Who will gain the most with new 800cc engines?

Hi Fish! From a riders perspective the guys with the 125cc and 250cc backgrounds will feel most at home, pretty much as it is now. The problems and solutions to going fast around corners are going to be more or less the same. I think it was richo who posted that the new 800cc bikes are going to be actually heavier that the current 990cc bikes. These are the minimum weight regulation changes for 2007/800cc...

2004 - 2007 minimum weight changes...

2 Cylinders 135 Kg 133Kg - -2Kg
3 Cylinders 135Kg 140.5 Kg +5.5Kg
4 cylinders 145 Kg 148Kg + 3Kg
5 cylinders 145Kg 155.5 Kg +10.5 Kg
6 cylinders 155Kg 163 Kg +8Kg

The principal factor governing corner speed and breaking points before you conisider geometry and weight distribution is the weight of the bike itself so I don't think we can expect to see any major changes in corner speed. It's safe to say that most manufacturers are going the 3 or 4 cylinder route, Honda are rumoured to have a 3 cylinder bike testing as we speak, and considering the amount of influence over the FIM they excersised when the new regulations were being drawn up, we can safely take that to be the case. So the main factor is going to be the chassis and the tractability or driveability of the motor. I really don't think that horsepower figures are going to drop all that dramatically so the age old problem of drive off the turns vs. tyre wear is what engineers and riders are up against. Kawasaki have their 'big bang', yamaha also have a close firing order, Suzuki went the other way with pneumatic valves to create a high revving lunatic of an engine, Ducati have cavities in the top of their pistons to stop them hitting half open valves at high revs and nobody really knows what Honda are up to. So as I see it, it's business as usual as long as you've got lots of cash because electronics are going to play a bigger part which I think is sad really, less rider input as traction control and launch control systems get more effective.

I don't think that the bikes will get more like 250's, that's not possible, I think it's going to be more or less as it is now...with more engine blow-ups as guys try to sqeeze every last ounce of horesepower out of 800cc's.

To answer your question, IMHO whoever's on a fast reliable and rideable bike on tyres that work well for a full 45 minutes will win, same as it ever was.

Oh and yes I AM a tech-nerd!

Honda builds a monster, Kawa and Suzi`s "cost-effective" bikes will embarrass them, Yamaha will only hold on while they got Rossi, Ducati will work wonders with their budget. So not a lot will change.

Except these new things will be slower, heavier, harder to ride and more dangerous all at once. And F1 has proved complex rules arent the way to go if you want close racing. One of the main reasons 250s and 125s are so close is cuz theyre all riding practically the same bikes under simple design rules. Not half concept things with different cylinder conts, weights, top power, ect. I love the technical aspect but I prefer close racing.

I think Honda are going to wheel something out that has even more torque per cube than the V5. 3 x 260cc as opposed to 5 x 200cc with a shorter stroke/high revs is what seems likely so a decrease in displacement won't necessarily mean a peakier motor. Thats not to say they might go pneumatic for even more revs, who knows? I can't wait to hear it!

Well you brought it up!

I've just read that Honda have a 800cc V5 ( allegedly ) so who knows?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (skidmark @ May 23 2006, 07:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Oh and yes I AM a tech-nerd!
Great post Skid, I'm glad someone is because I certainly am not. Racing is racing and riders adapt, it will be the same as when we went to 990s. As long as the horsepower is similar I don't mind. Where did you read that Honda had another V5 in the works Skid? I've been reading rumors of a V3 since 2004.

The 2007 Honda will be either a 3 or 4 cylinder, and it won't have pneumatic valve system. HRC boss confirmed that.

I think that traction control will unfortunately be very important, and we wont get to see guys side ways accelerating out of corners.

Mario Illien's (ex-F1 engineer) V4 800cc (pneumatic valves) is already on the dyno and rumoured to pump out 200hp at 18000rpm. Eskil Suter is building the chasis, so this project is serious they will be on the grid in 2007.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ooost @ May 23 2006, 04:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Where did you read that Honda had another V5 in the works Skid? I've been reading rumors of a V3 since 2004.


I tried to find it again but can't. I saw it yesterday when I went surfing for rumours. All speculation points towards a V3 though and it makes sense to me, 10Kg is a lot of extra weight to haul around and a V3 would in theory be more tractable. A 5 cylinder 800 would be a crazy thing, but who really knows, Honda made a 5 cylinder 150cc racer in the 1960's, imagine what they sounded like

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (skidmark @ May 23 2006, 07:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Oh and yes I AM a tech-nerd!
u are are'nt you! but a good read non the less!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (richo @ May 23 2006, 07:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Honda builds a monster, Kawa and Suzi`s "cost-effective" bikes will embarrass them, Yamaha will only hold on while they got Rossi, Ducati will work wonders with their budget. So not a lot will change.

Except these new things will be slower, heavier, harder to ride and more dangerous all at once. And F1 has proved complex rules arent the way to go if you want close racing. One of the main reasons 250s and 125s are so close is cuz theyre all riding practically the same bikes under simple design rules. Not half concept things with different cylinder conts, weights, top power, ect. I love the technical aspect but I prefer close racing.
so what do ya say richo let's put them all on honda's & let em have at it!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ May 23 2006, 08:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>a peaky engine will make it more difficult to handle.
i remember someone saying that these beast's, because of the way they'll rev, will be more akin to the old 500's

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (teomolca @ May 23 2006, 05:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The 2007 Honda will be either a 3 or 4 cylinder, and it won't have pneumatic valve system. HRC boss confirmed that.
since when do honda boss's speak the complete truth?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (skidmark @ May 24 2006, 10:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Honda made a 5 cylinder 150cc racer in the 1960's, imagine what they sounded like
skid at laguna last year honda brougt the old rc166 race bike & fired it up for all to hear! i was standing right behind it, arms length when they fired her up!!!!!!!! sent SHIVERS down my spine! ...... awesome! it's a six tho

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (skidmark @ May 24 2006, 12:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think Honda are going to wheel something out that has even more torque per cube than the V5. 3 x 260cc as opposed to 5 x 200cc with a shorter stroke/high revs is what seems likely so a decrease in displacement won't necessarily mean a peakier motor. Thats not to say they might go pneumatic for even more revs, who knows? I can't wait to hear it!

Well you brought it up!

I was thinking a 3 cylinder would lead to more of a torque monster, with bigger pots than the current RCV and ten kilos slimmer than anything else on the grid, could make for a competitive package. If they do go in that direction they`ll have a bike that will be less harsh on the fuel tank (Considering that`s getting smaller too) and less peaky so easier to ride. It could work very well. With a lot of tourqe and miniscule weight the thing will be like a rocket on the gas, so acceleration in starts and corner exits will be magic. Might even show up the RCV for a few dozen meters. Less cylinders and less weight works for Ducati in SBK, why shouldnt it work here? Especially when all the other twats got no idea (Dont get me wrong, I hate Hondas, but credit where credit is due)

A bike like that would come at the cost of high revs and big top end power, though. Maybe I read your post wrong Skid. Were you talking about the RCV or the 800 with the shorter stroke? Dosent less cylinders = longer stroke so theres power on for more crank degrees? And more cylinders = shorter stoke/bigger bore so theres more power on for a shorter amount of time, with the additional cylinders making up for the defecit in the time the powers applied for?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (frosty58 @ May 25 2006, 09:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>so what do ya say richo let's put them all on honda's & let em have at it!

It wouldnt work. HRC are only the best because they wanna beat Yamaha. You take out the other manufacturers (Especially Yamaha) and Honda would give up. what`s the point? Look at them in 125`s and 250s. Hondas lose to Aprillias. what the hell? That`s because Yamaha arent there. Where`s the incentive? And Honda only needed the small bikes to train Pedrosa, that`s why the age of 250s is passing.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (frosty58 @ May 24 2006, 11:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>skid at laguna last year honda brougt the old rc166 race bike & fired it up for all to hear! i was standing right behind it, arms length when they fired her up!!!!!!!! sent SHIVERS down my spine! ...... awesome! it's a six tho

Yep frosty you're right but they had a 149cc 5 cyl too, Luigi Taveri raced it. Man I'd love to hear one though!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (richo @ May 25 2006, 08:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Maybe I read your post wrong Skid. Were you talking about the RCV or the 800 with the shorter stroke? Dosent less cylinders = longer stroke so theres power on for more crank degrees? And more cylinders = shorter stoke/bigger bore so theres more power on for a shorter amount of time, with the additional cylinders making up for the defecit in the time the powers applied for?

In theory, well for street bikes or road cars anyway. Road going bikes with an in line 4 lump are the norm, who ever heard of street bike witha close firing order? Service intervals would be a lot less than 6000miles.

This is racing and we're talking about Honda. Expect to see something a bit special from them. Shorter stroke = high revs and thats what any racer needs, it's about the speed of the piston, if the stroke is too long per turn of the crank then you're gonna get heat and ultimately a broken enigine or a DNF.

Was it Honda or Yamaha who built the 18 speed race bike back in the day? I think it was a 250. And Ive heard of a 15cc race Honda making 7hp. Do your maths and work out how much that is per litre and its pretty mind boggling. Dunno what class youd race a 7hp 15 in though... Maybe really super ultra megalites

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (richo @ May 25 2006, 08:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Less cylinders and less weight works for Ducati in SBK, why shouldnt it work here?
Ducatis weigh a frigging ton Richo, I had a 996s which busted a crank with less than 1000 miles on it, piece of crap.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (skidmark @ May 25 2006, 09:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>In theory, well for street bikes or road cars anyway. Road going bikes with an in line 4 lump are the norm, who ever heard of street bike witha close firing order? Service intervals would be a lot less than 6000miles.

This is racing and we're talking about Honda. Expect to see something a bit special from them. Shorter stroke = high revs and thats what any racer needs, it's about the speed of the piston, if the stroke is too long per turn of the crank then you're gonna get heat and ultimately a broken enigine or a DNF.

Yamaha TDM 850.

The 4 cyls will probably be close firing order. Though at some point as the tires keep getting better and better, someone (like Doohan did) will revert to a "screamer" and all the "big bangs" will bite the dust.

Would have thought Honda have most to gain from the change to 800cc. In theory all they have to do is drop cylinder and they have their 800cc. Same cylinder size means their years of r&d into that particular combustion chamber would not be lost. I heard rumours when the rule changes were mooted years ago that Honda had a bit of influence to the revised capacity. Politics at play maybe. All the other manufacturers have to start from scratch.

I think Honda will dominate next year although Ducati seem to be on the ball early and going by their 2003 debut might come out with a rocket.

Whatever happens, I hope the close racing continues.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (skidmark @ May 25 2006, 06:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ducatis weigh a frigging ton Richo, I had a 996s which busted a crank with less than 1000 miles on it, piece of crap.

I was under the impression that the WSBK racing spec 999Rs were lighter than the Japanese bikes because they use a twin so their bike dosent have to weigh as much. Maybe I just imagined that...



And by the way Skid I think you`ll find that people who are not impressed or satisfied with their 996s are in a minority. Maybe you just got a bad bike. Ducs are great bikes, but they`re from Italy, not Japan. Japanese factory workers are perfectionists, that`s why overall, nothing can match the big four for quality. Italians drink a lot of vino on Sunday night then go to work on monday morning. They`re bound to make a few mistakes here and there By the way mate I hope your warranty covered that bike

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (skidmark @ May 25 2006, 06:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>In theory, well for street bikes or road cars anyway. Road going bikes with an in line 4 lump are the norm, who ever heard of street bike witha close firing order? Service intervals would be a lot less than 6000miles.

This is racing and we're talking about Honda. Expect to see something a bit special from them. Shorter stroke = high revs and thats what any racer needs, it's about the speed of the piston, if the stroke is too long per turn of the crank then you're gonna get heat and ultimately a broken enigine or a DNF.

It`s not all about reliablilty. Shorter stoke in a 3 cyl means they`ll only have power on for a small part of the revolution cycle, so without a substantial sized flywheel (Which adds to the moment of inertia of the engine and running gear, making the bike a slower accelerator) it will run a bit rough. Yamaha used it to their advantage with the big bang setup, but that would have reqired a lot of research to get it right. And if you have an interval of no power in the revolution, then a blast of it when one of the screamer pistons gets sent down the cylinder at scary speed, you`ll end up with a very rogh power delivery. It might work, getting high revs out of a sub 4 cylinder, but it`ll be anything but a smooth ride. Even for a race bike

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wheelman @ May 26 2006, 02:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Would have thought Honda have most to gain from the change to 800cc. In theory all they have to do is drop cylinder and they have their 800cc. Same cylinder size means their years of r&d into that particular combustion chamber would not be lost. I heard rumours when the rule changes were mooted years ago that Honda had a bit of influence to the revised capacity. Politics at play maybe. All the other manufacturers have to start from scratch.

They sure will. Just like they did when the 990s came in. My (wacked out) theory is The Evil Red Wing Corporation practically owns the MSMA. Kawa and Suzuki are scared of Honda, because the Evil Red Wing Corporation could destroy their motorcycle markets worldwide whenever it sees fit, so they do whatever Honda says. Ducati and Yamaha will oppose Honda, but Yamaha agreed to 800cc because they thought they were accepting a challenge from the Evil Red Wing Corporation. But what the Dumb Blue Bike Corporation didn`t realize is that they couldn`t win. And the poor Italians were left on their own against the Evil Red Wing Corporation, thier smaller Japanese ......., and the ......... at Yamaha who got tricked by Honda.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wheelman @ May 26 2006, 02:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Whatever happens, I hope the close racing continues.


Yeah, it will. close racing between Gresini`s bikes and HRC`s

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (richo @ May 26 2006, 07:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>By the way mate I hope your warranty covered that bike

I refused to take it back and got a cbr600rr instead which was a brilliant bike.....yep i know a bloody Honda


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wheelman @ May 26 2006, 04:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I heard rumours when the rule changes were mooted years ago that Honda had a bit of influence to the revised capacity. Politics at play maybe. All the other manufacturers have to start from scratch.

Whatever happens, I hope the close racing continues.

From what i've read Honda put a lot of pressure on the FIM when the new rules were being drawn up, to say they wrote the new rules might not be too big an overstatement.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (richo @ May 26 2006, 07:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It`s not all about reliablilty. Shorter stoke in a 3 cyl means they`ll only have power on for a small part of the revolution cycle, so without a substantial sized flywheel (Which adds to the moment of inertia of the engine and running gear, making the bike a slower accelerator) it will run a bit rough. Yamaha used it to their advantage with the big bang setup, but that would have reqired a lot of research to get it right.

Won't be an issue mate. All motogp bikes have a very small 'flywheel' which charges a stator and a small battery for the electronics. You can hear how little effect it has from the way they tick over (around 4500rpm), that 'rough' or lumpy sound.

The lowest the revs might be during any lap is say 10,000. Once the engine is spinning at those speeds, a big flywheel would be a hinderance and the crank is spinning so fast that it's own inertia becomes significant enough to keep things 'smooth'. Any 4 stroker I raced I always took the flywheel right off, made it rev like a 250. .... it the wet though because they spin up so fast, highside city, I know