WSBK - Portimao - Final Round!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Oct 25 2009, 04:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>As an enthusiastic fan of this sport for as long as i have been i think its natural that i pick up some general knowledge along the way. You are welcome to be scpetical about the source of my knowledge but at the end of the day it doesn't actually matter and its sad that you have to turn it into some issue of competition and pride. I'm only here because i like to have a good discussion, i'd prefer it if you were one of the few people capable of that.
Since 1981?

Tom you are incapable of a good discussion as 90% of regular members of this forum will bear testament to. You argue the toss because you are a tosser. You nitpick, and offer contradictory pedantic opinions which you then fail to qualify, and you never ever admit that you are wrong. You're only here as a troll - you seldom discuss or debate.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Oct 25 2009, 04:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I have to disagree. I think any racer is responsible to achieve the best result they can for their personal sponsors, their side of the garage and team members and for their own career. From a team management point of view constructors points are worth the same regardless of who scores them, and each rider is employed to do their best in the riders standings. Nori didn't win the title this seaosn because HE didn't do well enough, not because somebody else didn't let him win... that isn't racing
What a ....... shock.

Don't be so naive. Do you really believe that factories such as HRC and Ducati promote this? Championships are won by team tactics. It is a given that Ducati employ these, and as Hodgson said this is the norm in motorsport. Fabi had nothing to achieve in the championship by finishing first today. Are you telling me that the constructors world championship sells motorcycles in the same way that the rider championship does??? Each factory rider is employed by a team, and manufacturer, and as such are answerable to team direction. Correct, Nori didn't win the championship this the because he didn't do well enough, but he also didn't win it because Fabi took ten points off him. You are so one dimensional, you fail to see that I am not arguing in favour of team orders. Correct it isn't racing, I agree, but it is the team and factory protocol, and in that respect Tardozzi and Fabi have ...... up. Very simply Tom, what I am saying is under Tardozzi - Xuas was not allowed to take points off Bayliss in the same way as Fabi was Haga - very simply because he manages Micheal...and that isn't racing either. I'm not arguing in favour of team orders - quite the reverse, but this will reverberate around certain corridors in Bologna, and will not have done Fabi any good at all. Did you see his expression in Parc Ferme? - hardly one of elation. The record books will not discriminate, but unless he wins the title next year, someone at Ducati corse unquestionably will.

I repeat, I am not condoning team orders, I agree with your opening sentence. But you know as well as I do from watching this sport what can happen if you choose to flout them, and there is not question that Fabi would have been given a job to do today by his employers, that he elected not to do.

Expect Ducati to tirelessly petition the Flammini's throughout the entire duration of the winter once more for yet another change in the rules. The 1298 big bore is already on the drawing board in Bologna.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Oct 25 2009, 08:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I have to disagree. I think any racer is responsible to achieve the best result they can for their personal sponsors, their side of the garage and team members and for their own career. From a team management point of view constructors points are worth the same regardless of who scores them, and each rider is employed to do their best in the riders standings. Nori didn't win the title this seaosn because HE didn't do well enough, not because somebody else didn't let him win... that isn't racing

If rider's built their own bikes and signed their own paychecks, I'd agree with you. What you say is correct in theory b/c team orders aren't supposed to mess with the riders championship, but the reality is that the riders are employees regardless of what championship they are trying to win.

I doubt theoretical discourse about the fairness of the sport is going to spare Tardozzi a beat down at the next Ducati Corse meeting. At the least, Tardozzi will be read the riot act for signing Fabi for another year.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Oct 25 2009, 05:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If rider's built their own bikes and signed their own paychecks, I'd agree with you. What you say is correct in theory b/c team orders aren't supposed to mess with the riders championship, but the reality is that the riders are employees regardless of what championship they are trying to win.

I doubt theoretical discourse about the fairness of the sport is going to spare Tardozzi a beat down at the next Ducati Corse meeting. At the least, Tardozzi will be read the riot act for signing Fabi for another year.
Exactly..and as Hodgy pointed out on Eurosport today, why did they not delay until the end of the season to sign him, on the condition that he helped Haga's cause. No one disagrees with you Tom about the ethics of team orders nor the ramifications they have towards true racing, but the politics prevail. Maybe I should admire Fabi for having the conviction to flout this; perhaps I would were it not for 'Turd'ozzi's vested interests and split loyalties. I've never liked either of them.

As a Haga fan this was quite the anti-climax, Haga dissapointed to be honest. After race 1 i knew his chances where gone, but I really expected him to do whatever he could in race 2, but he sorta was just whobled around 4th.

Arrabbiata1's posts made me feel a little better though , Fabrizio really didn't seem that happy in Parc Ferme.
Spies really deserved it though. And he'd better perform in Motogp!

Props to the Wildcards too!

Next year will be really interesting for Spies. He's won 4 championships in a row now so I wonder how he will cope with being out of contention next year?

Average top class riders in WSBK would end up in top 8 in MotoGP. Ben Spies will end up in top 5 next year. Wait and see what eblowz got.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J708 @ Oct 25 2009, 09:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Average top class riders in WSBK would end up in top 8 in MotoGP. Ben Spies will end up in top 5 next year. Wait and see what eblowz got.
False.

Also Fab is the reason Haga even got second in race 2. If Haga had been in 2nd behind Fab in race 2 with more than 1 lap to go, Fab woulda let him pass. Fab already gave Nori 25 points at Brno, he didn't need to do any more.

Ben ran outta fuel fighting with Fab too. Where was Nori then?
Ducati, Nori, Fab, Tardozi all did the right thing. Nori's injury and propensity to choke are the reason he lost the title. To be fair, he's already owed 1 championship, but not this one.

2009 World Superbike Champion


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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J708 @ Oct 25 2009, 09:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Average top class riders in WSBK would end up in top 8 in MotoGP. Ben Spies will end up in top 5 next year. Wait and see what eblowz got.
LOL the bet huh


well. havent seen race one cause eurosport was broadcasting tennis and table tennis when it was on. so I saw supersport race + 2nd race. didnt knew haga fell in race one, UNTILL I looked in the 'if....' topic over here. thanks for the spoil...

back to race 2. whats there to say? max made lots of mistakes, first it looked like he was the one making them, but it seems like he had some issues with the bike. anyone any ideas what happend? so sad haga yet again couldnt handle the pressure in race 1 huh. you wouldve expected something like that from ben, cause he is the rookie. but haga has soooo much experience. its like he's doomed to always be the 2nd guy. next year JT is back... haga 2nd again?!

why should fabrizio have given his 1st spot to haga. he knew the chances were against haga, why give away your own number 1 spot to haga when it wouldnt make a difference stupid move of rea huh he lost his victory

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SuperShinya56 @ Oct 24 2009, 03:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Damn undeadprincess you're like everything a man dreams of. You're into motorbike racing, you're smart, articulate, and if someone get's on your wrong side......mean as hell. When are you gonna ask me out for a drink or two?

Back on topic. Someone said why I thought Haga was mentally weak.... well just look at it. It now comes down to the last race, do or die if you will, and somehow he manages NOT to be on top or near it on the time sheets as he's always been all year? Yes, he was injured, but look at how he came back and didn't miss a beat.

Sorry to say, but Ben's got this one in the bag. Haga has always been someone who tried hard, but just couldn't cut it. This year is no different.

I love to say it so..... told you so.

And still waiting for an answer undeadprincess.

It was Spies' destiny!

Haga won't win a WSBK championship. This was his best chance I think. I don't think he will perform anywhere near what he did this season, next season. He'll be a year older next season. We have Toseland coming back to try for a third, and he's not even old, a now dangerous (literally and figuratively) Fabrizio, more probable improvement from Aprilia and Biaggi, Rea, Crutchlow, healed Neukirchner, and more. Not going to be any easier next season.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Marijke @ Oct 25 2009, 09:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>why should fabrizio have given his 1st spot to haga. he knew the chances were against haga, why give away your own number 1 spot to haga when it wouldnt make a difference stupid move of rea huh he lost his victory
Totally agree - but as I keep saying, because he would have been under orders to do so by Ducati - and ignoring that when it means sod all to your championship standings is plain stupid. I don't like it, but that's the way that racing is, and to all intent and purposes, Tom is right, it isn't racing. If Spies had DNF'd then it would've made a difference actually.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Oct 26 2009, 12:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Totally agree - but as I keep saying, because he would have been under orders to do so by Ducati - and ignoring that when it means sod all to your championship standings is plain stupid. I don't like it, but that's the way that racing is, and to all intent and purposes, Tom is right, it isn't racing. If Spies had DNF'd then it would've made a difference actually.
would they still have given him team orders after seeing race 1 tho? they'd know haga's chances to become champ were beyong low at the beginning of race 2

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Marijke @ Oct 25 2009, 11:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>would they still have given him team orders after seeing race 1 tho? they'd know haga's chances to become champ were beyong low at the beginning of race 2
Being Ducati unquestionably - in fact even more so!

All of this Fabrizio costing Haga the title is a moot point. Spies would have done what he neede to do in race 2. I have watched this kid race for years and as i predicted,he big picture raced. He had everyone covered this weekend and if he needed a win in the second race,i have no doubt he would have gotten it. He found what he thought was a comfy spot,all by himself until Biaggi statred playing his game. Ben kept letting him by and Biaggi kept running wide to mess with his head. It was kind of a ........ thing to do on Biaggi's part,but Biaggi is a ......... Spies was not happy at all with him after the race. GONGRATS BEN,you da man.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Oct 25 2009, 12:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Irrespective of ones personal stance on team orders, Fabi ...... off. He went underneath Nori and stretched out the lead as opposed to slowing the pace from the front. So Haga fought his way up the field and found his way into second after Rea went wide. At the very least Fabi should have slowed and given Haga the lead, and in the event of Spies being taken out by an erratic Biaggi or a mechanical, Haga takes the title. Those five points he took out of Haga at Imola, plus the five points today. Like Neil Hodgson said in the Eurosport studio, Fabi's job today was to be a teammate, and he didn't do it. Team orders are the norm in racing, Tardozzi chose to favour his rider at Imola and now he's ...... up and he knows it. Ducati will too - because it's team management and titles that count, not rider management. Neil went on to say, that having worked for Ducati, as a small company, racing, and winning the title is everything to them, as opposed to furthering Michael Fabrizio's CV. The resources that they put into racing are enormous because it sells bikes. This championship put an ailing marque into the shop window as a designer brand during the 90's. Coming first today made no difference to Fabi's title standings. The result at Immola and the result today actually cost Haga the title.

I think there's more to Davide and Michael's relationship than meets the eye. This goes beyond a rider manager relationship, and makes Pedro and Puig look almost wholesome.

In most every sense I agree. On the other hand, Spies had .... in the way of team assistance - so in my book the race was much more fair with no assistance from Fabrizio. The racing itself wasn't the great battle we'd all hoped for - but the drama was Shakespearean quality. And Ben was really smart in the second race controlling things as best as could be hoped for given whatever it was that was slowing him down so much. I thought he was brilliant. My Asian friends who were over at my house to watch were crushed at Haga's loss. What to do?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Marijke @ Oct 25 2009, 05:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>LOL the bet huh


well. havent seen race one cause eurosport was broadcasting tennis and table tennis when it was on. so I saw supersport race + 2nd race. didnt knew haga fell in race one, UNTILL I looked in the 'if....' topic over here. thanks for the spoil...

back to race 2. whats there to say? max made lots of mistakes, first it looked like he was the one making them, but it seems like he had some issues with the bike. anyone any ideas what happend? so sad haga yet again couldnt handle the pressure in race 1 huh. you wouldve expected something like that from ben, cause he is the rookie. but haga has soooo much experience. its like he's doomed to always be the 2nd guy. next year JT is back... haga 2nd again?!

why should fabrizio have given his 1st spot to haga. he knew the chances were against haga, why give away your own number 1 spot to haga when it wouldnt make a difference stupid move of rea huh he lost his victory

Max was was injured in a crash during practice and was showing the pain in pre-race interviews. You could see at the post race interview (after the first race) that he was clearly on pain killers. At the second post race interview - the foggy quality in his eyes was unmistakable. Having had more than my share of injuries and self-prescribed pain killers, it's a look I know well. Injuries, pain killers and just being all-round old; not the winning combination. His race was admirable all things considered.

And oh yeah. Go Spies!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Oct 25 2009, 12:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Your attitude problem asside, i think world superbike lacks spectacle and too many of the riders let themselfes down over and over. The quality just isn't quite there.
how many times have the top moto gp riders let themselves down this year?
is it a comparable number to the WSB riders?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (clarkjw @ Oct 25 2009, 01:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>False.

Also Fab is the reason Haga even got second in race 2. If Haga had been in 2nd behind Fab in race 2 with more than 1 lap to go, Fab woulda let him pass. Fab already gave Nori 25 points at Brno, he didn't need to do any more.

Ben ran outta fuel fighting with Fab too. Where was Nori then?
Ducati, Nori, Fab, Tardozi all did the right thing. Nori's injury and propensity to choke are the reason he lost the title. To be fair, he's already owed 1 championship, but not this one.

That's exactly why I'm so pissed at him. He's never really factored into this championship from the get go, and I resent the fact that he has made a profound impact on the two riders who've been battling to win. Whether Fab is mugging his teammate to pick up victories and personal sponsorship bonuses or wrecking the competition, he's always diverting the focus away from great riding and fierce competition and towards the hubris of a young pariah who has never tasted success.

The guy is a menace.