What if Rossi DOES win the title this year?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ May 14 2008, 11:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This is far too simplistic.

Think about the Michelin qualifier advantage for a start. If a Bridgestone rider qualifies 6th and wins it is just as impressive, if not more so, than if he had started on pole.

Also consider a rider having issues during qualifying and hence getting a poor grid slot (eg Rossi at Assen) then resolving those problems in morning warm-up and going on to win. The ability to overcome such problems is in itself impressive, let alone the ability to catch and pass many riders of high calibre, and that makes Rossi's achievement more impressive IMO than if he'd started from pole.

The corollary to your argument is also that qualifying well is as important as finishing well, but you get no points for qualifying. As you only consider the points at the end of the season to be important in determining who is the best rider, I find it unusual that you also hold this view. Surely your view point (in order to maintain consistency) should be that "it doesn't matter where they start, only where they finish in the points".

very good points mate.

i am interested in your answer to the highlighted part tom. i think yamaka46 has spotted a contradiction in you opinions.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ May 14 2008, 11:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1. Also consider a rider having issues during qualifying and hence getting a poor grid slot (eg Rossi at Assen) then resolving those problems in morning warm-up and going on to win. The ability to overcome such problems is in itself impressive, let alone the ability to catch and pass many riders of high calibre, and that makes Rossi's achievement more impressive IMO than if he'd started from pole.

2. The corollary to your argument is also that qualifying well is as important as finishing well, but you get no points for qualifying. As you only consider the points at the end of the season to be important in determining who is the best rider, I find it unusual that you also hold this view. Surely your view point (in order to maintain consistency) should be that "it doesn't matter where they start, only where they finish in the points".

1. I wouldn't consider a riders performance more impressive because he had to take bigger risks to compensate for relatively poor performance elswhere.

2. As i specified already the value of a finishing postion cannot be overcome by any qualifying perforamance or leading/passing ability because points are awarded for race position. Thats why i saif that for an equivalent finishing position (where natuarally the same world championship points), the rider who hasn't underperformed in qualifying has impressed me more. It is obvious that these relatively minor differences are inconsequencial at the end of the season because it is so unlikely that two riders will end the year with the same combination of race finishing positions, so as usual we are speaking hypothetically.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ May 15 2008, 04:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1. I wouldn't consider a riders performance more impressive because he had to take bigger risks to compensate for relatively poor performance elswhere.

In other words you consider ANY bad luck circumstanses or ANY inhertided weakness in equipment that has caused a bad qulification to be the riders own incompetence/ unimpressive performance and while going through the field and win despite a bad start position as less impressive than starting from pole and win with the oposite luck or inhertied equipment advatage?

I don't know how you make that come together Tom and I really think you should drop your engineering studies. Go for marketing or sales where logic never were of any importance and I'm sure you would do great.

Someone mentioned that most of the good riders are usually on good bikes. The question is this.

If we switched all the "good" riders and put them on satelite and crappy factory teams would we see similar outcomes?

Rossi is the king at bike setup and getting a factory team motivated. He and his team could probably transform that kwanker into a title contender over the off season...?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SackWack @ May 15 2008, 07:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Someone mentioned that most of the good riders are usually on good bikes. The question is this.

If we switched all the "good" riders and put them on satelite and crappy factory teams would we see similar outcomes?

Rossi is the king at bike setup and getting a factory team motivated. He and his team could probably transform that kwanker into a title contender over the off season...?

That's a good question you've posed.

Maybe the riders in '....' teams would flourish with the extra feedback and advice from the engineers, but at the end of the day, the rider still rules supreme.

As talented as Rossi and JB are, it'd take a while to make a Suzuki or a Kwaker competitive, as the Yamaha was always 'nearly there' rather than those mentioned, who were never there or there a long time ago.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ May 15 2008, 07:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>In other words you consider ANY bad luck circumstanses or ANY inhertided weakness in equipment that has caused a bad qulification to be the riders own incompetence/ unimpressive performance and while going through the field and win despite a bad start position as less impressive than starting from pole and win with the oposite luck or inhertied equipment advatage?

I don't know how you make that come together Tom and I really think you should drop your engineering studies. Go for marketing or sales where logic never were of any importance and I'm sure you would do great.

If you would prefer me to be more optimistic and change underperformance in one area (qualifying) to overperformance in the other (race) i will. The logic remains identical though, and that is that the inconsistency is a weakness.

Back when Rossi was Rallying and testing F1 cars, he came to the proverbial fork in the road. Cars or bikes? I think his decision to stay was overwhelmingly due to him setting a personal goal of grabbing as many records as possible before retiring. He realized that he was walking away 2rd or 3rd to Doohan or Ago or whomever when he could devote several more years and realistically pass them all.

Whether that's what really happened or whether he could actually do it, who knows? But in my head, that's how it happened.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (phleg @ May 15 2008, 08:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>That's a good question you've posed.

Maybe the riders in '....' teams would flourish with the extra feedback and advice from the engineers, but at the end of the day, the rider still rules supreme.

As talented as Rossi and JB are, it'd take a while to make a Suzuki or a Kwaker competitive, as the Yamaha was always 'nearly there' rather than those mentioned, who were never there or there a long time ago.
The Yamaha was nearly there in 2003? really!Even Ducati in there first year kicked Yamaha's butts mind you it the Yamaha was closer than the Suzuki or the Kawasaki.Speaking of Kawasaki do we get to hear "the screamer" this weekend?

Assuming I'm considered a "naysayer" then I will say....'I'm glad I was around to witness one of the greatest motorcycle racers ever.'

The question is, will those Rossi fans that .... on those two men who beat him fair and square over a season admit that the man got beat when he did?

The man is great, and to beat him was a fantastic feat. If he wins this year, I will be both amazed and honored that I was fortunate to see it. Give props where its due!





Now if Peders wins, I think I'll commit suicide.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ May 15 2008, 11:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Assuming I'm considered a "naysayer" then I will say....'I'm glad I was around to witness one of the greatest motorcycle racers ever.'

The question is, will those Rossi fans that .... on those two men who beat him fair and square over a season admit that the man got beat when he did?

The man is great, and to beat him was a fantastic feat. If he wins this year, I will be both amazed and honored that I was fortunate to see it. Give props where its due!





Now if Peders wins, I think I'll commit suicide.

Have you succeeded in extracting blood from that stone yet?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (phleg @ May 15 2008, 03:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Have you succeeded in extracting blood from that stone yet?
Whats good for the goose...

That's where the question to this thread is coming from. Drink a Monster, it might get your brain going buddy.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ May 16 2008, 12:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Drink a Monster, it might get your brain going buddy.

It'd have to be Relentless, supporting the local side and all

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ May 15 2008, 11:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Now if Peders wins, I think I'll commit suicide.
I hate to say it but, make ready with the bottle of gin and the sleeping tablets

If the racing stay's this close all season (and I think it will) otherthings will come into play, such as physical and mental strenght, we've already seen Casey's little paddy's when it's not all going his way, Lorenzo has had an op and a bit of a knock in Shanghi, so he's not 100%, then there's little Danny, although his size helps him during each race, will he be able to keep it up all season or will his stamina start to fade (I think it will).

Then there's ROSSI he has it all, he has the mental disaplin, he has the stamina and he has staying power!

Brace yourselves for a come back that's what I say!

> Actually I think you'll find, Jeremy Burgess and the technical crew are the masters of setting up the world championship winning bikes Rossi has won on and he inherited that from Mick Doohan..

Rossi has always had a strong mentor, great technical advice and a teammate who sets up the bike for him. Without that he was chucking it down the road and crashing out, just raw potential..

As soon as there is the slightest problem, we hear all the excuses under the sun and he doesn't win..



That's a good question you've posed.

Maybe the riders in '....' teams would flourish with the extra feedback and advice from the engineers, but at the end of the day, the rider still rules supreme.

As talented as Rossi and JB are, it'd take a while to make a Suzuki or a Kwaker competitive, as the Yamaha was always 'nearly there' rather than those mentioned, who were never there or there a long time ago.
[/quote]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AB#1 @ May 16 2008, 03:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>> Actually I think you'll find, Jeremy Burgess and the technical crew are the masters of setting up the world championship winning bikes Rossi has won on and he inherited that from Mick Doohan..

Rossi has always had a strong mentor, great technical advice and a teammate who sets up the bike for him. Without that he was chucking it down the road and crashing out, just raw potential..

As soon as there is the slightest problem, we hear all the excuses under the sun and he doesn't win..

You really should check your "facts" before you arrive with your usuall anti Rossi comments.
If you where even slightly interested you would know that as in 2002 Rossi don't have a teammate to set up the bike, not the he ever had. As Edwards pointed out, he couldn't even use Rossi's tires, not to mention the TC settings. In other words there has never been a teammate that does the ground work.

JB are absolutly a master but don't think for a second that he and his team can do it alone. Despite all telemetrcs the rider is still the most important information source for a good setup.
As a whole the JB/VR team are most likely the best out there but niether would be any better than the worst of them and that would go for JB partnering up with anyone.

And finally, Rosi made his own choises often against his advisors and that's largely what brought him where he is today.

Bah, why do I even bother writing this. Probably becouse I'm in a good mood with an early weekend and e beer in my hand

At the end of the day Rossi went to Yamaha to prove that it's not the bike that wins and then won the championship on a bike that was supposedly inferior to the Honda, not only that but the Honda himself and Burgess developed. What was that Max? You can beat Rossi on the factory Honda.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mjpartyboy @ May 16 2008, 06:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>At the end of the day Rossi went to Yamaha to prove that it's not the bike that wins and then won the championship on a bike that was supposedly inferior to the Honda, not only that but the Honda himself and Burgess developed. What was that Max? You can beat Rossi on the factory Honda.
it was a case of put up or shut up. rossi put up but biaggi ...... up

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AB#1 @ May 16 2008, 02:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>> Actually I think you'll find, Jeremy Burgess and the technical crew are the masters of setting up the world championship winning bikes Rossi has won on and he inherited that from Mick Doohan..
im sure all that experience with doohan setting up the nsr500 proved invaluable when it came to the rc211v and then the M1

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ May 16 2008, 07:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>im sure all that experience with doohan setting up the nsr500 proved invaluable when it came to the rc211v and then the M1


And obviously, JB and the guys were building Aprilias in the night when Doohan was sleeping to allow him to win the 125 and 250 titles.

Were still on the "Rossi is ....., he's just been lucky" bull that keeps rearing it's head. How many folk have successfully DEFENDED the title since Doohan? Go and look up Google, If you still don't get it then please go onto a basic maths website and learn to count, or a basic reading website and learn to read.

Whether you like the guy, whether you want to see him fail, whether you just hate him, or coz your girlfriend finds him attractive....... face facts. The guy has changed GP racing beyond recognition from the mid 90s. At that time, plenty of folks who rode bikes wouldn't have known Doohan from Schwantz or (god forbid) Foggy. Nowadays folk who know jack about bikes know who Rossi is. He raised the bar, and paved the way for Casey, Pedrosa, Nicky and Lorenzo to become the riders they had to become to play at the same level.

Address all hatemail to

Pete