Considering not wearing a chest shield to be dangerous is hardly an over-reaction to the recent tragic incident.
2021 Circuit de Barcelona-Catalunya
- Thread starter Keshav
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Joined Feb 2020
979 Posts | 1K+
Bendigo Vic
I believe the level of protection offered by the chest protector and the likelihood of that level of protection being required has potentially been over estimated, at least in part, due to the recent tradgedy.
There is a motorcycle thread on a cycling forum I am on.
Zipper gate is still rolling on there too.
Joined May 2019
607 Posts | 459+
Where I am.
OK
Yep.... I thought it irrelevant and sort of a strawman. Irrelevant to my own argument anyway...
I've always argued, and will maintained that this was mainly about FQ's safety that is not only HIS responsibility, as some argue.
My understanding is that there on-track safety encompasses two broad categories
- the safety of EACH rider, race team member, marshal and spectator independendently
- the prevention of riders or teams endangering each other, team members, race marshalls or fans
For this to work, all three parties do have their own responsibilities:
- Marshalls have their own safety rules to follow about going on track during race conditions.
- same for fans (who may each have their own opinion about their safety and hell would break lose if they did their own thing based on their opinion)
- riders and teams have their own responsibilities by following the safety regulations. Regulations that are in a constant state of evolution with contributions from both riders and teams.
FIM and RD also have their own responsibility and that is to ensure rules are followed, and without compromise. Once a compromise is made, it runs the risk of a bad precedent. Why compromise if there is the opportunity for a clear-cut rule that would be the same for all. Very simple IMO. This is why they enforce track limits without compromise even though we all wince at race results being determined by a wheel an inch outside the track limit only for a tiny moment.
How does ensuring race leathers are properly fastened at all times compromise racing???? How often has this been a problem anyway????
I would have thought rider safety, both at an individual and group level would be of paramount importance if compromised at a basic level. I personally wasn't even thinking of the recent fatality, but fatalities AND serious injuries overall, the latter of which, are far more common.
I would have disliked as well, to see FQ's race result compromised by his leathers coming loose in the very same way that I dislike seeing a rider sidelined for multiple races secondary to injury, or a riders race being compromised by a mechanical problem etc. We all say ah shucks, what a bummer to a mechanical failure. However, in my view, his leathers coming loose in that fashion were grounds for him immediately slowing, getting off the race line and refastening his leathers. A tough situation, but this is how it can be and it's thankfully rare.
These safety issues are contentious as always. On the one hand, there are those 'sissies' haggling on about safety, while OTOH, there are the real racers who want racing.
Agree with all of this. Have been in person at a race track in the olden days when a spectator died, hit by a wheel or something the like.
Sure, I think Valentino actually said after last week that the last 3 deaths in gp bike racing were due to a rider landing on a live track and being collected by following riders, which as he said is something which can never be eliminated from the sport. I think the two prior to those as he also said were due to hitting immovable trackside objects at speed, which can and perhaps has been addressed by safer track designs, less unforgiving barriers etc.
Yes, it is a minimal protection certainly, but better to have it, and I'm not sure what top shelf protectors are made of, foam/hard foam/slick coating to whisk away sweat would be my guess... they do pose a danger of unsettling another bike.
FQ tossing it on a hot track could easily be another penalty imo, even if he managed to get it off the line, since that clown show of exceeding track limits position swaps race we had not long ago.
Since MM may never come back full strength, it seems RD is protecting the next wunderkind, he's getting some VR-lite favoritism.
Joined Feb 2020
979 Posts | 1K+
Bendigo Vic
He threw it off the line and it expect it was retrieved by marshalls.
No idea if MM will come back to full strength.
Certainly I hope he does, as I want to see what he can do on a bike.
I don't see RD as protecting the next wonder and not interested in conspiracy tbh.
Joined Apr 2015
6K Posts | 5K+
NJ
Stoner said he should have been black-flagged. I quoted his tweet a couple of pages back.
How do you feel about that?
Joined May 2019
607 Posts | 459+
Where I am.
87 laps in testing is a good sign of basic endurance but doesn’t speak much to peak performance in race conditions. The problem is that the sport is so competitive that .2 sec off the pace even for a part of the race makes all the difference and he may require his full strength to achieve this over a full race distance.
Unlike Doohan, who injured a leg, MM is having trouble with his arm and shoulder, areas that are among the most worked in race conditions. So he may be able to compete as we are seeing, but will he be able to dominate again as he once did? I hope so but only time will tell. His competition is getting stronger as the years pass too. The Honda’s current performance isn’t helping either.
Joined May 2019
607 Posts | 459+
Where I am.
Yeah, I read this and wasn’t surprised. Stoner is like that, ie, very straight and principled. It’s this sort of POV/attitude towards racing that led to his eventual disillusionment and frustration about MotoGP. A lot is said about his having to put up with Rossi fans which is true, but from his biography, it’s clear that there was a lot that he wasn’t happy about.
Joined Apr 2015
6K Posts | 5K+
NJ
I find Casey remarkably consistent in his beliefs on proper rider behavior.
He was the one who said Rossi should have been black-flagged in 2015 without question for what he did then.
For me the whole point of black-flagging FQ was because he obviously was not going to come in to fix or attempt to fix his leathers. The decision should have been made by Race Direction because FQ was incapable of making a decision about his own safety. Michael says he doesn't want the championship decided by such an incident, but what is the big deal if it was? FQ was in blatant breach of the rules, if that caused the championship to be decided, who's fault is that? FQ's entirely. Championships have been decided because of rules breaches across multiple race series in the past. It isn't fun when that happens, but if you don't want it to occur, then you have to adhere to what the rulebook says. If you don't follow any rules, why have them since they become nothing more than suggested, but not required guidelines for on-track conduct...or even technical regulations. Yamaha should have been kicked out of the championship last year for the valve issue, instead they got a slap on the wrist.
I find Casey remarkably consistent in his beliefs on proper rider behavior.
He was the one who said Rossi should have been black-flagged in 2015 without question for what he did then.
For me the whole point of black-flagging FQ was because he obviously was not going to come in to fix or attempt to fix his leathers. The decision should have been made by Race Direction because FQ was incapable of making a decision about his own safety. Michael says he doesn't want the championship decided by such an incident, but what is the big deal if it was? FQ was in blatant breach of the rules, if that caused the championship to be decided, who's fault is that? FQ's entirely. Championships have been decided because of rules breaches across multiple race series in the past. It isn't fun when that happens, but if you don't want it to occur, then you have to adhere to what the rulebook says. If you don't follow any rules, why have them since they become nothing more than suggested, but not required guidelines for on-track conduct...or even technical regulations. Yamaha should have been kicked out of the championship last year for the valve issue, instead they got a slap on the wrist.
It would also seem that Yamaha were allowed to fix their valve issue for this year despite engines being homologated in 2020 due to the virus.
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
It’s all about context and timing. Had this occurred previous to the Dupasquier event, I don’t believe they’d have insisted on such a harsh penalty. His death created a lot of emotional sturm and drang that I believe overrode a decision should have been arrived at in a calm rational manner.
Racers and fans alike do NOT like to be reminded of the possibility of death. Especially as it allows their own sense of mortality to come to the fore.
Back in the day, I was doing a weekend at Loudon. My then wife, was a corner marshall. It was beautiful sunny weekend and everybody was having a great time. Then for some reason my wife seemed to be in a really ...... stormy moody way, for no reason. I couldn’t talk her out of her angry mood. It was only on Sunday night after the trophies were handed out and everybody was packed up and driving home that she turned to me in the van and told me that the novice rider with the Yoshimura GSXR (which he should never have been allowed to use as a novice) died from injuries sustained in his first ever practice session. Only then did I look back and recall that all the marshalls and ambulance crews had seemed weirdly grim that weekend. Not sad, but angry. All the scrutineers had seemed unreasonably picky about every little thing. They were of course stressed out at knowing what had happened, and being under orders to not divulge the fact of the kid’s death. It would cast a pal on the spectators and make all the riders, who are pretty superstitious, weirded out. I asked my wife why anger? She couldn’t put it into words, but I believe it’s a natural (tho not logical) reaction, to want to strike back at what one fears.
This is the part where I say: To make a long story short.
And you say: Too late!
IMHO - the decision to throw Fabio a three second penalty was motivated more from emotion than logic.
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Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
Having read his bio twice, it’s pretty clear that joie de vivre is not really in his wheelhouse.
Joined Apr 2015
6K Posts | 5K+
NJ
Thing is, people saying FQ shouldn't have been penalized seem to be drawing this conclusion based on the hindsight of nothing happening. If something had occurred where FQ had gone down, I'm pretty sure no one here would be saying he shouldn't have been penalized, they would instead be saying, "Why wasn't he black-flagged?"
If you don't penalize, it sets the precedent that rider gear malfunctions no longer matter, and they are free to do whatever they like should they find themselves in a situation like FQ found himself in. If something happens to that rider or riders due to negligence, what happens then? The goal posts have been moved because of the original FQ incident receiving no penalty. The fact that a rider died recently is all the more reason to be cognizant of the importance of having all of the riding gear properly secured and protective gear isn't being thrown onto a hot track when there are other riders coming.
You cannot rely on riders to make the right decision as FQ proved. If they are looking to maintain a points scoring position, or in FQ's case, a podium position, they aren't going to make a decision on their safety that impacts their finishing position. Black flag should have been put out immediately.
Joined Feb 2020
979 Posts | 1K+
Bendigo Vic
And Jorge said he was right to continue and shouldn't have been sanctioned in any way for the suit.
Joined Apr 2015
6K Posts | 5K+
NJ
Jorge also disregarded his own safety and chose to ride with some pretty serious injuries during his career.
Joined Dec 2020
147 Posts | 196+
Germany
Black flag for everything pisses me of, same with safety car coming out for every little reason. Kills all the Action and (amongst too little overtaking) made me stop watching F1 entirely.
A race has something wild and pure to it, if stuff like that happens, so be it. It's those crazy circumstances that brings the spice. I remember one in Moto3 in Assen having a highside in the last lap last corner chicane but safed it, hanging next to his bike going through the finish line. Perhaps it says somewhere in the bloody rulebook that you need to sit on your bike and have Full control over it and that guy should have been Black flagged too. Black flag my ...
The only good Thing about the penalty was Making the championship closer and more exciting
A race has something wild and pure to it, if stuff like that happens, so be it. It's those crazy circumstances that brings the spice. I remember one in Moto3 in Assen having a highside in the last lap last corner chicane but safed it, hanging next to his bike going through the finish line. Perhaps it says somewhere in the bloody rulebook that you need to sit on your bike and have Full control over it and that guy should have been Black flagged too. Black flag my ...
The only good Thing about the penalty was Making the championship closer and more exciting
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Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
That my friend is an observation that applies to probably 70 percent of all racers at some time in their career. Stoner rode not fully healed, Cappirossi sure did, Roberts too. Schwantz was absolutely infamous for riding injured. I remember at one weekend a guy I sometimes crewed for, Tony Gioa, a week after collar bone surgery, raced with the pin from his collar bone sticking out through a hole cut in his leathers. He won the AMAARR Superbike championship that year. The guys who win stuff are hard core about the “Live Free Or Die” mindset. You got to commit.
Joined Apr 2015
6K Posts | 5K+
NJ
Exactly why those administering the sport are supposed to be the adults in the room since the riders are always going to make decisions based on what lets them be out there regardless of whatever injuries they have suffered, or push the limits of whatever is in the rulebook or out right break the limits. They'll all disregard better judgment in order to get on a bike.
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