Will Lorenzo defend his MotoGP championship title this season?

The Worst said:

You sound like a man of faith (rather than a man of reason), blindly "believing" in some kind of "truth" accepted by the mainstream.

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Delightful irony. 'Carry on'.

Arrabbiata1 said:

Excellent. Could you share that?

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Have my own spreadsheet at home, but I'm away on hols at the moment. It has more resolution as I used sector times, but the main points apply to both.

The Worst said:

This topic might have been discussed to death here but it doesn't sound like many have managed to understand the basic points of the debate.

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As Arrabbiata has said, oh the irony...

The Worst said:

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Wh...what - wtf??? sorry, speechless. What's the 'Y' axis supposed to be representing??

:dntknw:

Y-axis is time difference relative to an "ideal" rider doing 1'30"" laps.

You can clearly see how Marquez is slowing down AI and VR up to lap 13. Then takes off after Lorenzo at a sudden much faster pace and passes him in only 4 laps. However, while MM is not holding them up, AI and VR quickly catch Lorenzo in laps 20-21, because they were faster than him that day, despite being racing each other. Marquez sees this and lets himself be caught and passed by JLo again and holds the Italians up until the very end. By that point he knows how much he can wait to pass Lorenzo as he has a good idea of their relative pace.

MM had the pace to win that race by 10 seconds.

The Worst said:

Y-axis is time difference relative to an "ideal" rider doing 1'30"" laps.

You can clearly see how Marquez is slowing down AI and VR up to lap 13. Then takes off after Lorenzo at a sudden much faster pace and passes him in only 4 laps. However, while MM is not holding them up, AI and VR quickly catch Lorenzo in laps 20-21, because they were faster than him that day, despite being racing each other. Marquez sees this and lets himself be caught and passed by JLo again and holds the Italians up until the very end. By that point he knows how much he can wait to pass Lorenzo as he has a good idea of their relative pace.

MM had the pace to win that race by 10 seconds.

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Post hoc ergo propter hoc ? logical fallies

Arrabbiata1 said:

Post hoc ergo propter hoc ? logical fallies

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I was expecting better than that but I'm losing hope now. Looks like the intelectual stature around here is lacking.

So we are stupid because we don't agree with your opinion?

The Worst said:

There's nothing to dismiss in that "argument", there's just nothing in it. I've given evidence of what MM could have felt aggrieved about, confirmed by Alzamora.



Not if MM put himself between both on purpose, which is what's the point of the discussion here. Rossi was faster than Lorenzo in PI and only finished behind JLo because of MM. Both VR and AI were much faster than JL there. Sepang was different, most likely VR actually got 3 extra points there thanks to Marquez, but got the penalty too. Valencia was the other big blow, where MM refused to pass JL, against his own and his team's interests. VR lost the title because of PI and Valencia. In PI he should have gained 3 points on Lorenzo, but lost 7. In Valencia he should have lost 3 points to Lorenzo by Lorenzo being 3rd and Rossi 4th (worst case scenario) but lost 12. That made the difference.

So no, Rossi was not just racing Lorenzo. That's the whole problem actually.

And please, stop this "MM won in PI therefore he did not interfere" crap. He did interfere but, at the time, he did not see it necessary to concede the race win because of his massive pace advantage there. His work cost VR a net change of -10 points! If he did that in one more race that was it, job done, which he did at Valencia.



2006 has nothing to do with 2015. VR uncharacteristically crashed and lost the title. Full stop. Did he ever complain or come up with any ........? No. He lost it fair and square without any wrongdoing by anyone. Elias was riding hard for his own interests as he was expected to do.

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Again, all you are saying is that you are right because you are right, and I am wrong because I am wrong.

Did MM not crash out of 6 earlier races in the season despite being able to pull out fast individual laps ? Did he not catch Rossi on the last lap at Assen despite being close to a second behind there and not looking to have Rossi's pace all race, and despite catching him not have the pace to pass him? Did the near loses he had at PI which I described not occur, and was not his bike skittish early in races in many races, in several of which he dnfed? Can his bike not change in its handling and other characteristics with changing fuel load? How did MM know he could produce the fast last lap without crashing before he did so? How do you know how hard JL could have pushed if he had been challenged by VR rather than MM ? Does VR's early race pace not count or do they no longer decide races on total time elapsed/first to receive the chequered flag but rather on which rider had the fastest individual lap now? And again why is it a given VR would have/could have/should have beaten Lorenzo when he couldn't beat Iannone?


My point about 2006 was not that Rossi alleged any conspiracy, but rather that after totally smashing his opposition in the 5 previous titles by being extraordinarily good, in that year, his only other close title battle, he gave every appearance of being susceptible to pressure, a theory only but hardly less plausible than what you seem to be assigning the status of fact ie that MM tanked a race in Lorenzo's favour which he won, beating Lorenzo, out of sheer spite on the basis that his manager may have said he was pissed off when he crashed out of an earlier race after contact with Rossi, having never previously displayed any vindictiveness.

I don't know about you, but I was stunned that Elias beat Rossi in that race, and that he crashed out of the next race in which I fully anticipated Rossi walking it in for the title. I was still stunned given my opinion of Rossi's caliber when Stoner started having success against him the following year, and expecting him to be receiving recognition for being competitive against such a bike racing God on a Ducati ffs, was dismayed to find that to the contrary he was being vilified, which is where this all started for me.

The Worst said:

I was expecting better than that but I'm losing hope now. Looks like the intelectual stature around here is lacking.

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You might want to check the spelling of that.

Too easy, it happens every time.

Again - delightful irony.

#22 said:

So we are stupid because we don't agree with your opinion?

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I'm not saying you're stupid, just have poor attitude. You refuse to discuss any evidence or rational arguments and simply deny any possibility for you to be wrong.

I think some of you guys are very emotional antiRossis. You simply struggle to accept the truth if it can be something you'd rather not want to hear.

Again, the delightful irony

I was expecting this kind of attitude, all denial, no sound arguments, dismissive attitude etc.

Butthurt Stoner fans? Spaniards? What dominates here?

The Worst said:

I'm not saying you're stupid, just have poor attitude. You refuse to discuss any evidence or rational arguments and simply deny any possibility for you to be wrong.

I think some of you guys are very emotional antiRossis. You simply struggle to accept the truth if it can be something you'd rather not want to hear.

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I don't hate Rossi and I'm not in the slightest bit anti-Rossi. In fact wanted him to win yesterday. Masterful performance all weekend on a questionable surface come race day and superb management of the a less amenable hard rear carcass and a dubious front.

Again, highly ironic since as #22 observed your posts are redolent of a modus operandi associated with last November. We've heard it all before and it's really rather dull and has been debated to death. They are also replete with emotional investment, confirmation bias and chronic cognitive dissonance.

The Worst said:

I was expecting this kind of attitude, all denial, no sound arguments, dismissive attitude etc.

Butthurt Stoner fans? Spaniards? What dominates here?

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You have labelled anyone who has disagreed with your version of events as a Rossi hater, something all posters like you do. As others have said, I am not a Rossi hater nor am I a Rossi fan, I just don't worship him and fail to see fault. I am a Lorenzo fan and while I agreed with the reason behind it, expressed my disagreement with his thumbs down gesture.

I have already linked you to one of the dozens of other threads that have been started on this since last November. I, nor anyone else here who has been a member longer than that time, is going to the effort to re-cover topics which have been discussed to death there. If you want your counter arguments, look on the thread I linked and the Sepang 2015 race thread. If not, then don't let the door hit you on your way out.

While you're at it, address my question I asked 2 pages ago:

#22 said:

Well answer me this. If it doesn't make sense for Rossi to make false accusations, does it make sense for Marquez to impede Rossi in PI to try and stop him winning the championship, then go and overtake the ONLY guy who can prevent that on the last but one corner and deny him 5 valuable points?

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The Worst said:

Have my own spreadsheet at home, but I'm away on hols at the moment. It has more resolution as I used sector times, but the main points apply to both.

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If Rossi had the pace as you claim to beat Lorenzo at PI, how did he lose 3rd position to Ianonne on the last lap after Marquez had cleared off. It is obvious you have never participated in any motorsport activity that includes stressing components of machinery. If you had, you would know that tire performance will come and go over the course of a race depending on how hard they are being stressed, same with brakes. Sometimes you simply have to slow down to allow these components to cool back to suggested operating temps. Considering PI has a very recent history of destroying tires in just a handful of laps, it makes perfect sense that a riders times would vary a few tenths her and there. You damn boppers try to make it sound like MM was a rolling roadblock, seconds of the pace, where in fact, we are literally talking about a blink of the eye time difference over a 2.5 mile race track. You, like every other fanatic didnt suspect a thing until you were told what to think, and like good little soldiers you blindly took the word of Rossi as gospel and ran with it, just like Valentino knew you would. If anything, you should be embarrassed to have been manipulated so easily. Was Marquez highly motivated at Sepang, you betcha. Rossi questioned his integrity and got what he deserved, a very pissed off rider that was not going to give an inch and to his credit, he did it on the up and up, not once crossing any line of acceptable racing. It will go down as one the worst miscalculations of response in the history of sport. He might as well have walked up and punched Mike Tyson in the face and not expect to get his ... whipped. I dont know Marquez personally, but just the impression i get from watching him perform and a few interviews i have seen, i knew what his response was going to be. Rossi, being bowed to for so many years, thought this was just another Gibernau or Biaggi that he could unleash his goofy ... fans on and he would fold. The condensed version as i have already explained to you. Rossi saw the title slipping away as far back as Aragon. After PI he panicked, at Sepang he cracked, then came the denial stage at Valencia. Everything his fans and even himself had been fed for decades was under attack, loves a good scrap up on the track,his superior racecraft will prevail in tight battles, mental toughness galore etc etc etc. To preserve that lie, he created a conspiracy to hide his impending collapse. If you have ever been around these kind of people, this makes perfect sense.

I have already addressed that as it's a tired argument.

MM did not need to compromise the race win to interfere with Rossi's championship at that point. He had a massive pace advantage. Rossi only finished behind JLo because of MM, which cost him a net -10 points at least, good enough for his cause. Marquez only needed to do something similar once more and job done.