Yamaha - weird events

Keshav · Oct 11, 2018

RCV600RR said:
All the top riders got them, and SNS were only available for European rounds. If you want to get a sense of how they would've performed, look at the races outside Europe at the time. The same riders dominated.

What you gloss over is, that the rubber for all those who got SNSs - was compounded to suit specs that suited a chosen rider; his choice of carcass etc, all intended to compliment one rider's body weight, braking style, cornering style, chassis and so on. You don't think Carmelo told Michelin whose specs to follow? There are king-makers in any sport that earns in the millions. It's been like that since there were gladiators in the coliseum.

RCV600RR · Oct 11, 2018

What you gloss over is that everything you wrote is an invention, unless you actually have some proof other than "it makes sense to me".

Anyway, he jumped on the Bridgestones in 2008 and pretty quickly started smashing the field again (including the Ducati, for whom the tyres were custom built since 2003!).

Barbedwirebikerr · Oct 11, 2018

On a side note, I'm rolling laughing.

I also passed my motorcycle license, and have ridden many bikes.

RedBull should let me loan the RCV.

michaelm · Oct 11, 2018

RCV600RR said:
All the top riders got them, and SNS were only available for European rounds. If you want to get a sense of how they would've performed, look at the races outside Europe at the time. The same riders dominated.

I don’t have a problem with Rossi’s “advantages”, he operated under the same paradigm as all the greats before him, and he like his predecessors got whatever advantages he had by being the number 1 rider, he didn’t become the best rider because he had “advantages”.

What I did object to was the whining from Rossi fans about Hayden in 2006 and Stoner in 2007 having supposed advantages given Rossi had always had good equipment.

synn · Oct 11, 2018

RCV600RR said:
All the top riders got them, and SNS were only available for European rounds. If you want to get a sense of how they would've performed, look at the races outside Europe at the time. The same riders dominated.

This.

Michelin only did SNS for rounds where they could transport them by road from France. And the same guys won everywhere outside Europe.

michaelm · Oct 11, 2018

Keshav said:
What you gloss over is, that the rubber for all those who got SNSs - was compounded to suit specs that suited a chosen rider; his choice of carcass etc, all intended to compliment one rider's body weight, braking style, cornering style, chassis and so on. You don't think Carmelo told Michelin whose specs to follow? There are king-makers in any sport that earns in the millions. It's been like that since there were gladiators in the coliseum.

Michelin played favourites long before Rossi or Carmelo. I recall some talk in his last years on Michelins in the non-control tyre era that Rossi thought they were favouring HRC.

Keshav · Oct 12, 2018

RCV600RR said:
What you gloss over is that everything you wrote is an invention, unless you actually have some proof other than "it makes sense to me".

Anyway, he jumped on the Bridgestones in 2008 and pretty quickly started smashing the field again (including the Ducati, for whom the tyres were custom built since 2003!).

One would have to be willfully blindered or painfully naïve to believe any championship with that much money riding on it is decided strictly on merit. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck.... This isn't about any vast conspiracy. It's a question of basic human nature and the impulse to business practices that support the bottom line.

As to the Bridgestones, you gloss over the well-known fact that shortly after they became available to Rossi, Stoner stated that he wished he could work with Michelin because the B-Stones were no longer tailored to the idiosyncratic Ducati that handled like a tank with a Mercury missile up its ....

This isn't about Rossi per se: as Mike has pointed out this has been the way of the sport long before Carmelo or Rossi entered it.

RCV600RR · Oct 12, 2018

Keshav said:
One would have to be willfully blindered or painfully naïve to believe any championship with that much money riding on it is decided strictly on merit. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck.... This isn't about any vast conspiracy. It's a question of basic human nature and the impulse to business practices that support the bottom line.

If you think Rossi is bigger than HRC (especially during that period), you're very mistaken.

There is no way that Michelin would build a Rossi-Yamaha tyre without enraging HRC, who supported most of the good bikes on the grid at the time. HRC doesn't come to MotoGP, and spend $100 million plus to finish second to Rossi because Dorna thinks it's cool. As Mike points out, the opposite was likely true - that Michelin appeared to be favoring HRC (and Rossi complained about the same when his Michelins kept having defects (chunking, etc.) whereas the Hondas never had an issue). I

Considering the counterfactual - that Dorna was manipulating Michelin (lol) - if anything, the best TV is where two rivals are very closely matched and are battling tooth and nail, not when Rossi is smashing the field with ease.

Keshav said:
As to the Bridgestones, you gloss over the well-known fact that shortly after they became available to Rossi, Stoner stated that he wished he could work with Michelin

Source, please.

If you think Bridgestone could make its tyres Rossi-specific within six months after having being developed around the Ducati since 2003, you don't understand tyre development timelines.

Keshav · Oct 12, 2018

RCV600RR said:
If you think Rossi is bigger than HRC (especially during that period), you're very mistaken.

There is no way that Michelin would build a Rossi-Yamaha tyre without enraging HRC, who supported most of the good bikes on the grid at the time. HRC doesn't come to MotoGP, and spend $100 million plus to finish second to Rossi because Dorna thinks it's cool. As Mike points out, the opposite was likely true - that Michelin appeared to be favoring HRC (and Rossi complained about the same when his Michelins kept having defects (chunking, etc.) whereas the Hondas never had an issue). I

Considering the counterfactual - that Dorna was manipulating Michelin (lol) - if anything, the best TV is where two rivals are very closely matched and are battling tooth and nail, not when Rossi is smashing the field with ease.

.

Source, please.

If you think Bridgestone could make its tyres Rossi-specific within six months after having being developed around the Ducati since 2003, you don't understand tyre development timelines.

Fortunes change. When it was advantageous to favor HRC - that would be when favor would be applied. Loyalties are fluid in the biz world.

Can't find a link. Others here will confirm it. Was widely reported in the press. I don't seem to have the right search terms to find the quote.

6 months = half a year. Moreover - it's not like the awarding of the contract was sprung on Bridgestone a week before the season started. They had plenty of time to formulate new tires. It was a fait accompli long before they finally put their signature to the contract.

RCV600RR · Oct 12, 2018

Keshav said:
Fortunes change. When it was advantageous to favor HRC - that would be when favor would be applied. Loyalties are fluid in the biz world.

Funny how your story keeps changing.

Keshav said:
Can't find a link. Others here will confirm it. Was widely reported in the press. I don't seem to have the right search terms to find the quote.

Maybe your memory is faulty? I recall that you said that Misano wasn't on the MotoGP calendar, so I'll need links.

Keshav said:
Moreover - it's not like the awarding of the contract was sprung on Bridgestone a week before the season started. They had plenty of time to formulate new tires. It was a fait accompli long before they finally put their signature to the contract.

So, before Rossi and Yamaha had tested the Bridgestones, they were already changing their construction to suit Rossi? We're entering the realm of the fantastical now!

Tyres aren't like changing a cake recipe. There are certain fundamental characteristics of each manufacturer's tyres which cannot be altered without serious, sustained and careful work. To suggest that Bridgestone changed its tyres for Rossi without a Yamaha even having been equipped with a set, in six month (after spending its entire MotoGP history developing its tyre around Ducati) demonstrates that you need to read more about the nature and timelines associated with tyre development.

Keshav · Oct 12, 2018

RCV600RR said:
Funny how your story keeps changing.

Maybe your memory is faulty? I recall that you said that Misano wasn't on the MotoGP calendar, so I'll need links.

So, before Rossi and Yamaha had tested the Bridgestones, they were already changing their construction to suit Rossi? We're entering the realm of the fantastical now!

Tyres aren't like changing a cake recipe. There are certain fundamental characteristics of each manufacturer's tyres which cannot be altered without serious, sustained and careful work. To suggest that Bridgestone changed its tyres for Rossi without a Yamaha even having been equipped with a set, in six month (after spending its entire MotoGP history developing its tyre around Ducati) demonstrates that you need to read more about the nature and timelines associated with tyre development.

Story never changed. Michelin was free to favor any rider they thought would bring the most glory,

Nothing wrong with my memory. Misano was a momentary mis-speak. I don't make stuff out of thin air. I stand by my statement.

If Michelin could make custom tires overnight, wtf would B-Stone not be able to do same in 6 months?

RCV600RR · Oct 12, 2018

Keshav said:
If Michelin could make custom tires overnight, wtf would B-Stone not be able to do same in 6 months?

I'm sincerely not trying to be rude, but this comment is a rather striking example of how little you understand about the tyre development and manufacture process in Grand Prix racing. If you think what Michelin was doing overnight (putting together a tyre with existing compound and/or carcass options to suit the temperature and adhesion conditions, essentially) is the same as what it takes to adapt a tyre to a completely different motorcycle at a grand prix level (which would require the (extremely expensive and time-consuming) development and creation of different carcasses and compounds combinations based on massive data and rider inputs, and complex attempts to interpret those inputs into engineering solutions, testing the same, gathering feedback, attending to quality control, etc.), then there's really no use discussing this issue with you until you research more about this topic.

synn · Oct 12, 2018

To be fair, Kurryfart is the same guy who thought Stoner won two championships with Ducati and that there was no Motogp race at Misano this year. He’s an expert at everything he talks about.

...in his mind.

Keshav · Oct 12, 2018

RCV600RR said:
I'm sincerely not trying to be rude, but this comment is a rather striking example of how little you understand about the tyre development and manufacture process in Grand Prix racing. If you think what Michelin was doing overnight (putting together a tyre with existing compound and/or carcass options to suit the temperature and adhesion conditions, essentially) is the same as what it takes to adapt a tyre to a completely different motorcycle at a grand prix level (which would require the (extremely expensive and time-consuming) development and creation of different carcasses and compounds combinations based on massive data and rider inputs, and complex attempts to interpret those inputs into engineering solutions, testing the same, gathering feedback, attending to quality control, etc.), then there's really no use discussing this issue with you until you research more about this topic.

They start with a base tire, designed to suit the new bikes and input general parameters that suit the bike of choice, and make refinements as needed. If those base compounds formulations were so wildly incompatible, needing years of research and teams of alchemists in black robes with electron microscope eyes, how do you explain Rossi (mid-season no less) being able to jump on the pre-spec B-Stones, and be competitive right away, as soon as he made the switch??? It's science, not black magic. Data is something these companies are not short of, tho the distillation and employment of the data despite stats and sophisticated computer models is more a process of elimination than people would like to believe.

I never worked in MotoGP but I was a racer and team manager for a moderately successful endurance team, and part of my job was researching and selecting which slicks, in what compounds were used for the team. I was regularly in contact with reps from the Michelin, Metzler and Dunlop factories to get the facts. Back then - internet experts were not a thing, still aren't.

synn · Oct 12, 2018

Keshav said:
They start with a base tire, designed to suit the new bikes and input general parameters that suit the bike of choice, and make refinements as needed. If those base compounds formulations were so wildly incompatible, needing years of research and teams of alchemists in black robes with electron microscope eyes, how do you explain Rossi (mid-season no less) being able to jump on the B-Stones, and be competitive right away, as soon as he made the switch??? It's science, not black magic.

I never worked in MotoGP but I was team manager for a moderately successful endurance team, and part of my job was researching and selecting which slicks, in what compounds were used for the team. I was regularly in contact with reps from the Michelin and Dunlop factories to get the facts. Back then - internet experts were not a thing, still aren't.

Even WSBK riders can’t figure out MotoGP tyres without significant first hand experience. Let alone your backyard raving championship.
You don’t know ..... Stop this self importance charade. If you have links to prove your allegations, post them. Else, go back to curry munching.

povol · Oct 12, 2018

RCV600RR said:
If you think Rossi is bigger than HRC (especially during that period), you're very mistaken.

There is no way that Michelin would build a Rossi-Yamaha tyre without enraging HRC, who supported most of the good bikes on the grid at the time. HRC doesn't come to MotoGP, and spend $100 million plus to finish second to Rossi because Dorna thinks it's cool. As Mike points out, the opposite was likely true - that Michelin appeared to be favoring HRC (and Rossi complained about the same when his Michelins kept having defects (chunking, etc.) whereas the Hondas never had an issue). I

Considering the counterfactual - that Dorna was manipulating Michelin (lol) - if anything, the best TV is where two rivals are very closely matched and are battling tooth and nail, not when Rossi is smashing the field with ease.

Source, please.

If you think Bridgestone could make its tyres Rossi-specific within six months after having being developed around the Ducati since 2003, you don't understand tyre development timelines.

Stoner and Ducati DID request a switch to Michelin instead of going to a spec tire because Duc was designed around a specific construction tire and when it went single supplier they knew the tire would no longer be designed with the Duc in mind. They were turned down and the spec tire was the choice.

michaelm · Oct 12, 2018

RCV600RR said:
I'm sincerely not trying to be rude, but this comment is a rather striking example of how little you understand about the tyre development and manufacture process in Grand Prix racing. If you think what Michelin was doing overnight (putting together a tyre with existing compound and/or carcass options to suit the temperature and adhesion conditions, essentially) is the same as what it takes to adapt a tyre to a completely different motorcycle at a grand prix level (which would require the (extremely expensive and time-consuming) development and creation of different carcasses and compounds combinations based on massive data and rider inputs, and complex attempts to interpret those inputs into engineering solutions, testing the same, gathering feedback, attending to quality control, etc.), then there's really no use discussing this issue with you until you research more about this topic.

I think it can go both ways.

Sure Rossi had to adapt to the Bridgestones, there was plenty of stuff at the time about how he had to change his riding style and bike set-up/front rear balance to incorporate elements of Stoner's style and set-up. This would mean Jorge who had spent his rookie year on Michelins and was rather competitive against Rossi in 2009 was disadvantaged btw.

It is more than possible that Bridgestone stopped specifically developing for Ducati for the 2008 season though imo, particularly with the control tyre coming in 2009, of which I somehow don't remember them being informed the day after the last race of the 2008 season. Certainly when a control tyre was about to be mandated Ducati said they would prefer to start again with Michelin rather than have a Bridgestone control tyre, and later, as early as 2010 iirc, publicly said that the control tyre was a significant reason why their bike no longer worked and that their woes could be resolved by a suitable tyre. There was also considerable talk in 2008 (admittedly substantially from Lex, another great former poster on here, I can't recall if he provided any links) that the complex asymmetric multi-surface tyre specifically co-developed by Bridgestone with Ducati was withdrawn in the 2008 season as a precursor to the control tyre.

I actually was the one who pointed out that there were no SNS tyres for the fly-away rounds in an earlier discussion, and also in this thread that there was talk, which I found credible, that Rossi thought Michelin were going away from him towards the end of the SNS tyre era (as a corollary this would mean that they had suited him more previously btw). It is a matter of historical fact however that HRC don't always get their way with tyres, cf the first riders' vote in 2012 (the 2017 vote being the second) which removed the tyre favored by HRC and Stoner, concerning which Nakamoto and Stoner complained fairly vociferously, Stoner correctly as it eventuated on durability/safety grounds.

povol · Oct 13, 2018

michaelm said:
I think it can go both ways.

Sure Rossi had to adapt to the Bridgestones, there was plenty of stuff at the time about how he had to change his riding style and bike set-up/front rear balance to incorporate elements of Stoner's style and set-up. This would mean Jorge who had spent his rookie year on Michelins and was rather competitive against Rossi in 2009 was disadvantaged btw.

It is more than possible that Bridgestone stopped specifically developing for Ducati for the 2008 season though imo, particularly with the control tyre coming in 2009, of which I somehow don't remember them being informed the day after the last race of the 2008 season. Certainly when a control tyre was about to be mandated Ducati said they would prefer to start again with Michelin rather than have a Bridgestone control tyre, and later, as early as 2010 iirc, publicly said that the control tyre was a significant reason why their bike no longer worked and that their woes could be resolved by a suitable tyre. There was also considerable talk in 2008 (admittedly substantially from Lex, another great former poster on here, I can't recall if he provided any links) that the complex asymmetric multi-surface tyre specifically co-developed by Bridgestone with Ducati was withdrawn in the 2008 season as a precursor to the control tyre.

I actually was the one who pointed out that there were no SNS tyres for the fly-away rounds in an earlier discussion, and also in this thread that there was talk, which I found credible, that Rossi thought Michelin were going away from him towards the end of the SNS tyre era (as a corollary this would mean that they had suited him more previously btw). It is a matter of historical fact however that HRC don't always get their way with tyres, cf the first riders' vote in 2012 (the 2017 vote being the second) which removed the tyre favored by HRC and Stoner, concerning which Nakamoto and Stoner complained fairly vociferously, Stoner correctly as it eventuated on durability/safety grounds.

Yea, Casey said in pre season testing the 2012 RCV was the best bike he had ever ridden , then the tire changed just weeks before the season started and it totally threw the bike out of kilter . It took the better part of the first half of the season to find the balance. There is no doubt in my mind had Casey not shredded his ankle at Indy he wins the title going away.

BarryMachine · Oct 13, 2018

povol said:
Yea, Casey said in pre season testing the 2012 RCV was the best bike he had ever ridden , then the tire changed just weeks before the season started and it totally threw the bike out of kilter . It took the better part of the first half of the season to find the balance. There is no doubt in my mind had Casey not shredded his ankle at Indy he wins the title going away.

And they had to add weight to the Honda.

RCV600RR · Oct 13, 2018

povol said:
Stoner and Ducati DID request a switch to Michelin instead of going to a spec tire because Duc was designed around a specific construction tire and when it went single supplier they knew the tire would no longer be designed with the Duc in mind. They were turned down and the spec tire was the choice.

I recall that. Ducati, by their own admission, wanted its own tyre manufacturer dedicated to it because it considered it hard to compete against the Japanese on a level playing field. Suppo drove this.

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