2024 Round 21 Valencian GP of Catalunya

MdubSTYLIE said:

This coming from the same dipshit that condemned a former member for his so called alcohol and drug use. You are such a ....... hypocrite. Please shut the .... up.

To add even more hypocrisy to it, you asked me for a certain forum members address in a pm. As much as I was willing to let by gones be by gones there wasn't a chance in hell I was going to do that. Because I knew you would show those spots you are so proud of. People can change but people who are proud of even the wrongs they commit are bound to repeat their history of being a prick. You are a truly evil person Keshav.

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I’m really not interested in a flame war with you. So I won’t lower myself to childish name calling. I will say that anyone with a reading comprehension higher than that of a 9 year-old would have gleaned that there was never any condemnation of said “former member”. I was pointing out the fact that you were constantly boring us all with your blistering attacks on a 25 year old who only had one bad night making a bad decision - WHEREAS - said “former member” regularly BRAGGED on this forum about his prodigious consumption of potent alcohol and you and a few others have for years put him up on a pedestal like a god. I never “had a problem” with his use of drugs and alcohol. I never judged him for it, even when I saw him getting falling down sh*t-faced drunk at the now famous Laguna campfire - which you as a parent, would have to agree, was not setting a great example for his children who were there to witness it.

And that . . . Is the height of hypocracy. You set a double standard for you bosom buddy who by way of being a full-fledged adult with parental responsibility should necessarily be charged with setting a good example - than you do for a young single guy in his 20’s who had one single mishap.

BTW - I wanted to write to Jum to encourage him to come back to the forum, not for any “evil” purpose. I actually already have his phone number. I just wanted his address so I could write a snail mail letter rather than sending a text which feels impersonal. But now - I think that’s probably not going to happen. You have once again completely misunderstood a post and used your poor comprehension, and your constant sense of grievance, to bring on childish personal attacks to fuel yet another flame war with which to poison this forum.

#22 said:

This is just my opinion Kesh, but in a just world, the answer to all those is YES.

The reason they don't get punished, is because they make a lot of people a lot of money. I get drug tested for my job (partly because I'm working on Gov't contracts), you bet your arse I'd be fired if I tested +ve for heroin. So why should Keith Richards be any different?

It's a sad world when people think 'celebrities' should be excused for their actions. Remember when Phillip Seymour Hoffman died and everyone was pining on what a sad loss it was? I didn't. He was a ....... junkie, plain and simple. A junkie who had access to far more facilities and support networks than most poor people who are dismissed as worthless.

I'm far from perfect, but I'm morally a good person. Which makes me better than 90% of Musicians/Celebrities/Sports stars.

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And you’re entitled to your opinion. It is however misplaced, in that you make that common mistake of judging users of drugs and alcohol as being immoral. People don’t misuse substances because they’re of “poor character”. Alcoholism and drug addiction or substance abuse of any kind - is a disease, same as depression, schizophrenia etc. The idea of substance abuse as a result of low character is a concept that is as wrong and out-of-date as mistaking schizophrenia for being possessed. It’s been well established for decades in the modern medical community that substance abuse is a medical/pyschiatric disease. To write someone off as “a junkie plain and simple” - is just wrong. This is not the 1950s. We know better now.

Keshav said:

I’m really not interested in a flame war with you. So I won’t lower myself to childish name calling. I will say that anyone with a reading comprehension higher than that of a 9 year-old would have gleaned that there was never any condemnation of said “former member”. I was pointing out the fact that you were constantly boring us all with your blistering attacks on a 25 year old who only had one bad night making a bad decision - WHEREAS - said “former member” regularly BRAGGED on this forum about his prodigious consumption of potent alcohol and you and a few others have for years put him up on a pedestal like a god. I never “had a problem” with his use of drugs and alcohol. I never judged him for it, even when I saw him getting falling down sh*t-faced drunk at the now famous Laguna campfire - which you as a parent, would have to agree, was not setting a great example for his children who were there to witness it.

And that . . . Is the height of hypocracy. You have a totally different standard for you bosom buddy who by way of being a full-fledged adult with parental responsibility should necessarily be charged with setting a good example - than you do for a young single guy in his 20’s who had one single mishap.

BTW - I wanted to write to Jum to encourage him to come back to the forum, not for any “evil” purpose. I actually already have his phone number. I just wanted his address so I could write a snail mail letter rather than sending a text which feels impersonal. But now - I think that’s probably not going to happen. You have once again completely misunderstood a post and used your poor comprehension to to start with childish personal attacks to fuel yet another flame war with which to poison this forum.

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My bad. I woke up on the wrong side of the bed. I'm getting over a cold. I don't want to continue this. We need to just agree to disagree. I just want to ask one thing of you, please don't bring up former members that are not here as a result of things that happened here in the past. Its going to strike a cord with me and others who lurk and read the things said. These things happened so long ago lets leave it and the war in the past. When its brought up I am going to reply and we will just continue repeating history. I have no problem debating the thing with Pecco or not. I make jokes as a way to not let the issue be swept under the rug but I am in no way judging him strictly because of this mistake. But seriously I am done if you are done. I apologize for my last post.

MdubSTYLIE said:

My bad. I woke up on the wrong side of the bed. I'm getting over a cold. I don't want to continue this. We need to just agree to disagree. I just want to ask one thing of you, please don't bring up former members that are not here as a result of things that happened here in the past. It’s going to strike a cord with me and others who lurk and read the things said. These things happened so long ago let’s leave it and the war in the past. When it’s brought up I am going to reply and we will just continue repeating history. I have no problem debating the thing with Pecco or not. I make jokes as a way to not let the issue be swept under the rug but I am in no way judging him strictly because of this mistake. But seriously I am done if you are done. I apologize for my last post.

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Thank You - from the bottom of my heart dude. That you would be straight about this, makes you a real mensch in my eyes. I really appreciate it.
Feel better.

Keshav said:

And you’re entitled to your opinion. It is however misplaced, in that you make that common mistake of judging users of drugs and alcohol as being immoral. People don’t misuse substances because they’re of “poor character”. Alcoholism and drug addiction or substance abuse of any kind - is a disease, same as depression, schizophrenia etc. The idea of substance abuse as a result of low character is a concept that is as wrong and out-of-date as mistaking schizophrenia for being possessed. It’s been well established for decades in the modern medical community that substance abuse is a medical/pyschiatric disease. To write someone off as “a junkie plain and simple” - is just wrong. This is not the 1950s. We know better now.

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I don't make that mistake. I'm saying society does.

Rockstars, Movie Stars, Sports Stars, Famous (i.e. wealthy) people. Take your pick, they all have something in common. That is, they have the financial means to get the support they need. The fact they choose not to, makes them immoral.

Completely different to impoverished people who have no means of escape, because of lack of finances and lack of support system to help them.

Anyway, I'll get back on topic.

#22 said:

I don't make that mistake. I'm saying society does.

Rockstars, Movie Stars, Sports Stars, Famous (i.e. wealthy) people. Take your pick, they all have something in common. That is, they have the financial means to get the support they need. The fact they choose not to, makes them immoral.

Completely different to impoverished people who have no means of escape, because of lack of finances and lack of support system to help them.

Anyway, I'll get back on topic.

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Addiction is a sad thing regardless of the fame of a person. We have lost a lot of great artist and I am sure great nobodies due to addiction. It is sad. If I thought Pecco was an addict I would not make the jokes I do. I might bring it up but I wouldn't constantly make silly jokes about it. But there is nothing silly about what could have happened while he made this mistake. Its really not funny. And what urks me is that he doesn't seem to take it seriously. I am not saying it will happen but how would the people who are on the other side of my opinion feel if Pecco was caught drunk driving again?

#22 said:

I don't make that mistake. I'm saying society does.

Rockstars, Movie Stars, Sports Stars, Famous (i.e. wealthy) people. Take your pick, they all have something in common. That is, they have the financial means to get the support they need. The fact they choose not to, makes them immoral.

Completely different to impoverished people who have no means of escape, because of lack of finances and lack of support system to help them.

Anyway, I'll get back on topic.

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“Society”, which too often is led by the nose by bad science and tribal prejudice, has historically been wrong on so many things. In current day Argentina 80% of the population actually believe that its manifest destiny that the 7th son of any family (Unless the child is adopted by the president) will grow up to be a werewolf. “Society” has for centuries held that persons with dark pigmented skin are just naturally inferior. “Society” has historically been on the wrong side of history over and over again. When I spent time in Germany (what with being blond and blue eyed and of German descent) many people I met said off-the-record, that they really still loved and admired Hitler. So, you get the idea . . . Re: what I think of societal norms. Being that I consider you an open-minded person, I’d like to take the challenge to (in the friendliest manner) change your mind regarding this outdated mindset - via PM.

Keshav said:

“Society”, which too often is led by the nose by bad science and tribal prejudice, has historically been wrong on so many things. In current day Argentina 80% of the population actually believe that its manifest destiny that the 7th son of any family (Unless the child is adopted by the president) will grow up to be a werewolf. “Society” has for centuries held that persons with dark pigmented skin are just naturally inferior. “Society” has historically been on the wrong side of history over and over again. When I spent time in Germany (what with being blond and blue eyed and of German descent) many people I met said off-the-record, that they really still loved and admired Hitler. So, you get the idea . . . Re: what I think of societal norms. Being that I consider you an open-minded person, I’d like to take the challenge to (in the friendliest manner) change your mind regarding this outdated mindset - via PM.

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This post made me think of the Salem Witch Trials. I never really got into this part of history until recently. All I can say is my mind was blown. I had always thought it was a small group of women who were said to be witches and then executed. Not so. It became a systematic way to get rid of people you did not like and for authorities to grab the land of wealthy people. Accuse them of being a witch (male or female) and let it play out with kangaroo courts, keeping the accused in prison as it did. Fascinating but ghoulish stuff. Dogs were even killed for it. It was the ultimate "cancel culture" of its day. This was not even 350 years ago.

As for the morality of people suffering with substance abuse problems, one can have all the resources in the world and still find it impossible to seek help. This is what addiction does. I've spoken with people who have quit heroin and at a different time, they also quit alcohol, both cold turkey. They all say the withdrawal from alcohol is just as bad and maybe worse than heroin. Also, withdrawing cold turkey from alcohol can kill you. Not so for heroin. Benzodiazepines (Xanax and the like) can also kill you. Physical dependence and subsequent withdrawal from alcohol is hell on earth. I do not recommend it.

Keshav said:

“Society”, which too often is led by the nose by bad science and tribal prejudice, has historically been wrong on so many things. In current day Argentina 80% of the population actually believe that its manifest destiny that the 7th son of any family (Unless the child is adopted by the president) will grow up to be a werewolf. “Society” has for centuries held that persons with dark pigmented skin are just naturally inferior. “Society” has historically been on the wrong side of history over and over again. When I spent time in Germany (what with being blond and blue eyed and of German descent) many people I met said off-the-record, that they really still loved and admired Hitler. So, you get the idea . . . Re: what I think of societal norms. Being that I consider you an open-minded person, I’d like to take the challenge to (in the friendliest manner) change your mind regarding this outdated mindset - via PM.

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I appreciate the compliment. None of us are perfect after all, and nearly everyone has some form of bias.

I wholeheartedly agree with you. Again, I said Society. Not me specifically. I am well aware of the issues and stigma around substance abuse but I stress again, *I* do not share those stigmas. I'm simply pointing out that society in general acts differently to a celebrity dying of a drug overdose than they do a homeless person. It's not right, but it's fact. You nailed it with your first sentence. Society are mostly sheep and led by the nose, especially in the days of social media. It doesn't surprise me that there are people who admire Hitler, and I'm sure you'll agree that they are usually not the most educated types. It's the same type of people who crave for another large war, thinking their lives will be unaffected in the horrible ways that a war does.

PRS717 said:

This post made me think of the Salem Witch Trials. I never really got into this part of history until recently. All I can say is my mind was blown. I had always thought it was a small group of women who were said to be witches and then executed. Not so. It became a systematic way to get rid of people you did not like and for authorities to grab the land of wealthy people. Accuse them of being a witch (male or female) and let it play out with kangaroo courts, keeping the accused in prison as it did. Fascinating but ghoulish stuff. Dogs were even killed for it. It was the ultimate "cancel culture" of its day. This was not even 350 years ago.

As for the morality of people suffering with substance abuse problems, one can have all the resources in the world and still find it impossible to seek help. This is what addiction does. I've spoken with people who have quit heroin and at a different time, they also quit alcohol, both cold turkey. They all say the withdrawal from alcohol is just as bad and maybe worse than heroin. Also, withdrawing cold turkey from alcohol can kill you. Not so for heroin. Benzodiazepines (Xanax and the like) can also kill you. Physical dependence and subsequent withdrawal from alcohol is hell on earth. I do not recommend it.

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My wife and I are visiting Salem in March for this exact reason. She has long held an interest in it (far removed from the trendy Halloween gore fest) and like you said, it was simply a cancel culture of its day. They even accused a guy who had moved to another town and went all the way over there to bring him back and be executed.

The funny thing is, and this is relevant to my conversation with Kesh too, that what stopped the murders eventually was when the young girls who basically started it all overstepped their bounds, and accused a well respected upper class citizen (I can't remember his name, but he was either an Aristocrat or Judge) of being a witch. Of course they were happy to kill people they didn't like but when it came to someone high in society, suddenly they admitted it was all out of hand.

I do admire Giles Corey, the poor sod who was pressed to death. He was asked 3 times while being pressed, to enter a plea. He simply responded 'More Weight!'

#22 said:

The funny thing is, and this is relevant to my conversation with Kesh too, that what stopped the murders eventually was when the young girls who basically started it all overstepped their bounds, and accused a well respected upper class citizen (I can't remember his name, but he was either an Aristocrat or Judge) of being a witch. Of course they were happy to kill people they didn't like but when it came to someone high in society, suddenly they admitted it was all out of hand.

I do admire Giles Corey, the poor sod who was pressed to death. He was asked 3 times while being pressed, to enter a plea. He simply responded 'More Weight!'

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Oh yea, I forget the guy's name but wasn't he an upstanding guy with no history of bad behavior? The girls wanted to up their game and take down a prominent person. As is usually the case with such people, they didn't know when to quit.

Giles Corey was smart and made arrangements so they couldn't take his land. The only catch was, he had to die. I guess they wanted his land so they threatened him with being pressed to death, even though this form of execution had not been used in some time and was even back then, thought to be too much. He did not give in. I cannot even imagine such a thing.

I would also like to visit there. Please take some pics and post them if you can. Would love to see them. Unfortunately for me, I do not think my wife would enjoy such a trip. Perhaps if there was a "Real Housewives of Salem" show on Bravo.

**Sorry for the off-topic tangent.**

#22 said:

I don't make that mistake. I'm saying society does.

Rockstars, Movie Stars, Sports Stars, Famous (i.e. wealthy) people. Take your pick, they all have something in common. That is, they have the financial means to get the support they need. The fact they choose not to, makes them immoral.

Completely different to impoverished people who have no means of escape, because of lack of finances and lack of support system to help them.

Anyway, I'll get back on topic.

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Chose not to is an interesting way to put it. People in the throws of addiction are often not able to make the choice. When famous they have a bunch of hangers on that actively work to make sure they can't make that choice. The reasoning to keep them in the addiction can range from, not wanting to stop getting a free ride to being happy the person is easier to manipulate and steal money from.
I'm not sure if you are saying it or not but are you also saying doing drugs is immoral?

Back on topic. Bagania seems humble in defeat and also pointed out that when he won Martin was beside him on the podium

mikesbytes said:

Back on topic. Bagania seems humble in defeat and also pointed out that when he won Martin was beside him on the podium

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Has also said since MM won 2 titles, had a down year in 2015, then won 4 more, and that he would seek to something similar. Fair comment, and whilst respectful to MM also indicates he is not giving up either.

Wow, should have known when I saw 4 or 5 new pages on this now old race after having been away for a couple of days. Man it had everything: ancient history, morality, witches, etc. Lucky for me I read all of it. Usually when I read ancient history it’s about the Roman Empire. Good thing I got up early so I can still get some stuff done today.

I will say this: now that the season is over and Martin imo has deservedly won the title, I am looking forward to the next. I totally hope that Martin wins on the Aprilia. It would be awesome if can make a good showing in the championship.

On the Ducati side, it looks like a good matchup. I sincerely hope Pecco beats his new teammate. If on the other hand the veteran wins, I will applaud him.

Whoever wins, they had best do it fair and square or their name will be .... forever in my book. There’s some morality for you.

Have a good off season y’all.

....... censors! Is this a delicate schoolkids forum?

michaelm said:

Fair comment, and whilst respectful to MM also indicates he is not giving up either.

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Well I should hope he's not giving up. Those guys are not wired to give up. Plus, he's still going to be on the best bike. Hopefully, Marc will be what most of us expect he will be and that is highly competitive. If Marc does push Pecco to the limit and Pecco responds and comes out on top, that will speak volumes but if Pecco folds, then what? Feels to me all the pressure is on Pecco. Marc is playing with house money. His legacy is set in stone regardless. It can only get better in the twilight of his career.

PRS717 said:

Well I should hope he's not giving up. Those guys are not wired to give up. Plus, he's still going to be on the best bike. Hopefully, Marc will be what most of us expect he will be and that is highly competitive. If Marc does push Pecco to the limit and Pecco responds and comes out on top, that will speak volumes but if Pecco folds, then what? Feels to me all the pressure is on Pecco. Marc is playing with house money. His legacy is set in stone regardless. It can only get better in the twilight of his career.

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This is sort of my thought. Pecco has way more to lose than Marc does IMO. If MM somehow wins the title decisively, Pecco is going to take a huge confidence hit imo. That would put him probably on notice with Ducati. If it happened 2 seasons in a row, who knows what his future actually is. Plus there's that whole thing where Marc has never lost to a teammate. Pecco has the best chance of any of them I think though. Don't know, if it will translate into reality however.

JPSLotus said:

This is sort of my thought. Pecco has way more to lose than Marc does IMO. If MM somehow wins the title decisively, Pecco is going to take a huge confidence hit imo. That would put him probably on notice with Ducati. If it happened 2 seasons in a row, who knows what his future actually is. Plus there's that whole thing where Marc has never lost to a teammate. Pecco has the best chance of any of them I think though. Don't know, if it will translate into reality however.

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or he might thrive in that pressure which he naturally does. He f^%$ up only when he is not under pressure. I am hoping we see Malaysia/Jerez 2024 kind of races all season long next year.

Bern1 said:

....... censors! Is this a delicate schoolkids forum?

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F’ing ridiculous! It won’t even let me spell the word p*rn or s*x. The nanny state comes to the forum.

surendhar said:

or he might thrive in that pressure which he naturally does. He f^%$ up only when he is not under pressure. I am hoping we see Malaysia/Jerez 2024 kind of races all season long next year.

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Yep I don't see Marc running away with this at this stage but will be happy if I'm wrong. Pecco has been in the team for a long time and will have the working relationships sorted and be close to many of them. Backed up by him crashing whilst drunk and having it shelved or pushed into the background at worst, by the entire organisation. They don't do that for an Italian they don't like on an Italian team. He will have had significant input into the bike and understands it well I expect. He has been the fastest on it for the past 3 seasons despite missing out this year by a small margin. One less crash and he had it.
It is going to be interesting to watch. It will be very impresssive if Marc does get up on this machine that has effectively neutralised his biggest advantage he had on corner entry.