Will Lorenzo defend his MotoGP championship title this season?

The Worst said:

I was expecting this kind of attitude, all denial, no sound arguments, dismissive attitude etc.

Butthurt Stoner fans? Spaniards? What dominates here?

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You have at least stuck to your guns hitherto, but going to argumentum ad hominem while proclaiming you are the one arguing rationally is perhaps contradictory, and usually an indication you are losing a debate.

In answer to your previous post, I am very happy to see any evidence you care to present but have yet to see any. All you are doing is continuing to maintain that your opinion is correct and that of others is incorrect, hardly irrational I concede particularly since I am of exactly the same view in regard to my own opinion, but hardly constituting rational argument either.

You are welcome to your opinion but you have in no way proven it, imo, and once again it is on your side of whatever debate there is that the initial allegations were made.

The Worst said:

I have already addressed that as it's a tired argument.

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Then drop it and discuss Sykesy's botched tyre choice race 2 on the WSB thread instead.

The Worst said:

Rossi only finished behind JLo because of MM,

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...And all that is to be inferred by what is very possibly 'the worst' graph ever created in the history of Microsoft Excel?

Arrabbiata1 said:

Then drop it and discuss Sykesy's botched tyre choice race 2 on the WSB thread instead.

...And all that is to be inferred by what is very possibly 'the worst' graph ever created in the history of Microsoft Excel?

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You guys are the ones calling people fanboys and boppers before I even said anything. Clearly not Oxford educated chaps are you?

Who cares about WSB.

I'm yet to hear alternative interpretations of the graph. All I hear is ad hominem crap.

michaelm said:

it is on your side of whatever debate there is that the initial allegations were made.

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You are fundamentally wrong on this.

The Worst said:

You guys are the ones calling people fanboys and boppers before I even said anything. Clearly not Oxford educated chaps are you?

Who cares about WSB.

I'm yet to hear alternative interpretations of the graph. All I hear is ad hominem crap.

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Bike fans care about WSB, are you a bike fan or a Rossi worshipper?

The Worst said:

You are fundamentally wrong on this.

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Again, you opinion. But of course opinions only count when they are yours don't they?

This stuff is gold.

The Worst said:

You guys are the ones calling people fanboys and boppers before I even said anything. Clearly not Oxford educated chaps are you?

Who cares about WSB.

I'm yet to hear alternative interpretations of the graph. All I hear is ad hominem crap.

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Did I mention the delightful irony at any point?

The Worst said:

I have already addressed that as it's a tired argument.

MM did not need to compromise the race win to interfere with Rossi's championship at that point. He had a massive pace advantage. Rossi only finished behind JLo because of MM, which cost him a net -10 points at least, good enough for his cause. Marquez only needed to do something similar once more and job done.

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You are still not explaining how Ianonne passed Rossi on the last lap after Marquez had cleared off. Where was that pace you speak of.

povol said:

You are still not explaining how Ianonne passed Rossi on the last lap after Marquez had cleared off. Where was that pace you speak of.

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I meant that both VR and AI were clearly faster than JLo, but evenly matched between them. Normally, both would have finished ahead of JL.

It is "possible" that without MMs interference VR could have got rid of AI earlier, but that'd be pure speculation.

The Worst said:

I meant that both VR and AI were clearly faster than JLo, but evenly matched between them. Normally, both would have finished ahead of JL.

It is "possible" that without MMs interference VR could have got rid of AI earlier, but that'd be pure speculation.

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Another question for you.


At which track was it in 2014, after hitherto total dominance on a bike much more to his liking did MM crash out whilst well in the lead, pretty much the first of many crashes including 6 in the first part of the 2015 season?

The Worst said:

I meant that both VR and AI were clearly faster than JLo, but evenly matched between them. Normally, both would have finished ahead of JL.

It is "possible" that without MMs interference VR could have got rid of AI earlier, but that'd be pure speculation.

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Its all pure speculation

The Worst said:

I meant that both VR and AI were clearly faster than JLo, but evenly matched between them. Normally, both would have finished ahead of JL.

It is "possible" that without MMs interference VR could have got rid of AI earlier, but that'd be pure speculation.

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Pure speculation, and solely your opinion. If they were clearer faster than Lorenzo, then they were considerably faster than Marquez if, by your own words, he was slowing down to hinder Rossi.

The lap times clearly prove that AI and VR were faster than JL, they quickly caught him when MM left them after lap 13.

That is not speculation. If it is not what you want to hear that's your problem.

Do you have an alternative explanation rather than simplistic dismissive comments? Or is that too much to ask?

michaelm said:

At which track was it in 2014, after hitherto total dominance on a bike much more to his liking did MM crash out whilst well in the lead, pretty much the first of many crashes including 6 in the first part of the 2015 season?

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Sorry but I don't understand the relevance of this question?

The Worst said:

The lap times clearly prove that AI and VR were faster than JL, they quickly caught him when MM left them after lap 13.

That is not speculation. If it is not what you want to hear that's your problem.

Do you have an alternative explanation rather than simplistic dismissive comments? Or is that too much to ask?

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They did some faster laptimes to catch him up, I will agree with that. But we don't know at what pace Lorenzo was running. Was he looking after his tyres? Was he going flat out? THAT you do not know.

I'd also argue that one or two fast laps do not make them faster overall.

#22 said:

They did some faster laptimes to catch him up, I will agree with that.

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You CANNOT argue with that.

#22 said:

But we don't know at what pace Lorenzo was running. Was he looking after his tyres? Was he going flat out? THAT you do not know.

I'd also argue that one or two fast laps do not make them faster overall.

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His lap times during those laps were inline with the previous laps when he was getting away, very consistent. It was VRs and AIs times that got suddenly faster despite the fact that they were racing each other, which obviously makes them slower. Check the figures, but the graph shows that anyway, if you know how to read one.

But by all means carry on with your denial if that's what you want to think.

The Worst said:

You CANNOT argue with that.

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I said I agreed with you, is the red mist blurring your vision?

His lap times during those laps were inline with the previous laps when he was getting away, very consistent. It was VRs and AIs times that got suddenly faster despite the fact that they were racing each other, which obviously makes them slower. Check the figures, but the graph shows that anyway, if you know how to read one.

But by all means carry on with your denial if that's what you want to think.

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I'm laughing my ... off here, it is so entertaining that you are bursting blood vessels to try and prove you are RIGHT. The fact is, the laptimes are factual, as I have already said. What is complete speculation is the variables causing those laptimes.

If, as you surmise, Iannone in this case was much faster than Lorenzo. Considering he had a rocketship Ducati that breezed passed all of the top 4 on the straights, why did he not:

A: Clear Marquez on said straight and go and catch Lorenzo
B: Be criticised for interferring with Rossi's racepace/position if he was fast enough to breeze up to Lorenzo, given that Iannone passed Rossi on the last corner to take 3rd?

The answer to B is simple: Rossi has directed his fans anger towards Marc Marquez as a scapegoat, rather than admitting he got beaten by 3 other riders (including his mate Iannone).

The problem is while you are correct about the laptimes, the underlying reasons behind the laptimes ARE PURE SPECULATION on your, Valentino Rossi's and all his other rabid fans part. You admit yourself that you have no evidence, only the 'most likely scenario' that fits your narrative. Well surprise, others have a different scenario that fits their narrative. That isn't denial.

#22 said:

If, as you surmise, Iannone in this case was much faster than Lorenzo. Considering he had a rocketship Ducati that breezed passed all of the top 4 on the straights, why did he not:

A: Clear Marquez on said straight and go and catch Lorenzo
B: Be criticised for interferring with Rossi's racepace/position if he was fast enough to breeze up to Lorenzo, given that Iannone passed Rossi on the last corner to take 3rd?

The answer to B is simple: Rossi has directed his fans anger towards Marc Marquez as a scapegoat, rather than admitting he got beaten by 3 other riders (including his mate Iannone).

The problem is while you are correct about the laptimes, the underlying reasons behind the laptimes ARE PURE SPECULATION on your, Valentino Rossi's and all his other rabid fans part. You admit yourself that you have no evidence, only the 'most likely scenario' that fits your narrative. Well surprise, others have a different scenario that fits their narrative. That isn't denial.

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I haven't heard any other plausible scenario that explains the facts. Only hollow denialist dimissive comments, like when people denied the world was round.

A: AI and VR were faster than JL, not faster than MM, who was the fastest BY FAR.
B: Nobody has issue with Iannone racing Rossi. That's what he's supposed to do. They had similar pace and both faster than JL, but slower than MM. The only reason they were behind JL was because MM held them up. JLo made a good start but AI passed him and it was the seagull incident that put JLo back in the lead.

None of that is pure speculation. Rossi has sometimes won and sometimes lost. He ...... up in Valencia 2006 all by himself. He ...... up in 2010 with his crash. He made a mistake going to Ducati (although he had to try)... whatever, but not in 2015, he was a victim of race fixing to favour his rival for the title.

The comments are only hollow, dissmissive and in denial because they don't agree with yours. That is what you cannot handle and is giving myself and others plenty of entertainment.

You HAVE heard other scenarios, but have dismissed them because they don't fit your narrative. Your response was "Complete ........". Who is in denial now?

Rossi is a great rider, and he has had some racing that were a joy to watch. I don't like the guy, but he thoroughly deserved his win on Sunday and rode well. However, he lost the title last year because he simply wasn't quick enough, he then antagonised a rival who did nothing but race him extremely hard in the following race. While you believe what you want to believe, you will never convince me or the others here to feel the same as you. This subject has been done to death since November and many like you have joined to try and prove they were right or to present a smoking gun, it hasn't happened.

#22 said:

The comments are only hollow, dissmissive and in denial because they don't agree with yours. That is what you cannot handle and is giving myself and others plenty of entertainment.

You HAVE heard other scenarios, but have dismissed them because they don't fit your narrative. Your response was "Complete ........". Who is in denial now?

Rossi is a great rider, and he has had some racing that were a joy to watch. I don't like the guy, but he thoroughly deserved his win on Sunday and rode well. However, he lost the title last year because he simply wasn't quick enough, he then antagonised a rival who did nothing but race him extremely hard in the following race. While you believe what you want to believe, you will never convince me or the others here to feel the same as you. This subject has been done to death since November and many like you have joined to try and prove they were right or to present a smoking gun, it hasn't happened.

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Again, I have not heard of a single plausible scenario that explains the evidence. Only flat out denial, i.e. nothing. There are people who are comfortable without rational explanation of the reality around them, lesser minds perhaps? conservative attitudes? relying in hearsay? choosing to believe what they want to believe without challenge? That's the history of human kind, most people are easy to manipulate, consent is easy to engineer for even the most ridiculous things, so this topic won't be an exception.

I know I won't make anyone change their mind, but it reassures my arguments that the opposition's reasoning (or lack of) is so weak. So that's good enough. It means I haven't missed anything relevant. Denialists will deny, that's what they do.

Oh the irony...

Ok Worst, you win the internet today. But, here is a scenario that the evidence supports, a statement from Marquez saying he overheated the front tyre:

Marquez: ?I overheated the front tyre?

It explains his reduction in pace while the tyre cooled, and his subsequent charge back up to the lead once his tyre was back to its prime. Of course you will dismiss it as Marquez is a liar, which I will respond with if Marquez can be a liar, so can Rossi.

Marquez started the final lap 0.6s behind Lorenzo. He started the last lap at Assen 0.4s behind Rossi and still made a pass attempt into the last corner. So it can be done. I got those figures off the MotoGP lap charts but of course you'll dismiss them because they don't support your narrative.