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2024 Round 21 Valencian GP of Catalunya

I still dont see it as a failure, Bagnaia will come away with the most wins, Ducati will once again be the manufactures champion. Ducati and Bagnaia have all the momentum heading into 2025. I think if you could go back in time to the start of the 24 season and offer those results to Ducati and Bagnaia, they would consider that a successful season.
 
I still dont see it as a failure, Bagnaia will come away with the most wins, Ducati will once again be the manufactures champion. Ducati and Bagnaia have all the momentum heading into 2025. I think if you could go back in time to the start of the 24 season and offer those results to Ducati and Bagnaia, they would consider that a successful season.
Do you think Bagnaia would rather have the most wins and the manufactures title or 3 wins and the championship?
 
I have long been an advocate for Bagnaia 'underperforming' given in each of his championship years, he has also had the record of number of DNF's. However. In the spirit of fairness, I will try and compare his ratio of wins to the number of races in a season with the other riders who have scored 10 wins, as we all know that now there are more races.

Bagnaia. 10 wins in 19 (feature) races so far = 52.6%
Marc Marquez (2019) - 12 wins in 18 races = 66.6%
Marc Marquez (2014) - 13 wins in 18 races = 72.2%
Casey Stoner (2007) - 10 wins in 18 races = 55.5%
Valentino Rossi (2001 & 2002) - 11 wins in 16 races = 68.8%
Mick Doohan (1997) - 12 wins in 15 races = 80%
Giacomo Agistoni (1970) - 10 wins in 11 races = 90.9%
Giacomo Agistoni (1969) - 10 wins in 12 races = 83.3%

So of those, he is considerable lower than all but Stoner in his 2007 season but then we all know he was performing miracles on that GP7.
I had to look up those Agostini seasons of pure domination.

In '60 Ago won all the races he started. Second place was Gyula Marsovszky, who took one podium that season....Alan Barnett grabbed three podiums. He started only four races that season, and finished only three.

While in '70, Ago again won every single race he started. Ginger Molloy came second, with four podiums, all second place. Angelo Bergamonti came third, yet he only started five races...

Those were the days

Btw, Ago won every race he started in the following season as well. And the season after. And in '68. In '68 he also won every race in the 350 class....


 
I had to look up those Agostini seasons of pure domination.

In '60 Ago won all the races he started. Second place was Gyula Marsovszky, who took one podium that season....Alan Barnett grabbed three podiums. He started only four races that season, and finished only three.

While in '70, Ago again won every single race he started. Ginger Molloy came second, with four podiums, all second place. Angelo Bergamonti came third, yet he only started five races...

Those were the days

Btw, Ago won every race he started in the following season as well. And the season after. And in '68. In '68 he also won every race in the 350 class....


Thats insane!
 
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I still dont see it as a failure, Bagnaia will come away with the most wins, Ducati will once again be the manufactures champion. Ducati and Bagnaia have all the momentum heading into 2025. I think if you could go back in time to the start of the 24 season and offer those results to Ducati and Bagnaia, they would consider that a successful season.
I don't totally agree. I think if he loses the #1 this yr, he's going to be on the back foot having lost the title, and having Marquez coming in to be is team mate. Of course, he will have the upper hand within Ducati at least initially, given he is ingrained within the team and knows everyone, but losing the title will hurt.
I had to look up those Agostini seasons of pure domination.

In '60 Ago won all the races he started. Second place was Gyula Marsovszky, who took one podium that season....Alan Barnett grabbed three podiums. He started only four races that season, and finished only three.

While in '70, Ago again won every single race he started. Ginger Molloy came second, with four podiums, all second place. Angelo Bergamonti came third, yet he only started five races...

Those were the days

Btw, Ago won every race he started in the following season as well. And the season after. And in '68. In '68 he also won every race in the 350 class....


The Ago domination in the 60;s was wild. But, I have heard he also had such dominant bikes in some seasons that it makes the dominance of the 2002 RC211V seem pale. I cannot verify that though.
 
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Giacomo Agistoni (1970) - 10 wins in 11 races = 90.9%
Giacomo Agistoni (1969) - 10 wins in 12 races = 83.3%
For many years there was little competition for the MV bikes, lots of cherry-picking opportunities for the MV brand to rack up the championships. I am not saying that Ago was not a great racer, but for many years he faced little competition to be honest.
 
Ok not job but hobby to break down the stats. Winning 10 races and not having the points lead is a disaster.

Yes, one could look at this as a disaster and as you posted earlier, history will have its own memory. That said, not all Pecco’s DNFs were of his doing. No doubt some are debatable and that’s racing. The glass-half-full side of me thinks having 10 (or more) wins in a season is pretty damn good. Jorge has also thrown some away and had he not thrown it away in the lead at (I forget the track...Jerez?), he’d be in even better position right now so that goes both ways.



A satellite team has never won the championship so is this the year history is made? With the passage of time and the .... I have seen with my own eyes…….... I NEVER thought I’d see……I have become somewhat cynical. I do not have my tinfoil hat on just yet but it is at the ready.
 
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Do you think Bagnaia would rather have the most wins and the manufactures title or 3 wins and the championship?
It's like asking: would you rather have 2 million dollars handed to you or 1 million dollars handed to you? Sure 2 is better then 1, but I wouldn't call having just 1 million dollars a failure. There are plenty of other riders in the paddock that would take Bagnaia's season record in a heartbeat. Martin was just a better rider on the same machine, not a massive failure by any means.
 
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It's like asking: would you rather have 2 million dollars handed to you or 1 million dollars handed to you? Sure 2 is better then 1, but I wouldn't call having just 1 million dollars a failure. There are plenty of other riders in the paddock that would take Bagnaia's season record in a heartbeat. Martin was just a better rider on the same machine, not a massive failure by any means.
Martin was not the better rider. He was the more consistent rider. The tortoise was not faster than the hare just smarter. Sure other riders could see having 10 wins as great. But they aren't a 2 time champion. Even still every rider on the grid winning 10 races and having 8 dnf's would think what if about all those dnf's. Thats a fail by any rider. It's a bigger fail by a rider that has won 2 championships and knew he could have won a 3rd with more consistency. Any rider who is not disappointed by this is not championship material.

Its not at all like being handed 2 million or 1 million dollars. Its like working your ... off for 2 mil and getting a million. Sure a million is good but for the last two years you were able to make 2 mil a year. 1 doesn't seems so great when you really were striving for 2.
 
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I would add, that while its true both riders have the most competitive bikes this year, riding them at that level means a lot more of their track time is spent at, and/or past the edge, which from all reports, have been made much more unpredictable as a result of aero and inconsistent quality control in the Michelin tires - my point being that a fair number of the DNFs were not so much a result of poor riding as they are a result of technology that can defeat even the best riders who crash for no obvious reason, despite all the post race efforts to explain the crashes. For myself, I don’t automatically assign blame to the rider for every crash. How many times do we see riders going through a turn at a relatively slow pace, not doing anything crazy, and then just BAM - go down? The quality control with tires makes for much more of a crapshoot than most people think.
 
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I don’t automatically assign blame to the rider for every crash. How many times do we see riders going through a turn at a relatively slow pace, not doing anything crazy, and then just BAM - go down?

It was clear on his latest crash (turn 9?) Pecco hit a bump at a pretty good lean angle. Now, I’m sure he knew this bump was there so is that his mistake? I guess we cannot blame anyone else but even in the slowest of turns, these guys are at the edge.
 
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It was clear on his latest crash (turn 9?) Pecco hit a bump at a pretty good lean angle. Now, I’m sure he knew this bump was there so is that his mistake? I guess we cannot blame anyone else but even in the slowest of turns, these guys are at the edge.
According to Simon Patterston, Bagnaia told him that there is a patch of new asphalt that he hit while applying the power, which he had never done at any point during the weekend before. Patterson said on the race podcast that "it was clear as day" on the helicopter shot, so I decided to look and came to conclusion that Patterson is full of .....

Here is the patch:

1731436443055.png
1731436341935.png

He was inside it, and it is significantly after that he loses it:

1731436489659.png
 
Going back to the thread topic. I personally think Bagnaia and Martin will be on their own this weekend for a few reasons.
1. People aren't going to want to get involved with them and decide the outcome of the championship
2. Last time we raced here, they were in a different league (10s ahead of 3rd placed Marquez).

Aleix Espargaro was competitive here but a lot seems to have changed with Aprilia since then.
 
According to Simon Patterston, Bagnaia told him that there is a patch of new asphalt that he hit while applying the power, which he had never done at any point during the weekend before. Patterson said on the race podcast that "it was clear as day" on the helicopter shot, so I decided to look and came to conclusion that Patterson is full of .....

I could be wrong but I thought I heard Pecco himself say he hit a bump and from one angle in super slo-mo, that is what it looked like to me. His front tyre was not stable.
 
I have long been an advocate for Bagnaia 'underperforming' given in each of his championship years, he has also had the record of number of DNF's. However. In the spirit of fairness, I will try and compare his ratio of wins to the number of races in a season with the other riders who have scored 10 wins, as we all know that now there are more races.

Bagnaia. 10 wins in 19 (feature) races so far = 52.6%
Marc Marquez (2019) - 12 wins in 18 races = 66.6%
Marc Marquez (2014) - 13 wins in 18 races = 72.2%
Casey Stoner (2007) - 10 wins in 18 races = 55.5%
Valentino Rossi (2001 & 2002) - 11 wins in 16 races = 68.8%
Mick Doohan (1997) - 12 wins in 15 races = 80%
Giacomo Agistoni (1970) - 10 wins in 11 races = 90.9%
Giacomo Agistoni (1969) - 10 wins in 12 races = 83.3%

So of those, he is considerable lower than all but Stoner in his 2007 season but then we all know he was performing miracles on that GP7.
You forgot Stoner's 2010 (10 wins in 17 races, 58,8%). Not trying to be pedantic, just adding the missing data.
 

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