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2021 Circuit de Barcelona-Catalunya

Racers are notoriously bad at risk assessment. That's why he should have been black-flagged immediately.



It didn't just affect him. He threw his chest protector out on the track in the middle of a grand prix dude. Not acceptable. What happens if someone was coming through leaned over and hit it?



Also given a rider just recently died, it's not a good look to let one of the bigger names get away with a blatant rules violation because it sends the wrong message to all riders whether in that class, or lower classes.

I would argue they are extraordinarily good at risk assessment.
The idea is to circulate over a prescribed course faster than anybody else and reach the appointed distance first.
There is an extraordinary level of risk and it is managed at every braking marker, corner exit, overtake etc etc.
In order to be able to manage that risk there needs to be an understanding and assessment of it.
It also appears some watching have assessed that risk as far more severe than others and Fabio.
 
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His airbag did not deploy. He said after the race the zipper fell down and he couldn't get it back up hence chucking the chest protector since it wasn't going to stay in an opened race suit.

All that being said, he should have either come into the pits to address it, or he should have been black-flagged. The time penalty after the race was a joke. He tossed out his chest protector onto a live track in the middle of a grand prix. Could easily have caused another rider to crash out because of that stupidity.

Race Direction is run by clueless twits at this point. There was no reason to let him stay out there. What if he went down at 150 with the leathers open? It was for his own safety to black-flag him and they did nothing of the sort. It's gotten pathetic because 8 years ago, MM was black-flagged for being one lap out of the pit stop window at Phillip Island, and a genuine safety concern arose yesterday, and they did nothing. Phillip Island 2013 was far less egregious than anything yet the decision was made there to black flag. What is the proverbial red line at this point for a black flag? They've moved the goal posts so far that you don't even know anymore. Joe Roberts got that penalty last race for being what, an inch over the white line, yet Fabio was allowed to ride for 4-5 laps with his leathers hanging open?
I am biased because I am a Jack supporter but think the first penalty was justified, if it was gravel off the track as it would have been in days gone by rather than the current surface mandated by safety concerns no way would he have kept position after that lose as has been said by many in multiple places post race so he didn’t deserve to keep his position imo.

I am undecided about the zipper thing, if it was due to the accidental deployment of a faulty airbag it is understandable he would try to make the best of things particularly that close to the end of the race as Keshav has said and as another rider has done fairly recently, but this has only been speculated and not confirmed by anyone afaik. I am perhaps biased and still tend towards the view he is a tad flaky, and if he didn’t properly fasten the zip as Luca Cadalora has apparently suggested, or just decided the chest shield was uncomfortable, then that is on him the same as if his bike wasn’t deployed sccording to the regulations with everything it was supposed to have.

What isn’t very edifying for me is if RD having made the decision to let it go during the race have bowed to pressure from social media or pressure from other teams unaffected by the incident but looking for free points have changed their decision on that kind of basis rather than more information about the cause of the unzipping. I am tiring of Joan Mir’s apparent self appointed role as part of RD.

I was a big time Jorge Lorenzo fan in 2013 but considered that it would have been grossly unfair for MM to have lost the title due to that black flag on the basis of something literally cobbled together 5 minutes before the race and not necessarily explained to his Spanish speaking crew in Spanish after a tire .... up due to not testing the tires on/allowing for the resurfaced circuit giving Carmelo the opportunity to try out a mid race tire change a la F1 which he had already thought might be a good idea to improve the spectacle iirc. The far more egregious safety issue was how and where they organised the pit entry and exit etc as I recall. I thought at the time it conveniently kept the season going for the next round.
 
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I would argue they are extraordinarily good at risk assessment.
The idea is to circulate over a prescribed course faster than anybody else and reach the appointed distance first.
There is an extraordinary level of risk and it is managed at every braking marker, corner exit, overtake etc etc.
In order to be able to manage that risk there needs to be an understanding and assessment of it.
It also appears some watching have assessed that risk as far more severe than others and Fabio.

If you offered a rider a bike that was capable of going 3/10ths a second faster than any bike on the grid, but it was extremely dangerous to ride if you get anything wrong, or you offer the rider a bike that is easier to ride, but offers no real distinct advantage over the other bikes, they'll always take option number one.

If they were so great at risk assessment, you wouldn't have a 8-times world champion purposely risking himself with crashes to find the limits of his given bike nearly every race weekend.

And here's the thing, if they were all great a risk assessment, they wouldn't be riding 220MPH motorcycles on the limit because regardless of safety protection, it's still a dangerous ....... sport. We just had a rider die in Moto 3.
 
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I am biased because I am a Jack supporter but think the first penalty was justified, if it was gravel off the track as it would have been in days gone by rather than the current surface mandated by safety concerns no way would he have kept position after that lose as has been said by many in multiple places post race so he didn’t deserve to keep his position imo.

I am undecided about the zipper thing, if it was due to the accidental deployment of a faulty airbag it is understandable he would try to make the best of things particularly that close to the end of the race as you say and has another rider has done fairly recently, but this has only been speculated and not confirmed by anyone afaik. I am perhaps biased and still tend towards the view he is a tad flaky, and if he didn’t properly fasten the zip as Luca Cadalora has apparently suggested, or just decided the chest shield was uncomfortable, then that is on him the same as if his bike wasn’t deployed sccording to the regulations with everything it was supposed to have.

What isn’t very edifying for me is if RD having made the decision to let it go during the race have bowed to pressure from social media or pressure from other teams unaffected by the incident but looking for free points have changed their decision on that kind of basis rather than more information about the cause of the unzipping. I am tiring of Joan Mir’s apparent self appointed role as part of RD.

The airbag did not deploy. The commentators thought it might have deployed, but it didn't.

Speaking before the second penalty, Quartararo said of the incident with his leathers:

"I don't know what happened. I just know that I had the leathers completely open in the first corner and I just tried to put [the zip] back in a normal position again. I couldn't do it. When [the zip] is totally down you need to stretch [the two sides together to pull the zip back up], like a zip on a pair of jeans.

"So it was difficult to ride but unfortunately it happens. Alpinestars are looking into how it's happened because at the end of the race it was possible again to close the zip [like normal]. But it's like this. It was not our day but I can be happy with this fourth position.

"I was just thinking to try to ride normally, because it's not easy to ride with the leathers open at the end of the straight, you probably just go backwards! I was just thinking to try to keep the podium alive, but anyway I had a penalty [for straight-lining Turn 2]. It's the rules but I think now it’s starting to be a little bit too much."

He couldn't get the zipper back up unless he would have stopped the bike, which he had no intention of doing because he was trying to maintain the podium position. Contrary to warthog's claim that riders are good at risk assessment, they most assuredly are not because he was willing to put his own skin at risk literally if he went down just to maintain a podium position. He should have been black-flagged. It was a legitimate safety concern, and again, chucking the chest protector out on a hot track in turn 3 was monumental stupidity. It's easy to say it's no big deal because nothing happened, but that's with hindsight. When it happened my first concern was another bike coming into the path of the discarded protector and going down.

Fabio is 23 years old. He's still very young, and doesn't have the experience or knowledge to recognize he put other riders at risk and himself at risk. That is why Race Direction should have hung out the black flag. They didn't. That is a huge problem because it means that the rules are pretty much discretionary and subject to whatever whims are floating through the heads of those at Race Direction. Not a good way to conduct grand prix motorcycle racing!
 
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Such an unyielding pedantic view toward an incident that clearly included extenuating circumstances is antithetical to the spirit of racing. The increase in risk factor was so minimal. Seriously, when’s the last time anyone suffered a chest injury? And when’s the last time a rider suffered chest injury in the last three laps of the race? I can’t believe any rational person would expect him to forfeit all his points because the bloody air-bag malfunctioned and wouldn’t let him breathe. You’d think he was riding around in flip-flops and no helmet. Ridiculous. What’s next? A 50,000 Euro fine for his zipper being down two inches? There needs to be room for discretionary distinctions between flagrant flouting of a rule and taking emergency measures to be able to breathe.

It's not pedantic. It aught to be zero tolerance as exceeding track limits, speeding in the pitlane and/or breaking other procedural rules that exist for safety or other sporting reasons.

The sky is the limit once discretion and the very nebulous 'spirit of the rules' kick in.

Zero tolerance across the board means the same for all to follow. Simple.... It's not like it will be a problem everyday and every race.
 
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His airbag did not deploy. He said after the race the zipper fell down and he couldn't get it back up hence chucking the chest protector since it wasn't going to stay in an opened race suit.

All that being said, he should have either come into the pits to address it, or he should have been black-flagged. The time penalty after the race was a joke. He tossed out his chest protector onto a live track in the middle of a grand prix. Could easily have caused another rider to crash out because of that stupidity.

Race Direction is run by clueless twits at this point. There was no reason to let him stay out there. What if he went down at 150 with the leathers open? It was for his own safety to black-flag him and they did nothing of the sort. It's gotten pathetic because 8 years ago, MM was black-flagged for being one lap out of the pit stop window at Phillip Island, and a genuine safety concern arose yesterday, and they did nothing. Phillip Island 2013 was far less egregious than anything yet the decision was made there to black flag. What is the proverbial red line at this point for a black flag? They've moved the goal posts so far that you don't even know anymore. Joe Roberts got that penalty last race for being what, an inch over the white line, yet Fabio was allowed to ride for 4-5 laps with his leathers hanging open?

Racers are notoriously bad at risk assessment. That's why he should have been black-flagged immediately.

It didn't just affect him. He threw his chest protector out on the track in the middle of a grand prix dude. Not acceptable. What happens if someone was coming through leaned over and hit it?

Also given a rider just recently died, it's not a good look to let one of the bigger names get away with a blatant rules violation because it sends the wrong message to all riders whether in that class, or lower classes.

If you offered a rider a bike that was capable of going 3/10ths a second faster than any bike on the grid, but it was extremely dangerous to ride if you get anything wrong, or you offer the rider a bike that is easier to ride, but offers no real distinct advantage over the other bikes, they'll always take option number one.

If they were so great at risk assessment, you wouldn't have a 8-times world champion purposely risking himself with crashes to find the limits of his given bike nearly every race weekend.

And here's the thing, if they were all great a risk assessment, they wouldn't be riding 220MPH motorcycles on the limit because regardless of safety protection, it's still a dangerous ....... sport. We just had a rider die in Moto 3.

The airbag did not deploy. The commentators thought it might have deployed, but it didn't.


He couldn't get the zipper back up unless he would have stopped the bike, which he had no intention of doing because he was trying to maintain the podium position. Contrary to warthog's claim that riders are good at risk assessment, they most assuredly are not because he was willing to put his own skin at risk literally if he went down just to maintain a podium position. He should have been black-flagged. It was a legitimate safety concern, and again, chucking the chest protector out on a hot track in turn 3 was monumental stupidity. It's easy to say it's no big deal because nothing happened, but that's with hindsight. When it happened my first concern was another bike coming into the path of the discarded protector and going down.

Fabio is 23 years old. He's still very young, and doesn't have the experience or knowledge to recognize he put other riders at risk and himself at risk. That is why Race Direction should have hung out the black flag. They didn't. That is a huge problem because it means that the rules are pretty much discretionary and subject to whatever whims are floating through the heads of those at Race Direction. Not a good way to conduct grand prix motorcycle racing!


Amigo,

Of course there is always the possibility of people seeing it happen as a result of power of suggestion. But I am 99% certain I could see Fabio's leathers ballooned out on the cool down lap.

The comparison between Robert's infraction and Fabio's is not apt. One had to do with the perception of gained advantage, while the other was about safety.

Quite possibly you might be right, regarding a choice of a bike with a slight advantage, but these riders are famous for being able to make fine distinctions when it comes to in the moment, microscopic adjustments to riding style, cornering speed, angle etc. to the point that they can drop back, the way a certain Aussie did today, watch his competitor for a lap and assess his weak spots, his strong spots and the degree of degradation to the competitor's tires, and then pull out 3 tenths at will, all done at astonishing speeds. That is Watson super computer style evaluation.

23 is really mature in racing years. Like everyone else in the sport, he started out racing mini bikes before he was 10. He's seen more crashes and injuries up close and personal than any of us armchair experts.

That they ride incredibly dangerous bikes, is no indicator of poor risk assessment. They know the risk and make a choice. by way of calculated
risk, to do something ordinary mortals in their comfy recliners, would never think of doing, because they want to exceed the boundaries of quotidian lives lived by the masses. And because, they are just so good at this. Sure MM
got a little too close to the sun, but if we had all gone Nanny State on him and insist he take less risk, but then he wouldn't have amassed all those
championships. Riders don't do what they do because they don't know the risk. They do it in spite of the risk.

Look back at the history of changes in safety in this sport. Most all the big changes were pushed for by the riders. Riders know what they need. I would note too, that there were no instances of other riders speaking out about this incident, because any one of them would have done the same in Fabio's position. And that is telling.
 
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Thanks Barbed!

Seems like their writing of the rule is just about as colloquial as you post!!

It galls me that it seems punishments are not codified in the rules and left to the random whimsy of Race Direction.

Yes, it is infuriating and another indication of micromanaging the rule book into something as obtuse as the tax code.

Racing rules should be clear and simple, with all including the racers and spectators able to clearly determine infringement immediately.

It is absolutely impossible to render a sport such as motorcycle roadracing completely safe.
 
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It’s about FQ’s safety. It’s not about him breaking any rules intentionally. He will wish to take the chance. He’s accustomed to risk taking and like MM and his arm, it really shouldn’t be up to the rider. Regulations are there to be followed and no one will fuss if it’s enforced for all. He should have been called in to fix his leathers. What that does is it motivates a change in the tech to avoid that sort of mishap. Safety should not be compromised. I winced watching him ride until the chequered flag. He’s a really nice fella and I’d hate to see something avoidable happen to him. Better to live to fight another day.

Yes I can understand this viewpoint as well and agree to a certain extent. I like Fabs and winced as well. At the same time and considering I still view racing as civilized warfare, there is an argument to be made that this sort of thing should not be penalized, as it endangers nobody else but that rider, who can then make the decision for himself whether to take the time to zip up the leathers or not.
 
Yes I can understand this viewpoint as well and agree to a certain extent. I like Fabs and winced as well. At the same time and considering I still view racing as civilized warfare, there is an argument to be made that this sort of thing should not be penalized, as it endangers nobody else but that rider, who can then make the decision for himself whether to take the time to zip up the leathers or not.

The safety regulations are there not only for riders endangering other riders, but also to keep the riders themselves safe .... leathers and helmet on at all times as an example of the latter. Same for medical checks after incidents and to assess fitness for riding.
 
It's not pedantic. It aught to be zero tolerance as exceeding track limits, speeding in the pitlane and/or breaking other procedural rules that exist for safety or other sporting reasons.

The sky is the limit once discretion and the very nebulous 'spirit of the rules' kick in.

Zero tolerance across the board means the same for all to follow. Simple.... It's not like it will be a problem everyday and every race.

To speak of “zero tolerance” with no provision for nuanced interpretation of the rules in exceptional circumstances, is the very definition of pedantic.

Reasonable minds reserve zero tolerance for things like child molestation, murder and nuclear warefare.

If zero tolerance for fitness issues were applied, Doohan wouldn't have won all those other championships.
If zero tolerance for medical experimentation were applied there would be no liver transplants.
 
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Yes, it is infuriating and another indication of micromanaging the rule book into something as obtuse as the tax code.

Racing rules should be clear and simple, with all including the racers and spectators able to clearly determine infringement immediately.

It is absolutely impossible to render a sport such as motorcycle roadracing completely safe.

I don't think anyone here would suggest that this is possible. :p
 
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To speak of “zero tolerance” with no provision for nuanced interpretation of the rules, is the very definition of pedantic.

I beg to differ and very much agree with disagreeing Keshav. You can take the floor on this one. I have no point to prove but an opinion to share. I think I've been clear enough.
 
Would a black flag go out if this happened to someone in the back? Most certainly it would.

Its politics, plain and simple. The show must go on.
 
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I beg to differ and very much agree with disagreeing Keshav. You can take the floor on this one. I have no point to prove but an opinion to share. I think I've been clear enough.

You needn't beg Doc. Disagreeing and arguing is free to all. It's what we do here - tho for the most part in civil fashion.

Said it a million times. Nobody "wins" these things. It's not a chess game.

Cheers,
K
 
Amigo,

Of course there is always the possibility of people seeing it happen as a result of power of suggestion. But I am 99% certain I could see Fabio's leathers ballooned out on the cool down lap.

The comparison between Robert's infraction and Fabio's is not apt. One had to do with the perception of gained advantage, while the other was about safety.

Quite possibly you might be right, regarding a choice of a bike with a slight advantage, but these riders are famous for being able to make fine distinctions when it comes to in the moment, microscopic adjustments to riding style, cornering speed, angle etc. to the point that they can drop back, the way a certain Aussie did today, watch his competitor for a lap and assess his weak spots, his strong spots and the degree of degradation to the competitor's tires, and then pull out 3 tenths at will, all done at astonishing speeds. That is Watson super computer style evaluation.

23 is really mature in racing years. Like everyone else in the sport, he started out racing mini bikes before he was 10. He's seen more crashes and injuries up close and personal than any of us armchair experts.

That they ride incredibly dangerous bikes, is no indicator of poor risk assessment. They know the risk and make a choice. by way of calculated
risk, to do something ordinary mortals in their comfy recliners, would never think of doing, because they want to exceed the boundaries of quotidian lives lived by the masses. And because, they are just so good at this. Sure MM
got a little too close to the sun, but if we had all gone Nanny State on him and insist he take less risk, but then he wouldn't have amassed all those
championships. Riders don't do what they do because they don't know the risk. They do it in spite of the risk.

Look back at the history of changes in safety in this sport. Most all the big changes were pushed for by the riders. Riders know what they need. I would note too, that there were no instances of other riders speaking out about this incident, because any one of them would have done the same in Fabio's position. And that is telling.

23 year olds aren't necessarily fully developed with their brain. Doesn't matter how long they've been racing for, Younger riders tend to be more willing to push the limits because they are young, and don't have the same risk assessment capabilities that older riders have. You didn't see too many riders that age winning in the 500cc days whether it be grands prix or world titles. The modern bikes are dominated by electronics. Sure the horsepower figures are quite enormous, but you don't have full power at all times due to the electronics however much of a step back they are from the unrestricted ECU days.

Point I'm making is two-fold, riders lack the ability to fully appreciate risk at that age, it's no different from anyone that age. I can remember being 23 and I can distinctly recall my capabilities for risk assessment were not anywhere near as good as what they are now. Just because you see crashes or experience crashes doesn't mean anything. If you have walked away from them without issue, or it happens to someone else, it's quite easy to think that it's something that happens to other people. Talk to racers who competed years ago and they'll tell you the same thing if you asked them how they continued on if they witnessed a horrific crash or fatal crash. They'll tell you it's because that's something that happens to other people, not them. Secondly, there was a huge learning curve in the 500cc days without all the electronic gizmos attached to the bikes, so you had to learn real quick to respect what can go wrong if you gave too much twist to the throttle.

The modern bikes while incredibly fast, are easier to ride in some regards. And regarding the tires, as I have stated for the last 5 seasons, the Michelin tires are ..... They force riders to manage from start to finish just like F1. It's how you create artificial parity out there; penalize anyone who tries to ride on the limit by watching their tires fall off a cliff or construct the tires to benefit certain engine designs at the expense of others. Or the reality that there are lots of murmurings that the characteristics of the tires Michelin manufactures change from batch to batch and race weekend to race weekend. Great if you like parity at the expense of everything else. I don't believe we're currently seeing anything that is representative of the best that could be fielded as a product.

The riders/drivers who pushed for safety in previous eras whether 500cc or Formula 1 all tended to be older with more experience under their belt to appreciate the risks far better than the younger competitors did. The younger guys don't tend to push for safety the same way older guys do.
 
23 year olds aren't necessarily fully developed with their brain. Doesn't matter how long they've been racing for, Younger riders tend to be more willing to push the limits because they are young, and don't have the same risk assessment capabilities that older riders have. You didn't see too many riders that age winning in the 500cc days whether it be grands prix or world titles. The modern bikes are dominated by electronics. Sure the horsepower figures are quite enormous, but you don't have full power at all times due to the electronics however much of a step back they are from the unrestricted ECU days.

Point I'm making is two-fold, riders lack the ability to fully appreciate risk at that age, it's no different from anyone that age. I can remember being 23 and I can distinctly recall my capabilities for risk assessment were not anywhere near as good as what they are now. Just because you see crashes or experience crashes doesn't mean anything. If you have walked away from them without issue, or it happens to someone else, it's quite easy to think that it's something that happens to other people. Talk to racers who competed years ago and they'll tell you the same thing if you asked them how they continued on if they witnessed a horrific crash or fatal crash. They'll tell you it's because that's something that happens to other people, not them. Secondly, there was a huge learning curve in the 500cc days without all the electronic gizmos attached to the bikes, so you had to learn real quick to respect what can go wrong if you gave too much twist to the throttle.

The modern bikes while incredibly fast, are easier to ride in some regards. And regarding the tires, as I have stated for the last 5 seasons, the Michelin tires are ..... They force riders to manage from start to finish just like F1. It's how you create artificial parity out there; penalize anyone who tries to ride on the limit by watching their tires fall off a cliff or construct the tires to benefit certain engine designs at the expense of others. Or the reality that there are lots of murmurings that the characteristics of the tires Michelin manufactures change from batch to batch and race weekend to race weekend. Great if you like parity at the expense of everything else. I don't believe we're currently seeing anything that is representative of the best that could be fielded as a product.

The riders/drivers who pushed for safety in previous eras whether 500cc or Formula 1 all tended to be older with more experience under their belt to appreciate the risks far better than the younger competitors did. The younger guys don't tend to push for safety the same way older guys do.

Well thought out post. A lot to digest. I would point out tho, that Kenny Roberts was only 25 when he was at the center of the controversy over the badly re-paved Spa circuit where he led the rider revolt, planting the seeds of his long running battle with the FIM over safety issues and low pay.

It was BTW - right around then that he broke his back while testing in Japan for Yamaha, which nearly cost him his life. And yet . . Knowing it didn’t just happen to the other guy, he came back and kicked ... for several years. That kind of single-minded purposefulness IMHO puts these athletes in a category that isn’t so easily assessable by us mere mortals.

IIRC Lauda was, like 26 when he sustained those awful burns, and full knowing the risks, came back for more. Guys like Roberts, Doohan and Lauda could not exist in a world of strictly applied binary application of what you and I deem common sense.
 
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Well... He also says he shouldn't have been penalized for the turn 1-2 shortcut in the same article... so I'm gonna say he's not the best source for validation on this debate.

Absolutely. Your can bet your sweet ... Fabio was pressured by Merigalli, Jarvis and the team PR hack to make this statement to the press. Consequences of not cowtowing to Dorna and co. are generally, increased scrutiny of any rider or team that bucks the system.
 
Well... He also says he shouldn't have been penalized for the turn 1-2 shortcut in the same article... so I'm gonna say he's not the best source for validation on this debate.

He can be right about one thing and wrong about the other thing.

Happens every day with people in all walks of life.

"It's true that I put myself in danger, and also with what happened last week [to Jason Dupasquier], that [black flag] would have been the correct thing."

Remember pre-season testing at Sepang 2016 I believe it was when Loris Baz's rear tire delaminated on the main straight at 180? What would have happened to Fabio if that occurred yesterday at those speeds with his leathers hanging open? He'd be in the ICU right now getting skin grafts.
 
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