2021 Circuit de Barcelona-Catalunya

Keshav said:

Well thought out post. A lot to digest. I would point out tho, that Kenny Roberts was only 25 when he was at the center of the controversy over the badly re-paved Spa circuit where he led the rider revolt, planting the seeds of his long running battle with the FIM over safety issues and low pay.

It was BTW - right around then that he broke his back while testing in Japan for Yamaha, which nearly cost him his life. And yet . . Knowing it didn’t just happen to the other guy, he came back and kicked ... for several years. That kind of single-minded purposeful ness IMHO puts these athletes in a category that isn’t so easily assessable by us mere mortals.

IIRC Lauda was, like 26 when he sustained those awful burns, and full knowing the risks, came back for more. Guys like Roberts, Doohan and Lauda could not exist in a world of strictly applied binary application of what you and I deem common sense.

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I think Kenny was a very common sense kind of guy from every interview I've watched with him even from those days which is why he recognized how piss-poor the circuit safety was in those days. Plus the old Spa was a hellacious circuit for anything to go wrong on. Trying to get the Masta Kink right whether on 2-wheels or 4-wheels was ...-puckering because you were basically aiming to not hit buildings that were right up against the track if you got your line wrong going through that section. F1 stopped racing at Spa after 1970 because the drivers had enough of it. Sports cars stopped after '73 for similar reasons IIRC. You still had guys who were fine with racing there, but more were not okay with it. Jackie Ickx still holds the all time speed record for a lap around the old Spa circuit in sports cars...163MPH and he would have kept racing there forever because he liked the danger.

Lauda, Doohan, Sheene, Roberts were definitely all cut from a different mold because they never lost their drive to win even in the spite of near death crashes. I think in Lauda's case, racers were far more aware though of the danger involved. They certainly pushed for the removal or revamping of various circuits, but it took a long, long time for the technology to catch up with the machines to make them safer for the racers. It was also appealing to the adrenaline junkies who would have been out there racing no matter how dangerous it was. I also think the aforementioned names were realists about everything they did, so they didn't go out there engaging in childish fantasies. They knew the stakes could cost them their lives if they got anything wrong, as all of them found out unfortunately. In spite of the speeds and lap times the modern GP bikes are capable of, because many of the riders only know what they've experienced, they don't generally have the constant specter of death or permanent injury looming over their shoulder the way the riders of the old days did. It makes it all the more shocking when someone is killed nowadays because from the riders to the fans, no one really expects it to happen anymore since it's an extremely infrequent occurrence.

I am surprised that nobody mentioned that there were actual fans in the grandstands. Was this the first time this season? I don't recall seeing this before in '21.

Little Walter said:

Amigo,

Of course there is always the possibility of people seeing it happen as a result of power of suggestion. But I am 99% certain I could see Fabio's leathers ballooned out on the cool down lap.

The comparison between Robert's infraction and Fabio's is not apt. One had to do with the perception of gained advantage, while the other was about safety.

Quite possibly you might be right, regarding a choice of a bike with a slight advantage, but these riders are famous for being able to make fine distinctions when it comes to in the moment, microscopic adjustments to riding style, cornering speed, angle etc. to the point that they can drop back, the way a certain Aussie did today, watch his competitor for a lap and assess his weak spots, his strong spots and the degree of degradation to the competitor's tires, and then pull out 3 tenths at will, all done at astonishing speeds. That is Watson super computer style evaluation.

23 is really mature in racing years. Like everyone else in the sport, he started out racing mini bikes before he was 10. He's seen more crashes and injuries up close and personal than any of us armchair experts.

That they ride incredibly dangerous bikes, is no indicator of poor risk assessment. They know the risk and make a choice. by way of calculated
risk, to do something ordinary mortals in their comfy recliners, would never think of doing, because they want to exceed the boundaries of quotidian lives lived by the masses. And because, they are just so good at this. Sure MM
got a little too close to the sun, but if we had all gone Nanny State on him and insist he take less risk, but then he wouldn't have amassed all those
championships. Riders don't do what they do because they don't know the risk. They do it in spite of the risk.

Look back at the history of changes in safety in this sport. Most all the big changes were pushed for by the riders. Riders know what they need. I would note too, that there were no instances of other riders speaking out about this incident, because any one of them would have done the same in Fabio's position. And that is telling.

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Mir actually spoke out, but he seems to be a self appointed part of RD this year.

The issue for me is one that many have raised, that RD seem to be part of Dorna’s sports entertainment product, to which they have co-opted one of the all time greats in Fast Freddie who was apparently in straitened circumstances to add credibility, and make arbitrary decisions based on the identity of the rider, the points situation etc rather than seeking to ensure safety or fairness, for instance tolerating all sorts of dangerous behaviour in moto 3 a week after a rider died, while policing minute track infractions. As has been said they had no hesitation in black flagging MM, possibly the finest judge of the limits of tires and best preserver of tires in gp bike racing history, cf the tire delamination race where he somehow got the worst possible tyre to the end of the race, at PI 2013.

As far as zippergate goes, as I have more or less said previously if it was his fault and a result of his fashion choices ie a liking for prancing around the pits with his leathers unzipped to his crotch then forgetting to properly secure the zipper before going out to race he probably does deserve some sort of sanction. If his airbag malfunctioned and he was managing as best as he could then not so much. If his leathers were actually ballooning while he was engaged in a tight dice for the last podium place then that probably is a safety issue and some risk to the other rider, but they didn’t seem to be while he was actually racing, and my main reaction watching live was bemusement as to what was going on.

Keshav said:

Seriously, when’s the last time anyone suffered a chest injury? And when’s the last time a rider suffered chest injury in the last three laps of the race?

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When was the last time a rider went sliding down the road or rolling through the kitty litter with his race suit unzipped down to his waist?

I don't expect to see it again.
I am happy he was not black flagged, also happy not to see it again.
I am sure Fabio knocked it back a bit and did modify the risk down.
I expect he has been informed a repeat performance will not be tolerated regardless.
I want to see this championship decided on the track and am hanging for the next installment.

Keshav said:

You needn't beg Doc. Disagreeing and arguing is free to all. It's what we do here - tho for the most part in civil fashion.

Said it a million times. Nobody "wins" these things. It's not a chess game.

Cheers,
K

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This.

I disagree with not getting a black flag, you agree with not getting a black flag.


The world still turns, suns shining, for me anyway; and all is as it was.

JPSLotus said:

He can be right about one thing and wrong about the other thing.

Happens every day with people in all walks of life.

"It's true that I put myself in danger, and also with what happened last week [to Jason Dupasquier], that [black flag] would have been the correct thing."

Remember pre-season testing at Sepang 2016 I believe it was when Loris Baz's rear tire delaminated on the main straight at 180? What would have happened to Fabio if that occurred yesterday at those speeds with his leathers hanging open? He'd be in the ICU right now getting skin grafts.

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Why are you conflating 2 separate things?

NO ONE is debating what would have happened if FQ went down.

And of course he can be right about one thing and wrong about the other thing. But the point is that he BELIEVES he is right on both accounts (or lying). Why would you trust his analysis and/or judgement on matters concerning himself?

Keshav said:

You needn't beg Doc. Disagreeing and arguing is free to all. It's what we do here - tho for the most part in civil fashion.

Said it a million times. Nobody "wins" these things. It's not a chess game.

Cheers,
K

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I don’t know that I would take misfit on in regard to a safety issue given his semi-prescience about MM.

FWIW Fabio has come out and said he should have been black flagged for his race suit.

warthog1 said:

Do you rate that as anything approaching a similar level of risk?

Fabio was the person making the risk assessment based on a risk that affected him only.
It appeared he was able to manage that risk.
I don't see him making the same choice to continue without a helmet.

I am happy he was not black flagged or DQed.
I haven't seen a similar episode before and am unlikely to see it again.

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It's not really important whether it is the same amount of risk or not. The rules are black and white on what MUST be worn and in what fashion when on the track.

He did throw his chest protector out onto the track which could have caused an issue. Going past the leathers issue which had the potential to cause skin damage of worse, what if he had crashed and broken ribs, punctured his lungs or torn his aeorta?

A torn aeorta could be just as deadly as crashing without a helmet. Things can and do happen at the kind of speeds they are at. We hope they don't but as was unfortunately proved a few weeks ago they do.

Motorsport guys don't make good risk assessments simply because motorsport in general is unsafe and if we are being honest with ourselves quite pointless. Does it really make you good at risk assessment when you decide to become involved in it? Probably not. Racers can be good at risk assessment compared to other racers but I don't think we can ever call them good at assessing the risks when they have chosen such a dangerous profession or hobby.

Keshav said:

Such an unyielding pedantic view toward an incident that clearly included extenuating circumstances is antithetical to the spirit of racing. The increase in risk factor was so minimal. Seriously, when’s the last time anyone suffered a chest injury? And when’s the last time a rider suffered chest injury in the last three laps of the race? I can’t believe any rational person would expect him to forfeit all his points because the bloody air-bag malfunctioned and wouldn’t let him breathe. You’d think he was riding around in flip-flops and no helmet. Ridiculous. What’s next? A 50,000 Euro fine for his zipper being down two inches? There needs to be room for discretionary distinctions between flagrant flouting of a rule and taking emergency measures to be able to breathe.

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Kesh,
Do you think it's quite possible that riders haven't been suffering chest injuries recently?
Jason Dupasquier had emergency chest surgery last week due to his crash and died. I would say that's pretty bloody recent mate!

Keshav said:

They tend to land on back, shoulder, knees or side: ocaisonally feet. Natural tendency of the human body when in danger is to reflexively curl into a ball. Almost never seen a rider fall on his chest. Chest protector is really to shield the heart and lungs from impact from parts of the bike (s).

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but Kesh things do happen mate. If you crash at 150mph and slide head first what are the chances that the unzipped leathers start to come down?
Without a chest plate what happens if something smashed into his chest whether it be his bike parts or someone else's.

I think we can all agree that RD is a joke and doesn't follow their own rules. .... I still remember when Rossi was allowed to continue riding in the wet back in 2016 (the race Jack Miller won) despite his tail light malfunctioning/not working when the rules in plain black and white say if the rear light doesn't work the rider will be immediately black flagged for safety reasons.

p4p1 said:

It's not really important whether it is the same amount of risk or not. The rules are black and white on what MUST be worn and in what fashion when on the track.



He did throw his chest protector out onto the track which could have caused an issue. Going past the leathers issue which had the potential to cause skin damage of worse, what if he had crashed and broken ribs, punctured his lungs or torn his aeorta?



A torn aeorta could be just as deadly as crashing without a helmet. Things can and do happen at the kind of speeds they are at. We hope they don't but as was unfortunately proved a few weeks ago they do.



Motorsport guys don't make good risk assessments simply because motorsport in general is unsafe and if we are being honest with ourselves quite pointless. Does it really make you good at risk assessment when you decide to become involved in it? Probably not. Racers can be good at risk assessment compared to other racers but I don't think we can ever call them good at assessing the risks when they have chosen such a dangerous profession or hobby.

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A torn aorta in a traumatic setting is generally caused by rapid deceleration as the heart swings off the aorta.
The chest protector is protective against penetrative injury and broken ribs by spreading the load.
Sure it can protect penetrative injury of the aorta but basically not going to stop an aortic tear as a result of declerative forces.

My point is using that comparison as an argument is comparing hugely different reduction in injury risk.
A helmet is hugely more likely to protect in high speed collision than a chest protector.

I am tipping there is no way Fabio's risk assessment would have resulted in him completing the race with no hemlet.

I disagree that their ability to assess risk is reduced. They are simply capable of addressing and managing that risk differently than mere mortals like you or I.
I will ride a fast motorcycle a damn sight slower than them as I simply don't have the skill to mitigate the risk going that fast.
Piss poor at bike control in comparison and probably far less focussed.

p4p1 said:

FWIW Fabio has come out and said he should have been black flagged for his race suit.

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He also said this;
“Congratulations to all the people that go to complain for another penalty,” he wrote.

“I put nobody in danger, like a ride says, and it was already tough for me to ride.

“But great to see the real faces of some people. Just want to thank all the people that support me and help through difficult moments. See you in the next one.”

https://www.autosport.com/motogp/ne...paign=RSS-MOTOGP&utm_term=News&utm_content=uk

I've not posted for a while, but this seemed as good a time as any to jump back in the horse.

Alpinestars have confirmed that Fabs suit/zippers were in perfect working order upon there initial investigation post race.

They have also confirmed that the airbag did not deploy.

From their Twitter account:

01) Following Sunday’s MotoGP race at the Circuit de Barcelona-Catalunya, the Alpinestars’ Racing Development team commenced an investigation into the integrity of Fabio Quartararo’s racing suit. Upon initial analysis post-race in the Alpinestars Racing Development truck... https://t.co/7lbBx2kq5r

02) located in the MotoGP paddock, the team found the suit to be in normal working order with all zippers and fasteners fully functioning. Furthermore, all the suit’s componentry, including the Tech-Air® Airbag System, was intact and fully functioning.

03) This is only a first assessment, to be further investigated once the suit is in the Alpinestars laboratory at Alpinestars headquarters, conducting all testing and analysis to understand more about the cause of what happened.

04) The Tech-Air® Airbag System did not deploy during the race, it functioned as expected, as there was not a crash situation.

warthog1 said:

He also said this;
“Congratulations to all the people that go to complain for another penalty,” he wrote.

“I put nobody in danger, like a ride says, and it was already tough for me to ride.

“But great to see the real faces of some people. Just want to thank all the people that support me and help through difficult moments. See you in the next one.”

https://www.autosport.com/motogp/ne...paign=RSS-MOTOGP&utm_term=News&utm_content=uk

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So Mir is not popular with FQ as well as JM.

Haven't posted for a while, but the nonsense about riders not landing on their chest is laughable, so I thought I might just drop this here. Several examples where riders are sliding face first along the asphalt, and these are just from recent Moto GP seasons, including
Stoners Indy highside where he landed flat on his face.

Wasnt it 1/4aros team mate who had to bail off his Yamaha at 200mph when the brakes failed recently.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N89v6Wj82lQ