course we really don't know what is going on however grim it sounds. However, it would indeed appear that "a colossal error was made," as Misfit has stated.

If this is true, it really does go right to the heart of the matter: MM, since he was so extraordinarily talented and achieved such fantastic results during the course of his career, by and by came to believe his own legend and that the natural laws of physics and chance didn't apply to him any longer, if they ever did.

We have seen this before with Senna, who famously said that God was on his side. Which was true, until it wasn't. The steering column may or may not have broken that day at Imola, but the path to disaster was set in motion by the continued risk taking as if he was some kind of uber human being.

That said, I still think that if it is humanly possible to recover from this, MM has the determination and discipline to do what it takes.

I hope he does.

Following the basic facts, it has been 5 months since the injury. That is approx 20 weeks. He could have had up to 3 different consecutive typical breaks, allow time for healing and rehab, and be back to racing in that time. IOW's, it's been a long time and the more time passes, the more clear it is we're dealing with a non-union. His trip to the Mayo Clinic to try out the new and fancy technologies to encourage healing is another sign that things aren't OK.

I personally expect an announcement regarding surgery. The delay is likely because it's now VERY scary indeed!

The last time I witnessed this sort of situation was with Robert Kubica. The difference was that Kubica's injury was severe at the outset but the understandable optimism was there. However, reality set in and it's actually amazing that he races again, although we know he hasn't ever been the same.

A bone grafting etc. will be a big set back. 6 months back after that is a generous offer as far as I'm concerned. My mind as a fan is ready come whatever. This is one time where I really hope to breath a sigh of relief and be able to see MM at his best again. :superman2:

This is how suddenly and often quite innocuously things can suddenly change, but the show must go on.

Bern1 said:

Just read the article. Of course we really don't know what is going on however grim it sounds. However, it would indeed appear that "a colossal error was made," as Misfit has stated.

If this is true, it really does go right to the heart of the matter: MM, since he was so extraordinarily talented and achieved such fantastic results during the course of his career, by and by came to believe his own legend and that the natural laws of physics and chance didn't apply to him any longer, if they ever did.

We have seen this before with Senna, who famously said that God was on his side. Which was true, until it wasn't. The steering column may or may not have broken that day at Imola, but the path to disaster was set in motion by the continued risk taking as if he was some kind of uber human being.

That said, I still think that if it is humanly possible to recover from this, MM has the determination and discipline to do what it takes.

I hope he does.

Click to expand...

Regarding Senna, I don't believe the steering column broke prior to the crash at Tamburello. While yes it was lacking structural integrity, and would have broken at some point, when it broke it was a result of hitting the wall at the angle it hit at a speed of roughly 130mph.

What did him in was trying to overdrive a car that was aerodynamically unstable. Adrian Newey who designed the FW-16 has said that the aero was a huge problem on the car. Which would also explain it's penchant for displaying understeer and oversteer on track...often on the same lap. Very difficult to drive a Formula One car at race speeds when you don't know what the car is going to do. Prior to the race, Senna warned Damon Hill to take an outside line through Tamburello because of the bumps in the inside of the corner which unsettled the car tremendously. In spite of that advice to Hill, he chose to take the inside line. Michael Schumacher said on the restart lap, Senna almost lost the car going through Tamburello but managed to save it. Of course lap 7 was a different story. When you watch the onboard video from Michael's Benetton, as Senna moves to take the inside line, everything looks normal for a moment, but then you see the floor spark from bottoming out on the bumps, then you see the car oversteer for a moment a the rear steps out, then all of a sudden the car veers straight off to the right into the wall. Onboard telemetry said that at the point the car started oversteering, Senna cut the throttle presumably in an effort to save the slide. But when the car regains grip and starts heading to the right, he got on the brakes immediately. He was able to cut the speed from 190mph to 130mph before impact. Even had the suspension arm not pierced his helmet, the basal skull fracture would have killed him. So the outcome of death was unavoidable based on the way he got the wall since the car absorbed the energy rather than it being dissipated. I've also heard from someone in the know that Senna's response to ill-handling cars going back to his days at Lotus was to lower the ride height as far as he could go. Combine that with the bumps in Tamburello as well as a to that point aerodynamically unstable car, it was a recipe for disaster at Imola. I do think the ride height of the Williams was an issue as Formula One quickly introduced the skid plank rule to all cars not too long after which essentially acted as a mandated minimum ride height rule since there were rules on how much wear the skid plank on the center line of the floor was allowed to have by the end of a grand prix.

I don't think it was so much Senna taking risks at Imola as it was a perfect storm of events from the car design to the track surface to the ride height. The steering column was a way to just lay the blame somewhere on something. Of course the outcome of that race was what it was.

Thanks JPS, that is the most cogent analysis of that event I have read.

Yes, he was overdriving the car, as he often did and got away with up to that day. This is the same thing that MM was doing on a regular basis up until that day as well. Fortunately not a fatality and he may therefore have another opportunity.

FWIW, I have never believed that the steering failed on that car prior to impact. In this case, I was trying to provide some cover for the inevitable onslaught of Senna fans wanting to point fingers at Williams for the responsibility instead of their man. Perhaps with the passing of a quarter century, this may be overly prudent on my part and entirely unnecessary on this forum.

Similarly, I imagine that with the passing of time, we may see less vitriol from the yellow horde regarding the causes of vr's diminished performance at different times, though I don't expect we're quite there yet.

Bern1 said:

Thanks JPS, that is the most cogent analysis of that event I have read.

Yes, he was overdriving the car, as he often did and got away with up to that day. This is the same thing that MM was doing on a regular basis up until that day as well. Fortunately not a fatality and he may therefore have another opportunity.

FWIW, I have never believed that the steering failed on that car prior to impact. In this case, I was trying to provide some cover for the inevitable onslaught of Senna fans wanting to point fingers at Williams for the responsibility instead of their man. Perhaps with the passing of a quarter century, this may be overly prudent on my part and entirely unnecessary on this forum.

Similarly, I imagine that with the passing of time, we may see less vitriol from the yellow horde regarding the causes of vr's diminished performance at different times, though I don't expect we're quite there yet.

Click to expand...

I think on this forum is not necessary as it's a low-trafficked site in a niche corner of the internet. I enjoyed Senna quite a bit. Fantastic racer, and the last of a particular era of F1 that's long gone now, but I still miss. That being said, I believe had he learned the most valuable lesson he should have from driving with and against Alain Prost, it would have been to collect the points if you can't win. A lesson Marc Marquez started learning after 2015 ironically, yet forgot in Jerez. If you have a questionable racing machine, just focus on bringing it home till you can get it sorted out. In Senna's car he would have still been behind Michael heading into Imola, but he would have had points instead of two DNF's.

I think in Rossi's case to your last point, since it appears to be a foregone conclusion that he'll have a team in the top class as soon as he retires, his fans are never going to leave. They'll just keep riding that train for all it's worth.

Ironically, it’s a lesson that Prost himself had to learn in 1984 with Lauda.....
They will all learn in time.
I have great hopes for the class of relative newcomers 2020 in MotoGP!

JPSLotus said:

I think on this forum is not necessary as it's a low-trafficked site in a niche corner of the internet. I enjoyed Senna quite a bit. Fantastic racer, and the last of a particular era of F1 that's long gone now, but I still miss. That being said, I believe had he learned the most valuable lesson he should have from driving with and against Alain Prost, it would have been to collect the points if you can't win. A lesson Marc Marquez started learning after 2015 ironically, yet forgot in Jerez. If you have a questionable racing machine, just focus on bringing it home till you can get it sorted out. In Senna's car he would have still been behind Michael heading into Imola, but he would have had points instead of two DNF's.

I think in Rossi's case to your last point, since it appears to be a foregone conclusion that he'll have a team in the top class as soon as he retires, his fans are never going to leave. They'll just keep riding that train for all it's worth.

Click to expand...

Yes, was watching live on TV when Senna had that crash, it was immediately obvious matters were dire, and it straight away consigned Wayne Rainey’s career ending crash to the second worst thing I had seen watching motorsport live, at that time anyway.

Whilst appreciating Senna’s ridiculous talent I was more of a fan of Proust with his more cerebral approach back then. Alain as you are no doubt aware said something rather prophetic some time before, Ayrton has a problem, he doesn’t think he can die.

Yes I remember those days....

michaelm said:

Yes, was watching live on TV when Senna had that crash, it was immediately obvious matters were dire, and it straight away consigned Wayne Rainey’s career ending crash to the second worst thing I had seen watching motorsport live, at that time anyway.

Whilst appreciating Senna’s ridiculous talent I was more of a fan of Proust with his more cerebral approach back then. Alain as you are no doubt aware said something rather prophetic some time before, Ayrton has a problem, he doesn’t think he can die.

Click to expand...

Except Proust would never have taken a flawed 07 Ducati to a championship, which makes Stoner more akin to Senna.

moto vudu said:

Marc is 100% to blame for his situation. He has always shown poor risk management skills.

Click to expand...

lame, try again Uccio, where’s the chart to prove it.

Starting to get pretty concerned that he ain't coming back at the level he was. Worried that the injury is potentially career ending too.
I hope not, as I have really enjoyed watching what he can do on a bike.

birdman said:

lame, try again Uccio, where’s the chart to prove it.

Click to expand...

Hmmmm... I don't know. I think there's been ample evidence substantiate that theory. That Moto 2 crash that totally ...... up another rider is a pretty dramatic instance. And there's the fact that his method for finding the limits of the bike and his skill-set has been to repeatedly crash in practice, with little to no consideration for his own well-being. I thought that was egregiously bad risk management, in particular - in the early days in the premiere class when he was absolutely toying with the best riders in the field. He didn't really need to win by such dramatic margins. To me it frequently seemed that he pushed that hard just to rub it in the faces of the other riders. If Marquez had been a wee bit more mature and pragmatic, he could have won just as many championships and suffered far fewer injuries.

Stoner used to love to run away from the pack and make them all look like chumps, but it bit him in the ... a few times as well. It is of course hard to actually know, when that kind of run-away-from-pack, 14 second lead is a method of discouraging or mentally crushing competitors and when it's simply that the rider has fallen into a rhythm and locked into the zone. I tend to think it's a bit of both.

michaelm said:

Yes, was watching live on TV when Senna had that crash, it was immediately obvious matters were dire, and it straight away consigned Wayne Rainey’s career ending crash to the second worst thing I had seen watching motorsport live, at that time anyway.

Whilst appreciating Senna’s ridiculous talent I was more of a fan of Proust with his more cerebral approach back then. Alain as you are no doubt aware said something rather prophetic some time before, Ayrton has a problem, he doesn’t think he can die.

Click to expand...

I think what threw people off was when the helicopter was circling over his wrecked car, and you could see his head move briefly, it created a false sense of hope for those watching on TV. But that aside, it was clear that it wasn't a "good" crash in that you felt it wasn't that bad. I feel in particular for Damon Hill because I cannot fathom the bravery it took to get back in his car for the restart not knowing if something on the car failed for Senna, and whether or not he'd be at risk too.

I remember Prost saying that. It's chilling with hindsight. My late friend was most decidedly not a fan of Senna from the beginning when he made his debut in 1984. I asked him once about it because in theory, Senna was the sort of driver he would have gravitated towards. He told me when he first saw interviews with Senna, and heard him going on about God, he said he felt that was going to be a problem. That's not meant to be a knock on anyone who believes, but rather as Alain said, it can lead to a particular mentality that puts other racers at risk...as we ultimately did see over the years with Senna.

Regarding Prost also, I always found it interesting that even though Senna was easily the best qualifier to ever drive in the sport, during races, Prost had 41 fastest laps in his career while Senna only had 19. Prost was unbelievably fast, so much to the point that people watching at the circuit couldn't understand how he was at the top of the timesheets when he appeared to do nothing that would convey that he was on a quick one. The late Denis Jenkinson for Motorsport Magazine said in 1983 at Spa that watching Prost was a rather dull proposition, yet he was by and far away the fastest man on the circuit and couldn't figure it out at all.

JPSLotus said:

I think what threw people off was when the helicopter was circling over his wrecked car, and you could see his head move briefly, it created a false sense of hope for those watching on TV. But that aside, it was clear that it wasn't a "good" crash in that you felt it wasn't that bad. I feel in particular for Damon Hill because I cannot fathom the bravery it took to get back in his car for the restart not knowing if something on the car failed for Senna, and whether or not he'd be at risk too.

I remember Prost saying that. It's chilling with hindsight. My late friend was most decidedly not a fan of Senna from the beginning when he made his debut in 1984. I asked him once about it because in theory, Senna was the sort of driver he would have gravitated towards. He told me when he first saw interviews with Senna, and heard him going on about God, he said he felt that was going to be a problem. That's not meant to be a knock on anyone who believes, but rather as Alain said, it can lead to a particular mentality that puts other racers at risk...as we ultimately did see over the years with Senna.

Regarding Prost also, I always found it interesting that even though Senna was easily the best qualifier to ever drive in the sport, during races, Prost had 41 fastest laps in his career while Senna only had 19. Prost was unbelievably fast, so much to the point that people watching at the circuit couldn't understand how he was at the top of the timesheets when he appeared to do nothing that would convey that he was on a quick one. The late Denis Jenkinson for Motorsport Magazine said in 1983 at Spa that watching Prost was a rather dull proposition, yet he was by and far away the fastest man on the circuit and couldn't figure it out at all.

Click to expand...

Yes, I was aware of that statistic. My theory was always that Alain may just have been outright faster on a clear track, but wasn't prepared to take the risks Senna did whether on a qualifying lap or on passing moves during races.

Keshav said:

Hmmmm... I don't know. I think there's been ample evidence substantiate that theory. That Moto 2 crash that totally ...... up another rider is a pretty dramatic instance. And there's the fact that his method for finding the limits of the bike and his skill-set has been to repeatedly crash in practice, with little to no consideration for his own well-being. I thought that was egregiously bad risk management, in particular - in the early days in the premiere class when he was absolutely toying with the best riders in the field. He didn't really need to win by such dramatic margins. To me it frequently seemed that he pushed that hard just to rub it in the faces of the other riders. If Marquez had been a wee bit more mature and pragmatic, he could have won just as many championships and suffered far fewer injuries.

Stoner used to love to run away from the pack and make them all look like chumps, but it bit him in the ... a few times as well. It is of course hard to actually know, when that kind of run-away-from-pack, 14 second lead is a method of discouraging or mentally crushing competitors and when it's simply that the rider has fallen into a rhythm and locked into the zone. I tend to think it's a bit of both.

Click to expand...

Jumkie dubbed him, rightly imo, murder Marc in his early days, particularly in view of the Willairot incident for which his crew who weren't teenagers at the time also bear a share of the responsibility, again imo.

I believe he has shown far more concern for his fellow riders in latter years, but after riding somewhat smarter in regard to his own well being for a time regressed to being reckless with his own safety. It didn't require oracular ability to consider this might eventually bite him, most of us on here considered it not unlikely, and the 2 recent crashes which caused the significant shoulder injury and the humeral fracture were totally unnecessary, both aimed at intimidating FQ rather than involving anything even vaguely sensible. Riding with the humeral fracture was total bad judgement, both from him and his doctors unless he totally ignored them which admittedly is entirely possible. Some doctor somewhere must have passed him fit however, which astounded misfit for one at the time.

I think there are parallels between Senna and both MM and VR actually. Leaving the god side out of it, all were so full of self belief as to think they somehow deserved to win. And be willing to put other competitors off the track if necessary in the process.

This is one major reason I preferred Prost to Senna and Lorenzo over Rossi. In the premier class, MM has showed the speed and skill to not do that as of late, he is showing progress on that score.

Bern1 said:

I think there are parallels between Senna and both MM and VR actually. Leaving the god side out of it, all were so full of self belief as to think they somehow deserved to win. And be willing to put other competitors off the track if necessary in the process.

This is one major reason I preferred Prost to Senna and Lorenzo over Rossi. In the premier class, MM has showed the speed and skill to not do that as of late, he is showing progress on that score.

Click to expand...

All these personalities will go dark under pressure. The measure of the character isn't when things are going well, but if things aren't going so well. Will they cross that 'line' in an effort to come out on top? MM has had his races and incidents in MotoGP where I wouldn't be so hasty in assuming he will no longer races with disregard for the other riders with all the sorries etc. afterwards that are of course, empty IMO, if the same thing is later repeated. His race in Argentina 2018 comes immediately to mind.

The thing is that the other riders are typically reluctant to be critical since they would be criticising a rival who is winning when they aren't. It inevitably comes across as a begrudging attitude which is exactly how VR is seen, in addition, of course, to his throwing stones in his glass house.