Yamaha extends Rossi contract to 2018

Arrabbiata1 said:

It was precisely that...

So, these factors considered and in the interest of safety, let's introduce a formula that encourages significantly higher corner speeds.

Clever clever DORNA.

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Which led to Pedrosa shattering the top speed record at the time held by Tamada on a big bore RCv. Bikes got faster in every aspect The real clever ones are the engineers of these machines, they are incredible.You lay out technical regulations designed to decrease performance, in hardly no time they have increased performance. Who would have dreamed that with electronics being set back 10 years {Rossi's words} and a new tire, we would see the fastest Qatar race ever run, race lap record shattered, and top speed record blown into the weeds. They are the unsung hero's of GP.

Arrabbiata1 said:

I simply didn't say that HRC made the V5 with Rossi's name on it. Read my posts J4rn0. I said that once he was signed to Honda he was directly in line to ride it and not Criville, who wasn't in the plan.

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I do. This is what you wrote:
".....there was a cosy seat being prepared on a revolutionary V5 motorcycle, possibly the finest racing machine that HRC ever built and it had someone's name on it. Clue, it wasn't Alex Criville."

My contention is that the new RC211V didn't have any name on it -- Rossi wrote his name on it with his results. Criville ruled himself out with his lack of results. And there were other riders besides Rossi who got on that dream machine anyway, until eventually it did win a title without the hated #46.

Jumkie said:

1) J4rn0, you remind me of Talpa...............
......................
2) It's interesting that you selectively believe in conspiracy theories, in this regard you remind me of MigsAngel. .......................
3) But you can't possibly accept that Rossi was the chosen one when Honda influenced a formula change to 990s?
..........................
4) So let's recap: J................!

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1) Jum, seriously, who on this earth cares who I remind you of...?
2) I don't, that's your field. And anyway, again -- who cares who I remind you of...?
3) Even ignoring the fact that Rossi didn't want n(or need) that change, it's a very creative theory. Bravo!

4) Yeah sure Jums, go on with your "recaps" -- if you repeat them enough times, maybe you'll convince someone else besides yourself -- maybe even me, just keep repeating. :giggle:

J4rn0 said:

1) Jum, seriously, who on this earth cares who I remind you of...?
2) I don't, that's your field. And anyway, again -- who cares who I remind you of...?
3) Even ignoring the fact that Rossi didn't want n(or need) that change, it's a very creative theory. Bravo!

4) Yeah sure Jums, go on with your "recaps" -- if you repeat them enough times, maybe you'll convince someone else besides yourself -- maybe even me, just keep repeating. :giggle:

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I agree with most of what you have argued on this thread J4rn0.

Rossi performed fantastically well in 2000 in his rookie year particularly given this was on a 500, and it would have been creditable whether he was on a full factory or quasi-factory bike. His first 5 championships involved the usual advantages which accrue to, and are arguably earned by, the top rider as with similar riders such as Doohan before him, and involved no conspiracies. When he had the immense bike advantage in 2003 as a consequence of being the number one HRC rider he promptly departed for Yamaha the next year, shaking the dust from his feet. That was a brave move and the 2004 championship a great achievement, although he was part (very likely the most important part) of a concerted effort by Yamaha rather than jumping on a bike that was little different to the 2003 bike.

I don't see that any conspiracies were involved in the 2009 championship either. In 2008 if he did get the Bridgestone tyres by strong-arming Dorna with threats of immediate retirement, then that is an example of him having undue influence and involves a degree of conspiracy, but there isn't and in all likelihood will never be any proof of this, and at worst he ended up on the same tyre as Stoner and out-rode him anyway, and hence deserved the title. Only if they took away Stoner's/Ducati's preferred tyre, in regard to which I am again unaware that any proof exists, would I place any caveats on the 2008 title win.

I am with Jumkie in regard to the end of season 2015 events however. It was a gross display of both petulance and entitlement imo, and a naked attempt to influence events through off track means utilising his power in the media and with his fanbase.

J4rn0 said:

I do. This is what you wrote:
".....there was a cosy seat being prepared on a revolutionary V5 motorcycle, possibly the finest racing machine that HRC ever built and it had someone's name on it. Clue, it wasn't Alex Criville."

My contention is that the new RC211V didn't have any name on it -- Rossi wrote his name on it with his results. Criville ruled himself out with his lack of results. And there were other riders besides Rossi who got on that dream machine anyway, until eventually it did win a title without the hated #46.

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I don't hate the number 46, but if it helps you to believe the contrary, you are more than at liberty to do so.

Once again then; In its inception, no the V5 was not built for any particular rider - however the recruitment of Rossi and the creation of his own team comprising Doohan's old crew was a project which if successful was to culminate in the RCV211v. Of course this was dependent upon results, but Rossi was hired on long term potential. One year to learn, one to win. It was very unlikely given the increasing and exponential level of technical support in tandem with Valentino's formidable talent and that these would not be forthcoming. Irrespective of Criville's poor performance, the long term plan was to place Valentino Rossi on that V5 motorcycle as opposed to Criville - and yeah, from mid 2000 that seat had a reservation on it. Had for the sake of argument, Alex Criville secured the world title or at least challenged KRjr for it and subsequently remained a contender, even finished above Rossi in 2001, then Tohru Ukawa wouldn't have even been within a sniff of the polini exhaust system byond testing - and again Criville would have found himself remaining in Orange leathers largely by default. There were two bikes remember? - one of which was always going to Rossi bar some unforeseen catastrophe, the other in the event went to Rossi's old also ran which in the view of HRC, was preferable to Criville.

Which links nicely to the next point - and is precisely why you on occasions appear as uncritically accepting, biased and subjective as the next adoring Rossi fan...

J4rn0 said:

And there were other riders besides Rossi who got on that dream machine anyway, until eventually it did win a title without the hated #46.

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I think you'll find that the number 46 is far from 'hated' being a bigger brand than MotoGP itself - at least in the eyes of the rider in question and through the millions of yellow tined spectacles across the globe.

I digress, we are talking of comparative advantage remember? Nicky Hayden secured his title in 2006 one of the most competitive years racing on record - where the likes of Barros and Biaggi had all previously failed. Perhaps they would have faired better in 2002 'racing' against half a grid full of then defunct two strokes on a machine that had race wins written on it before it even came out of the crate. Christ, even Ukawa won a GP and remember what happened when Barros inherited one at Motegi and Valencia where the playing field was briefly levelled.

2003? - let's just not go there.

michaelm said:

I agree with most of what you have argued on this thread J4rn0.

Rossi performed fantastically well in 2000 in his rookie year particularly given this was on a 500, and it would have been creditable whether he was on a full factory or quasi-factory bike. His first 5 championships involved the usual advantages which accrue to, and are arguably earned by, the top rider as with similar riders such as Doohan before him, and involved no conspiracies. When he had the immense bike advantage in 2003 as a consequence of being the number one HRC rider he promptly departed for Yamaha the next year, shaking the dust from his feet. That was a brave move and the 2004 championship a great achievement, although he was part (very likely the most important part) of a concerted effort by Yamaha rather than jumping on a bike that was little different to the 2003 bike.

I don't see that any conspiracies were involved in the 2009 championship either. In 2008 if he did get the Bridgestone tyres by strong-arming Dorna with threats of immediate retirement, then that is an example of him having undue influence and involves a degree of conspiracy, but there isn't and in all likelihood will never be any proof of this, and at worst he ended up on the same tyre as Stoner and out-rode him anyway, and hence deserved the title. Only if they took away Stoner's/Ducati's preferred tyre, in regard to which I am again unaware that any proof exists, would I place any caveats on the 2008 title win.

I am with Jumkie in regard to the end of season 2015 events however. It was a gross display of both petulance and entitlement imo, and a naked attempt to influence events through off track means utilising his power in the media and with his fanbase.

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What I say is that Rossi -- however famous rich and powerful he may have become -- is just and individual, a rider who puts his ... on the line every weekend like any other rider. As such it's ridiculous to single him out as the manipulator and spoiler of an entire world series, when much more powerful players are busy there and daily at work with all available means toward their own goals -- and when the most powerful among these players happens to have little love lost on Vale Rossi since 2003.

Now, the fact that an individual rider exerts his earned power and influence to get the best bike or the best tires or the best whatever goes without saying, and I do not know any competitive rider who wouldn't.

Actually, he (no doubt driven by pride and even hubris) gave up the best bike (or one of the best) not once but twice, succeeding the first time and failing the second; still he tried, and there are not many other champions who did that.

Now, that obviously doesn't fit with the collective-self-indulging narrative current in this forum, of a rider busy only at securing fair and unfair advantages for himself, does it. If that was his main preoccupation, he certainly would never have left mama Honda, no? Unthinkable.

Regarding 2015 you know I condemned him when he pushed Marquez out, and didn't support him going public with accusations that cannot be proved. But I see that differently from you and Jums: there Rossi was simply cracking under pressure, rather than trying to influence or mastermind anybody. He simply couldn't avoid doing those two silly things, and it would have been much better for him had he avoided both of them.

So J4rno, would you like to tell me what other rider(s) summons the CEO of Dorna to his trailer?

JPSLotus said:

So J4rno, would you like to tell me what other rider(s) summons the CEO of Dorna to his trailer?

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I bet there are more "trailer meetings" than we will ever know about.

J4rn0 said:

Now, that obviously doesn't fit with the collective-self-indulging narrative current in this forum, of a rider busy only at securing fair and unfair advantages for himself, does it. If that was his main preoccupation, he certainly would never have left mama Honda, no? Unthinkable.

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- No, his main preoccupation appeared to be, by his own admission, owning his image rights, which wasn't to be fair wholly unreasonable. Again, you are skewing and rewriting history 'Yarn0'. He was finally swayed by Yamaha after they presented him with four new engine options courtesy of Yoda - and after Barros bust his balls every week as a test pilot, I'd be highly surprised if so much as the master cylinder made it onto the 2004 iteration. Probably the only thing that remained the same were the footpegs and -ahem - the tobacco sponsor.

J4rn0 said:

Now, the fact that an individual rider exerts his earned power and influence to get the best bike or the best tires or the best whatever goes without saying, and I do not know any competitive rider who wouldn't.

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No one is denying that, but again what you appear to completely fail to appreciate is the historically disproportionate extent of this. No other rider at that time would have been afforded such a range of concessions at Yamaha. Similarly, at Ducati, the adoption of the twin spar chassis -(allow me again to drop in the name of the late great Antonio Cobas) - was a seismic shift for Ducati, and one which shook them to their foundations compromising their entire race DNA if not the brand. Marco Melandri on the other hand was consigned to a psychologist. Furthermore, I struggle to think of many riders in history that could walk out on a Japanese marque and could crawl back with their tail between their legs and egg squarely on face. Remember Sheene's Yamaha T.Shirt? Even the insufferably sycophantic Parrish warned him at the time that it would be the most expensive shirt he ever wore.

Anyway, Rossi's departure from Honda rather reminded me of the Sony Music shenanigans with Prince. It still amazes me that he didn't turn up to a GP with 'slave' daubed on his face. Remember this though? perhaps the not so subtle meaning was nonetheless lost on you at the time?...





Maybe he should have become 'the rider formerly known as Rossi'...although I'd contend he accomplished that consummately at Sepang. As Norge tweeted at the time, the venerable Buffet quote that it takes twenty years to build a legend and five minutes to ruin it - at least in the view of the rational minded. Very, very apt.

Can any of you fine enterprising gentlemen tell me if at any point in GP (that you are aware of) prior to Rossi's ascension to the premier class, a rider was allowed to get away with all of the behavior that Rossi exhibited under two different factory teams?

Tiered tire systems long before Rossi isn't particularly shocking since Goodyear did the same thing in Formula 1 where all of the "B" teams got whatever was left. Actually this might be apt for some food for thought for everyone....a few years back I had an interesting conversation with someone in the Goodyear Race division about when they supplied F1. He told me the biggest issue they had to deal with back then were the top teams were constantly trying to politic for alterations to the tires in order to suit certain characteristics of their own car designs. He mentioned Williams, Ferrari, and Jordan specifically. Tire shenanigans though have gotten worse since those days in both F1 and GP because of the need to try and introduce more entertainment value than actual sporting value to the sport. Goodyear interestingly was forced out of F1 through rules changes that were intended to benefit Bridgestone...but in spite of this, when F1 switched to 3 groove tires in 1998 from slicks, Goodyear nearly got Ferrari the world title that year in spite of a significant tire construct change aimed at helping Bridgestone compete against them.

I guess I would never underestimate the funny business that goes on with tires, and since GP has moved away from the more pure sporting aspect that we saw prior to Rossi, the idea that tires were constructed to help a rider who personified entertainment and ratings increases is hardly shocking by any stretch of the imagination. I know MikeM disagrees on this, but Rossi has had a loaded dice for his entire career from 500cc to 4-stroke, 990, 800, etc. His titles are all ........ anyway. There was no one-hand tied behind his back, the rest of the field had to deal with that.

F*ck it J4, I figure I may as well time with with some of my narrative just sor sh*ts and giggles of course.

J4rn0 said:

What I say is that Rossi -- however famous rich and powerful he may have become -- is just and individual, a rider who puts his ... on the line every weekend like any other rider. As such it's ridiculous to single him out as the manipulator and spoiler of an entire world series, when much more powerful players are busy there and daily at work with all available means toward their own goals -- and when the most powerful among these players happens to have little love lost on Vale Rossi since 2003.

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Only my opinion so stick with me.

I am no Rossi personality fan and I do feel that he is a master manipulator, but I also do NOT blame him as any athlete that is allowed to become the emphasis of the sport has been provided with to much power by those managing or administering the sport, and thus as I always have, I fully blame DORNA and by extension Ezpeleta.

J4rn0 said:

Now, the fact that an individual rider exerts his earned power and influence to get the best bike or the best tires or the best whatever goes without saying, and I do not know any competitive rider who wouldn't.

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Rossi would be an absolute fool to give up the advantages or benefits that have been afforded him, as would any rider in a similar boat

Yes all of these riders will publically 'want' a level playing field but we all know that to be bullsh*t as the level playing field only applies to their competitors and not themselves

J4rn0 said:

Actually, he (no doubt driven by pride and even hubris) gave up the best bike (or one of the best) not once but twice, succeeding the first time and failing the second; still he tried, and there are not many other champions who did that.

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Ego makes a man (or woman) make mistakes

Ego also makes a man (or woman) unable to admit to their mistakes

Lots of people change suppliers, factories, teams so it is not like Rossi is/was the first and he will not be the last - it is what people do be they champion or not.

J4rn0 said:

Now, that obviously doesn't fit with the collective-self-indulging narrative current in this forum, of a rider busy only at securing fair and unfair advantages for himself, does it. If that was his main preoccupation, he certainly would never have left mama Honda, no? Unthinkable.

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J4, just take the glasses off for a second and look at the overall picture of the last 20 years and you will see that very few, if any riders have been given the benefits afforded to VR (deservedly so or otherwise).

When you are at the top, people will listen to you (in most circumstances) and as such you do have an influence in the way the sport is shaped when your opinion is sought of offered.

It would be naive to think that VR has not openly sought council with people to use the influence he does possess (and this influence refers to the dollars that he generates) to see the sport follow a direction that best suits him. As stated, to say otherwise is naive as he has the power and access to the decision makers and it has been reported that he has done so in years past whilst other riders have certainly not had the same level of access

Does this make him the manipulator - well only when the organisers listen and again, due to the fact that those same organisers have allowed VR to be bigger than the sport itself, of course they listen.

Examples are as recent as Sepang where after the event MM and others were hauled over the coals for their alleged 'riding' behaviours.

J4rn0 said:

Regarding 2015 you know I condemned him when he pushed Marquez out, and didn't support him going public with accusations that cannot be proved. But I see that differently from you and Jums: there Rossi was simply cracking under pressure, rather than trying to influence or mastermind anybody. He simply couldn't avoid doing those two silly things, and it would have been much better for him had he avoided both of them.

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Absolutely right.

You have condemned him when he deserved such and for that it is why I do not put you in the bopper fold as yes you do defend (as do I with Stoner for example) but you also criticise which boppers do not - well not criticise Rossi.

Not passing any judgement on Sepang's on track issue, but personally I perversely enjoyed the meltdown of Rossi as it showed (some will say confirmed) that which many have been suspicious of for a great number of years - that being what goes on behind the veil became public, very public.

What has happened since, including the press conference at Argentina is a poor and sad reflection

Whilst the above is just my big mouthed opinion, none of it should detract from the fact that the guy can ride a motorcycle extremely well and as such, he earnt the opening of many doors and behind some of these doors were benefits that his results deserved.




Unrelated but kind of related.

The issue that is caused by results driving benefits is that (and I will use VR as the example, but others have been on the receiving end) VR gets goods results so gets better bike/tyres. These then allow better results so he gets more benefits and so forth, thus monopolising the benefits somewhat which restricts these benefits to the other riders.

This monopolising then allows the results to improve which leaves other riders further behind and thus the disparity grows to almost what we have today, only a few 'benefit receiving' riders with a worthwhile chance of victory and thus the championship

JPSLotus said:

So J4rno, would you like to tell me what other rider(s) summons the CEO of Dorna to his trailer?

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Given that some riders have said that they have been made to feel less worthy than the toilet paper of the CEO I suspect that we all know that answer



Interestingly, I wonder if any of the factories/teams have a similar rapport?

Gaz said:

Given that some riders have said that they have been made to feel less worthy than the toilet paper of the CEO I suspect that we all know that answer



Interestingly, I wonder if any of the factories/teams have a similar rapport?

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Rossi makes Carmyellow rich, very rich. It's a symbiotic relationship.

The booes by the "fans" do not go unnoticed. TV rights are negotiated based on value of audience. Three-quarters of a million minions signed a petition to reverse a light penalty Rossi deserved, think of how many of the Yellow Hordes that represents outside that petition.

Carmelo sells TV value, the audience want to see Rossi TV 24/7. Carmelo isn't going to sell cheaters (Marquez) borings (Lorenzo) and robots (Pedrosa). Clowns are what the people want.

Gaz said:

F*ck it J4, I figure I may as well time with with some of my narrative just sor sh*ts and giggles of course.





Only my opinion so stick with me.

I am no Rossi personality fan and I do feel that he is a master manipulator, but I also do NOT blame him as any athlete that is allowed to become the emphasis of the sport has been provided with to much power by those managing or administering the sport, and thus as I always have, I fully blame DORNA and by extension Ezpeleta.




Rossi would be an absolute fool to give up the advantages or benefits that have been afforded him, as would any rider in a similar boat

Yes all of these riders will publically 'want' a level playing field but we all know that to be bullsh*t as the level playing field only applies to their competitors and not themselves




Ego makes a man (or woman) make mistakes

Ego also makes a man (or woman) unable to admit to their mistakes

Lots of people change suppliers, factories, teams so it is not like Rossi is/was the first and he will not be the last - it is what people do be they champion or not.





J4, just take the glasses off for a second and look at the overall picture of the last 20 years and you will see that very few, if any riders have been given the benefits afforded to VR (deservedly so or otherwise).

When you are at the top, people will listen to you (in most circumstances) and as such you do have an influence in the way the sport is shaped when your opinion is sought of offered.

It would be naive to think that VR has not openly sought council with people to use the influence he does possess (and this influence refers to the dollars that he generates) to see the sport follow a direction that best suits him. As stated, to say otherwise is naive as he has the power and access to the decision makers and it has been reported that he has done so in years past whilst other riders have certainly not had the same level of access

Does this make him the manipulator - well only when the organisers listen and again, due to the fact that those same organisers have allowed VR to be bigger than the sport itself, of course they listen.

Examples are as recent as Sepang where after the event MM and others were hauled over the coals for their alleged 'riding' behaviours.




Absolutely right.

You have condemned him when he deserved such and for that it is why I do not put you in the bopper fold as yes you do defend (as do I with Stoner for example) but you also criticise which boppers do not - well not criticise Rossi.

Not passing any judgement on Sepang's on track issue, but personally I perversely enjoyed the meltdown of Rossi as it showed (some will say confirmed) that which many have been suspicious of for a great number of years - that being what goes on behind the veil became public, very public.

What has happened since, including the press conference at Argentina is a poor and sad reflection

Whilst the above is just my big mouthed opinion, none of it should detract from the fact that the guy can ride a motorcycle extremely well and as such, he earnt the opening of many doors and behind some of these doors were benefits that his results deserved.




Unrelated but kind of related.

The issue that is caused by results driving benefits is that (and I will use VR as the example, but others have been on the receiving end) VR gets goods results so gets better bike/tyres. These then allow better results so he gets more benefits and so forth, thus monopolising the benefits somewhat which restricts these benefits to the other riders.

This monopolising then allows the results to improve which leaves other riders further behind and thus the disparity grows to almost what we have today, only a few 'benefit receiving' riders with a worthwhile chance of victory and thus the championship

Click to expand...

This cuts to the nitty gritty reality of human nature and in particular the nature of racers - who above all - want to win. Anyone who's ever raced will admit that they'd take advantage of any edge available. Getting SNSs isn't in the end, all that much different than being the only guy to have a seamless transmission, or a chassis that is configured to suit the riders idiosyncrasies or being the rider whose team outspends all the other teams by millions to gain him a tenth of a second per lap. Life ain't fair, and in big money sports less so. Pollyanna-ish hand-wringing and outrage over the despoilment of the sport strikes me as incredibly naive. The utopian "level playing field" has never existed except in some fan-boy imagined golden era.

JPSLotus said:

Can any of you fine enterprising gentlemen tell me if at any point in GP (that you are aware of) prior to Rossi's ascension to the premier class, a rider was allowed to get away with all of the behavior that Rossi exhibited under two different factory teams?

Tiered tire systems long before Rossi isn't particularly shocking since Goodyear did the same thing in Formula 1 where all of the "B" teams got whatever was left. Actually this might be apt for some food for thought for everyone....a few years back I had an interesting conversation with someone in the Goodyear Race division about when they supplied F1. He told me the biggest issue they had to deal with back then were the top teams were constantly trying to politic for alterations to the tires in order to suit certain characteristics of their own car designs. He mentioned Williams, Ferrari, and Jordan specifically. Tire shenanigans though have gotten worse since those days in both F1 and GP because of the need to try and introduce more entertainment value than actual sporting value to the sport. Goodyear interestingly was forced out of F1 through rules changes that were intended to benefit Bridgestone...but in spite of this, when F1 switched to 3 groove tires in 1998 from slicks, Goodyear nearly got Ferrari the world title that year in spite of a significant tire construct change aimed at helping Bridgestone compete against them.

I guess I would never underestimate the funny business that goes on with tires, and since GP has moved away from the more pure sporting aspect that we saw prior to Rossi, the idea that tires were constructed to help a rider who personified entertainment and ratings increases is hardly shocking by any stretch of the imagination. I know MikeM disagrees on this, but Rossi has had a loaded dice for his entire career from 500cc to 4-stroke, 990, 800, etc. His titles are all ........ anyway. There was no one-hand tied behind his back, the rest of the field had to deal with that.

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Where I actually started with all this, and what started me on this forum and internet forums in general, was denigration of Stoner and attribution of his 2007 title to bike advantages by Rossi "boppers" (as opposed to J4rn0 btw who is and was a Ducati fan and was a big Stoner fan and always gave him full credit), having apparently done the same in regard to Hayden the year before. I thought this was ludicrous, for the reasons you and others have been advancing, from fans of a rider who had always had the best equipment, and in particular had won a title for Honda in 2002 on a bike that was literally in a different class to those of his rivals.

What I don't agree with is that Rossi's first 5 titles were the result of conspiracies. The top riders and teams have always been advantaged in GP bike racing as J4rn0 says. Michelin had tiered tyres long before him, and I see little hard evidence that the SNS tyres actually did really suit him to the exclusion of others; as I said Biaggi and Gibernau never complained, and Max in particular was hardly unknown for complaining including in regard to his equipment. The sole evidence seems to be a statement by Edwards, and while he was a great superbike rider he was never a top class motogp rider imo, and it quite plausible to me that tyres which suited guys predominantly from a background in the 250s wouldn't suit a rider with a style honed on superbikes.

As I also said I don't think there was any conspiracy in 2009, and in 2008 it comes down to whether Dorna really did contrive to take away Stoner's tyre. There doesn't seem to be much doubt that Rossi used his influence to get on the Bridgestones for that year however, and like you I wasn't impressed that having had the advantage of SNS Michelins for years Rossi apparently regarded immediate access to the Bridgestones developed entirely by others with considerable effort over some years as a right.

Dorna, admittedly perhaps through incompetence, have also made a number of decisions over the years which were far from helpful to Rossi, including the abolition of SNS tyres, the 800 formula given he like Hayden is also tall for a gp bike rider, the control tyre, and the engine limitation rule brought in while he was at Ducati.

The 2015 late season events have changed my attitude to Rossi, however, and I am obviously fairly comprehensively with the anti-Rossi viewpoint in regard to those events, including the motor home meetings with Carmelo. I had also previously mainly blamed a crazy element among Rossi fandom for the persecution of his rivals, but now consider Rossi not only fully complicit with them but more than prepared to use this and his power in the media and influence in general as a weapon against his rivals.

The trouble when people start trying to blame or figure out just how much of that blame should be apportioned to the various people in GP (Rossi, Ezpeleta, etc.) or that why would any rider give up their advantage, is that this is a smokescreen argument that loses sight of the real problem at hand.

Actually, it's pure ........ that isn't even one bit relevant.

Let's get to the heart of the matter.

When it comes to motor sport, advantages should come by way of a combination of the rider or driver being given a well-engineered machine that may be better than other similar machines in which it is competing against. You gain advantage by way of engineering a better machine than everyone else and hoping the pilot can make use of the well-engineered machine.

This is absolutely essential to concepts of fair play in motor sport.

When a rider is being given preferential treatment by way of specially constructed tires being overnight to the circuit for race day, being afforded tire manufacturer switches, and generally getting his way when he decides he doesn't like how things are, or needs to be bailed out of his own poor decision, we're now creating two different tiers in the sport. Tier 1 is for the special rider, Tier 2 is for everyone else not named that rider. The preferred tier is Tier 1 because special treatment and decisions are reserved for that tier. However, no one can get there because they aren't that rider.

Why that rider has these advantages doesn't matter. What matters is that he even has them! That is a well-constituted fraud that any paying fan should be outraged over. For any given professional sport to be consumed by the public, there is an implicit understanding that the competition should not be slanted in favor of any competitor or team, otherwise the entire thing becomes a farce, and the legitimacy bestowed upon the sport suddenly is no more. Of course if you are a yellow bopper, it's unlikely such a problem will ever be seen with a slant or outright rigging in favor of the rider they are invested in. For everyone else, this should not be accepted period. I view it the same as the crime of gambling on baseball...once it happens, it throws all of the results into question since you can't really take the word of those cheating the fans for ulterior purposes. Pete Rose claimed he only bet in a small window of time and as a manager only. Then it turned out he was betting as a player, and claims it was never on games he played in. You can't believe him because he already lied multiple times to protect himself. Everything he did is suspect...just as every title Rossi won is dubious because of the tier 1 benefits he was given. Who enabled it and who let it go on does not matter. What matters is that this happened!

JPSLotus said:

The trouble when people start trying to blame or figure out just how much of that blame should be apportioned to the various people in GP (Rossi, Ezpeleta, etc.) or that why would any rider give up their advantage, is that this is a smokescreen argument that loses sight of the real problem at hand.

Actually, it's pure ........ that isn't even one bit relevant.

Let's get to the heart of the matter.

When it comes to motor sport, advantages should come by way of a combination of the rider or driver being given a well-engineered machine that may be better than other similar machines in which it is competing against. You gain advantage by way of engineering a better machine than everyone else and hoping the pilot can make use of the well-engineered machine.

This is absolutely essential to concepts of fair play in motor sport.

When a rider is being given preferential treatment by way of specially constructed tires being overnight to the circuit for race day, being afforded tire manufacturer switches, and generally getting his way when he decides he doesn't like how things are, or needs to be bailed out of his own poor decision, we're now creating two different tiers in the sport. Tier 1 is for the special rider, Tier 2 is for everyone else not named that rider. The preferred tier is Tier 1 because special treatment and decisions are reserved for that tier. However, no one can get there because they aren't that rider.

Why that rider has these advantages doesn't matter. What matters is that he even has them! That is a well-constituted fraud that any paying fan should be outraged over. For any given professional sport to be consumed by the public, there is an implicit understanding that the competition should not be slanted in favor of any competitor or team, otherwise the entire thing becomes a farce, and the legitimacy bestowed upon the sport suddenly is no more. Of course if you are a yellow bopper, it's unlikely such a problem will ever be seen with a slant or outright rigging in favor of the rider they are invested in. For everyone else, this should not be accepted period. I view it the same as the crime of gambling on baseball...once it happens, it throws all of the results into question since you can't really take the word of those cheating the fans for ulterior purposes. Pete Rose claimed he only bet in a small window of time and as a manager only. Then it turned out he was betting as a player, and claims it was never on games he played in. You can't believe him because he already lied multiple times to protect himself. Everything he did is suspect...just as every title Rossi won is dubious because of the tier 1 benefits he was given. Who enabled it and who let it go on does not matter. What matters is that this happened!

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Bottom line is that while I agree with Povol that Rossi is a manipulative prick, like Povol I think he is still a great rider, if not significantly better than other greats as he was at one stage hyped to be. No-one particularly including me complained about Mick Doohan's advantages during his 5 year run of titles.

michaelm said:

Bottom line is that while I agree with Povol that Rossi is a manipulative prick, like Povol I think he is still a great rider, if not significantly better than other greats as he was at one stage hyped to be. No-one particularly including me complained about Mick Doohan's advantages during his 5 year run of titles.

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I'll never agree with you on that Mike. Good rider yes, not a true top tier ala Hailwood, King Kenny, Wayne Rainey, and Casey Stoner...or better known as the real alien riders.

Also don't think any rider was ever given the sort of advantages Rossi was...none of them ever were, Doohan included.

Estoril 2006 is still the greatest race of the past 15 years since it was the curtain being pulled back on Oz.

JPSLotus said:

I'll never agree with you on that Mike. Good rider yes, not a true top tier ala Hailwood, King Kenny, Wayne Rainey, and Casey Stoner...or better known as the real alien riders.

Also don't think any rider was ever given the sort of advantages Rossi was...none of them ever were, Doohan included.

Estoril 2006 is still the greatest race of the past 15 years since it was the curtain being pulled back on Oz.

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You won't get any argument from me in regard to those riders.

A major reason I dislike Rossi now is that after late season 2015 I have allocated retrospective blame to him for Stoner's disillusionment with the sport, having blamed the attitudes of his fans and DORNA rather than Rossi himself previously.

JPSLotus said:

So J4rno, would you like to tell me what other rider(s) summons the CEO of Dorna to his trailer?

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"Summons" is your personal view, not the reality. Rossi is free to invite anybody to his trailer, or to be invited to anybody's trailer or office for that matter. That you like it or not -- it's his trailer.

For the record, the supposed "summoning" was pretty useless because Ezpeleta didn't buy Rossi's argument at all, and publicly rejected Rossi's theory. So there you have it, a fact! And surprise-surprise, it doesn't fit with your narrative. Try again, you can do better...