What if Rossi DOES win the title this year?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ May 16 2008, 07:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>And obviously, JB and the guys were building Aprilias in the night when Doohan was sleeping to allow him to win the 125 and 250 titles.

Were still on the "Rossi is ....., he's just been lucky" bull that keeps rearing it's head. How many folk have successfully DEFENDED the title since Doohan? Go and look up Google, If you still don't get it then please go onto a basic maths website and learn to count, or a basic reading website and learn to read.

Whether you like the guy, whether you want to see him fail, whether you just hate him, or coz your girlfriend finds him attractive....... face facts. The guy has changed GP racing beyond recognition from the mid 90s. At that time, plenty of folks who rode bikes wouldn't have known Doohan from Schwantz or (god forbid) Foggy. Nowadays folk who know jack about bikes know who Rossi is. He raised the bar, and paved the way for Casey, Pedrosa, Nicky and Lorenzo to become the riders they had to become to play at the same level.

Address all hatemail to

Pete
Pete, have you been reading my mind? I have been tempted to reply to some people in various threats about the growning "Rossi is ....." trend and "let´s just forget last year" trend and the "let´s rewrite history" trend that is going on on this forum but man you said it better they I ever could. Thank you, and bless your comand of the english language and of the facts!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ May 16 2008, 07:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>And obviously, JB and the guys were building Aprilias in the night when Doohan was sleeping to allow him to win the 125 and 250 titles.

Were still on the "Rossi is ....., he's just been lucky" bull that keeps rearing it's head. How many folk have successfully DEFENDED the title since Doohan? Go and look up Google, If you still don't get it then please go onto a basic maths website and learn to count, or a basic reading website and learn to read.

Whether you like the guy, whether you want to see him fail, whether you just hate him, or coz your girlfriend finds him attractive....... face facts. The guy has changed GP racing beyond recognition from the mid 90s. At that time, plenty of folks who rode bikes wouldn't have known Doohan from Schwantz or (god forbid) Foggy. Nowadays folk who know jack about bikes know who Rossi is. He raised the bar, and paved the way for Casey, Pedrosa, Nicky and Lorenzo to become the riders they had to become to play at the same level.

Address all hatemail to

Pete
+1

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ May 16 2008, 07:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>And obviously, JB and the guys were building Aprilias in the night when Doohan was sleeping to allow him to win the 125 and 250 titles.

Were still on the "Rossi is ....., he's just been lucky" bull that keeps rearing it's head. How many folk have successfully DEFENDED the title since Doohan? Go and look up Google, If you still don't get it then please go onto a basic maths website and learn to count, or a basic reading website and learn to read.

Whether you like the guy, whether you want to see him fail, whether you just hate him, or coz your girlfriend finds him attractive....... face facts. The guy has changed GP racing beyond recognition from the mid 90s. At that time, plenty of folks who rode bikes wouldn't have known Doohan from Schwantz or (god forbid) Foggy. Nowadays folk who know jack about bikes know who Rossi is. He raised the bar, and paved the way for Casey, Pedrosa, Nicky and Lorenzo to become the riders they had to become to play at the same level.

Address all hatemail to

Pete

Good post, some people are all too willing to discredit those who are successful and Rossi's success is so huge that hes built a noticable amount of hate, there is an even more noticable amount of love though. There are people who put his losses down to luck or machinary, or think that his significance in the sports recent history makes his ability chronologically limitless when he is in fact human. I think that actually the vast majority of people (however they feel about Rossi or other riders) are somewhere in the middle but their views polarized in the eyes of others because so many of the members here take a alternative opinion as a challange rather than a discussion.

Many people have made repeated mention of the Burgess factor; as I understand it the dedication and the skill of Alex Briggs in tandem with Rossi's consummate communication skills was a key factor in providing the inspirational breakthrough which allowed the M1 motor and chassis to work in harmony with the new tyres so quickly this year. So much so, that you may have noticed Vale actually thanked him by name in the post race press conference after his victory at Shanghai. The speed at which this obstacle has been surmounted is incredible, and this year it seems only the Litener/Pedrosa (et.al) crew comes anywhere close to the technical level that the Vale/Burgess team is operating at. Brent Stephens and Alex Briggs have been long term stalwarts of Jeremy's crew, and often seem to me to be overlooked.

As for the comment about Vale always relying on his teammates to do the developmental groundwork....????????????????........what?, who? when?.........(lost for words)........you mean Tohru and Nicky????????????????????????.......Checa????????

I thought Lexicon's daft conspiracy theories were absurd until I saw that. I am frankly aghast

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ May 15 2008, 03:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1. I wouldn't consider a riders performance more impressive because he had to take bigger risks to compensate for relatively poor performance elswhere.

2. As i specified already the value of a finishing postion cannot be overcome by any qualifying perforamance or leading/passing ability because points are awarded for race position. Thats why i saif that for an equivalent finishing position (where natuarally the same world championship points), the rider who hasn't underperformed in qualifying has impressed me more. It is obvious that these relatively minor differences are inconsequencial at the end of the season because it is so unlikely that two riders will end the year with the same combination of race finishing positions, so as usual we are speaking hypothetically.
1. You really don't do racing, do you? (Or spelling for that matter - given the fact that the site has a built in spell-checker, were you on the skunk again?)

What about Lorenzo in China - didn't impress you 'cos he shouldn't have highsided in the first place I guess. Rossi in Assen 07 - should have taken the robot pills and made sure he quali'd pole if he planned to win. LOOA (load of old arse) IMO.

2. See 1.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ May 16 2008, 11:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1. You really don't do racing, do you? (Or spelling for that matter - given the fact that the site has a built in spell-checker, were you on the skunk again?)

What about Lorenzo in China - didn't impress you 'cos he shouldn't have highsided in the first place I guess. Rossi in Assen 07 - should have taken the robot pills and made sure he quali'd pole if he planned to win. LOOA (load of old arse) IMO.

2. See 1.

Sorry about my spelling, i'm not one of those people who gets to be good at everything

Lorenzo in china was impressive in consideration of his injuries, but i would have been more impressed had he stayed on his bike and not hindered himself.

I've said at least twice already that the finishing place is the one that ultimately matters, but hypothetically speaking a win from pole would have been more impressive albeit less exciting. I'm pretty happy about how it turned out.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ May 16 2008, 11:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Lorenzo in china was impressive in consideration of his injuries, but i would have been more impressed had he stayed on his bike and not hindered himself.

I've said at least twice already that the finishing place is the one that ultimately matters, but hypothetically speaking a win from pole would have been more impressive albeit less exciting. I'm pretty happy about how it turned out.
As I said, you're not really into racing are you? Perhaps the developmental side is more your thing, but rider against rider, lap after lap..... only if the guy who wins qualified well.

Don't sneak a peek at BSB or WSS this year - probably not your bag - some of those events contained real racing right down to the wire, and the guys winning the races were usually not on pole.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ May 16 2008, 11:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>As I said, you're not really into racing are you? Perhaps the developmental side is more your thing, but rider against rider, lap after lap..... only if the guy who wins qualified well.

Don't sneak a peek at BSB or WSS this year - probably not your bag - some of those events contained real racing right down to the wire, and the guys winning the races were usually not on pole.

I've been watching more Superbike racing than i usually do this year, the racing's been pretty exciting.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ May 16 2008, 11:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I've been watching more Superbike racing than i usually do this year, the racing's been pretty exciting.
So how do you rate Kiyo in the last race. Quali pretty poor (8th) , but finished in third within 0.051 of Haga in 1st. Impressive or not IYO?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ May 16 2008, 11:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So how do you rate Kiyo in the last race. Quali pretty poor (8th) , but finished in third within 0.051 of Haga in 1st. Impressive or not IYO?

compared to what?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ May 16 2008, 11:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>compared to what?
Bayliss race 1. Finished 3rd, started from pole.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ May 16 2008, 11:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Bayliss race 1. Finished 3rd, started from pole.
roger claps.

The point is that Rossi inherited Mick Doohan's championship winning team - the bike was developed by Jeremy Burgess and the same mechanics, technicians, team support etc that Doohan had. Doohan also was Rossi's mentor. Rossi had it all set up for him to win.

Further, when Rossi went to Yamaha, he took the same crew and mechanics with him from Honda. So yes he won the championship on a different bike (manufacturer) but had the same experts and team with him to turn the Yamaha into the best bike in the paddock and give him an advantage. Also this mass exodus left Honda with a big disadvantage and had to start over again from scratch in many ways without the technical expertise and take a totally new direction. In that way, Rossi had the advantage then on the Yamaha.

Also, Colin Edwards did a superb job developing the bike and acting as Rossi's teammate for him to ride so well in that factory team. Just look how well Rossi is going now with a championship contender as a teammate (Lorenzo) as opposed to a test rider for him (Edwards) who also did a fine job of stuffing up Rossi's contenders. Edwards would often act as a foil riding behind Rossi and ahead of the contenders to slow them down and let Rossi get away with late breaking and basically being an obstacle to pass while slowing them down. By the time they got past, Rossi had enjoyed a free run and pulled out a gap that he wouldn't have had if Edwards hadn't been spoiling the race behind him...

Its well documented it takes a team to win, a package of bike, rider, mechanics, right set up etc and Rossi was a great rider but he also had all the other major components in place to win the championship. That's essentially my point. So I object to the hero worshipping of him and the commentary saying he is unbeatable etc without acknowledging his advantages and putting it all down to his perceived brillance..

Personally I feel with a balanced field now between manufacturers, development and a tyre war in place, that the best riders/racers are winning races now and the past dominance is not being seen by one rider continually winning as they (Rossi for instance) does not maintain such a competitive advantage over his rivals. We are now seeing much more accurately who is the best rider/racer as opposed to who is the best on the best bike with the best team behind them..

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AB#1 @ May 17 2008, 07:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The point is that Rossi inherited Mick Doohan's championship winning team - the bike was developed by Jeremy Burgess and the same mechanics, technicians, team support etc that Doohan had. Doohan also was Rossi's mentor. Rossi had it all set up for him to win.
Having rossi and doohan to develop for quite possibly was of some assistance to burgess . I would be surprised to see him take the rossi line and go to kawasaki without rossi to prove that it is all down to him and not due to the bike or rider.

Well if he wins on the Kawasaki or even a Suzuki (god bless KR Jnr) I'll start worshipping him, that would be nothing short of a miracle!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ May 17 2008, 04:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Having rossi and doohan to develop for quite possibly was of some assistance to burgess . I would be surprised to see him take the rossi line and go to kawasaki without rossi to prove that it is all down to him and not due to the bike or rider.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AB#1 @ May 17 2008, 08:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The point is that Rossi inherited Mick Doohan's championship winning team - the bike was developed by Jeremy Burgess and the same mechanics, technicians, team support etc that Doohan had. Doohan also was Rossi's mentor. Rossi had it all set up for him to win.
As has been pointed out before; there were some interesting changes on the bike after the last time Doohan was on it. The current world champion demanded some changes that secured him a ...9th was it?
Rossi vere in fact the only one that were remotely competetive with the nearly all new bike.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Further, when Rossi went to Yamaha, he took the same crew and mechanics with him from Honda. So yes he won the championship on a different bike (manufacturer) but had the same experts and team with him to turn the Yamaha into the best bike in the paddock and give him an advantage. Also this mass exodus left Honda with a big disadvantage and had to start over again from scratch in many ways without the technical expertise and take a totally new direction. In that way, Rossi had the advantage then on the Yamaha.
To take away one set of mechanics from a factory that run 5 riders could hardly be catastrophic but it surly was at setback to lose JB, but not more than that.
Weigh that against a bike no one had been able to ride, minimal testing time, underpowered engine and do the math. In fact the were so far off the goal on that bike before the first race that both a longer singarm and added height adjustment were added before race two in 2004.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Also, Colin Edwards did a superb job developing the bike and acting as Rossi's teammate for him to ride so well in that factory team. Just look how well Rossi is going now with a championship contender as a teammate (Lorenzo) as opposed to a test rider for him (Edwards) who also did a fine job of stuffing up Rossi's contenders.
Why don't you tell us because as far as I can see Rossi is doing just fine while adjusting to the new tires.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Edwards would often act as a foil riding behind Rossi and ahead of the contenders to slow them down and let Rossi get away with late breaking and basically being an obstacle to pass while slowing them down. By the time they got past, Rossi had enjoyed a free run and pulled out a gap that he wouldn't have had if Edwards hadn't been spoiling the race behind him...
I think you will find that team mate or not Edwards would have done the same thing regardless. You fight for each position even when you are going backwards. Those few times he had a good start or a goood Q he did as usually fade. That was obviously not a tactic just the way edwards ride with or without Rossi as teammate.
He might have been testing one or two things and I hardly find that as surpricing but testing is mainly the #1 riders job. Strange how the perseption of those things change, eh? back in the Honda days it was ALL about how Rossi got the new parts first, but back then it was not for testing but for winning with his unfairly good bike, wasn't it?
But finally, a few times Edwars would probably do exactly what you said. As a team member over years I find that quite naturally. When there is nothing to loose but a lot to win for the team you are a team member. Edwards probably played that role a few times during his cooperation with Rossi.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Its well documented it takes a team to win, a package of bike, rider, mechanics, right set up etc and Rossi was a great rider but he also had all the other major components in place to win the championship. That's essentially my point.
Well, at least us regular worsippers like roger, pete, me amongst others are well aware of the team effort and have ponted that out, but that wouldn't fit so well in your picture would it?
Your previous post just showed your unpolished rossi hate nothing else. You tried to belittle Rossi to an average rider with the best bike and best team. There has to be a lot of woreshipping to balance up that one.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>So I object to the hero worshipping of him and the commentary saying he is unbeatable etc without acknowledging his advantages and putting it all down to his perceived brillance..
To me it looks like what you really object to are sucsess. I can understand how a failure would hate that

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ May 16 2008, 11:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Bayliss race 1. Finished 3rd, started from pole.

Well you know the answer already, i've explained that more than once

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>(AB#1 @ May 17 2008, 08:12 AM)
The point is that Rossi inherited Mick Doohan's championship winning team - the bike was developed by Jeremy Burgess and the same mechanics, technicians, team support etc that Doohan had. Doohan also was Rossi's mentor. Rossi had it all set up for him to win.

correct me if im wrong but didnt mick have the screemer config nsr500 and rossi went big bang so they would have had totally different settings.

and so what if he had the best team, isn't that what competition is all about at this level. not rossis or his teams fault if the other's didnt step up to the mark. ive always said its a team sport not just the rider. i was a mechanic for a race team for 2 seasons, it used to piss me off when our rider claimed all the glory for a win when i had worked my bollocks off to make the bike fast and reliable but that in no way detracts from the riders performance.

are you saying rossi didnt deserve or earn his championships because he had a great team ?