This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

2025 Silly Season

The engine freeze should hurt KTM and Aprilia more than Ducati.
With the budget they have and the recent improvements I could see Honda and Yamaha catching up to them by 2026.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mikesbytes
I don’t know exactly who wins and who loses from the freeze, but the idea seems clear. If engines can’t be developed beyond this year’s homologated spec, the manufacturers can make 50 engines this off season and then retool everything for the 850s.

This is significant because there are different flavors of engine redesign. The v4 engines can theoretically retain the same cylinder center line, crank and block dimensions, and just change the cylinder and cylinder head. The manufacturer could instead chose a clean sheet. The freeze appears to be a way for all competitors to go clean sheet. No need to compromise.

It’s difficult to say who wins and loses because we don’t know the strategies the teams were planning to take. Dorna just wants to make sure the 1000cc show doesn’t fall apart, and the first years of 850cc don’t look like 2002.
 
The debate about who should of got the second 2025 Ducati Factory seat will rage on for quite sometime. Paolo Campionoti has said that Ducati should of chosen Martin.
 
Martin rides for Paolo's team. Not sure that his comments ir relevant for Ducati Corse. Especially given that he has left the Mothership and charted a new course for Pramac.

Even Valentino's comments are brushed off, and his team will be the one taking over Paolo's place in the hierarchy.

As long as Gigi is happy, Ducati is happy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: warthog1
The debate about who should have got the second 2025 Ducati Factory seat will rage on for quite sometime. Paolo Campionoti has said that Ducati should have chosen Martin.
Who cares what Campinotti thinks ?. Certainly not Ducati, rightly or wrongly, at this stage in proceedings. His comments post MM rejecting Pramac also suggested MM made an informed and correct (for him at least) decision.
 
Absolutely correct. They already tried this with the 800 formula, and those bikes were quicker than the 990 bikes in short order. And whether or not these measures save money what they mostly do imo is entrench advantages, which probably leads to the team with an entrenched advantage getting more money from sponsorship etc.

Mercedes who were already better resourced than most got to have an engine power advantage in F1. And recent seasons in MotoGP as you have said previously have been significantly about how Gigi can out-engineer the engineers of other teams. If he is better he is better, I have no trouble with same per se, but he has at least partly done this by Ducati having superior aero, and I am yet to see an argument from anyone as to how aero is good for motogp, or especially how it has any application to motorcycles in general. My technical knowledge is lacking compared to many on here, but I have always thought the desmo valve gear gave them an advantage in a fuel economy formula, a fair one in that case imo given they have it on their road bikes.

Honda and Yamaha are not restricted., for what use that is in the dying 2 years of the current formula, it certainly won’t allow them several years of dominance as it has Ducati, although Yamaha at least are apparently developing a V4.
Michael you are defiantly not wrong in believing that the Desmo valve gear have given them an advantage, but it is not for fuel economy, it is all about torque and developed horse power.

To put it basically, in all the other engines the cam follow opens the valve, and they rely on a spring steel or gas, to close it.
As we go for higher rpm we need a stronger spring to ensure that the exhaust valve spring will close the valve, on valve overlap, before the piston does it with dire results.

There is a limit to how strong a spring we can use, before pulling the end off the valve, so as we go higher in rpm we have to slow the opening and the closing of the valve by using a longer ramps on the cam, this reduces the time that the valve is at full flow reducing maximum torque.

The Desmo has full mechanical control of the valve opening and closing, so it can open and close the valve very fast, hold it open longer to increase the time that it is at full flow, and continue to do it regardless of the rpm, it can maintain full flow of the inlet gas for maximum torque. This is why they produce more power and use a wider torque curve to make the bike easier to ride in wet conditions.

Unfortunately it is also why they are destroying the competitiveness of racing as we knew it. They dominate Moto1 class, WSBK, Super Stock class, now in Motocross with their 450 Desmo engine, and they will do the same in the new 850 class. Don’t know what they can do about it, as you say, they use it their sport road bikes.

There was a time when a good handling Suzuki and Yamaha with Quartararo or Rins could get around them but now the Ducati handles too well, maybe if we get rid of the aero and squats, we could just get back to who can get the most torque through the back tyre to even it out.

P's. I have nothing against Desmos, my last three bikes were Desmos.
 
Despite his win at Motegi the Chinese are pissed at Manuel Gonzalez, Gresini won't fire him but QJ Motor will likely stop sponsoring the team.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: MdubSTYLIE
Despite his win at Motegi the Chinese are pissed at Manuel Gonzalez, Gresini won't fire him but QJ Motor will likely stop sponsoring the team.
Sure - and why they're at it why not demand there be no Japanese motorcycles allowed in the championship? QJ Motors? Who the .... are they???

Cultural insensitivity? From the ........ who ran the Dali Lama out of Tibet, who daily threaten Taiwan, terrorizes Hong Kong and persecutes the Quigurs. What a joke.
 
The Desmo has full mechanical control of the valve opening and closing, so it can open and close the valve very fast, hold it open longer to increase the time that it is at full flow, and continue to do it regardless of the rpm, it can maintain full flow of the inlet gas for maximum torque. This is why they produce more power and use a wider torque curve to make the bike easier to ride in wet conditions.

Unfortunately it is also why they are destroying the competitiveness of racing as we knew it. They dominate Moto1 class, WSBK, Super Stock class, now in Motocross with their 450 Desmo engine, and they will do the same in the new 850 class. Don’t know what they can do about it, as you say, they use it their sport road bikes.
Pardon my ignorance here, is the Desmo setup proprietary at this point, if not is there any reason that any other company could not develop an engine with similar technology ?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Havey
The best part of all of this is fat white journalists on the internet educating everyone how the Japanese should treat the Chinese.

Globalization at its best.
My wife is Chinese, her mother is 95 years old and lived during the Japanese occupation of Hong Kong and Mainland China, the Japanese were brutal and ruthless with the Chinese.
 
Interesting that the quote from Pecco says it's contractual. Looks like some sharp negotiation by Jorge and his team when that contract was signed two years ago, along with some generosity from Ducati in order to keep him.
I dont think it is specific to Martin. Ducati always works like this even for GP23 any update on parts are given to all 4 bikes
 
Pardon my ignorance here, is the Desmo setup proprietary at this point, if not is there any reason that any other company could not develop an engine with similar technology ?
No David it has been used by many Auto engines over the years, but for another bike manufacturer to go that way may be admitting that they are not as good a designer as Ducati.
There are also a few other mechanical ways to do the same thing, rotary valve is one.
 
Pardon my ignorance here, is the Desmo setup proprietary at this point, if not is there any reason that any other company could not develop an engine with similar technology ?
Good question David! I had similar thoughts when I read the post so I got a little curious.
The desmo valve idea was originally thought up in 1896 but it took untill1910 to get it set up properly in something worthwhile. Mercedes adopted it in their race and sports cars in the 50s before Ducati first used it in 1956. By 1968 Ducati were using it in all their top of the range models. They took out several patents around that time which will have long since run out so I can’t see why it can’t be copied by the other manufacturers. The system does have its negatives and I can only guess that the others think they outweigh the positives?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Havey and michaelm
As I understand it reading past interviews on this matter, the advantage that Desmo has over spring valves at high RPMs has largely been negated by pneumatic valves (Which admittedly are more complex and expensive).

Ducati has always had more power and torque than anyone else, but they only started competing properly at the front once they found the grip to put that power down and also made their bike turn; both of which have more to do with Ride Shyte Devices and aero than Desmo.
 

Recent Discussions