There reasons are one and the same. Yes Ducati made changes to the frame, different material etc, but Rossi and Burgess have told them for 18 months what the issues were and whatever they've cjanged hasn't done a damn thing. So two things are clear, Preziosi feels he knows best and also that he has absolutely no idea how to fix the bike.
There reasons are one and the same. Yes Ducati made changes to the frame, different material etc, but Rossi and Burgess have told them for 18 months what the issues were and whatever they've cjanged hasn't done a damn thing. So two things are clear, Preziosi feels he knows best and also that he has absolutely no idea how to fix the bike.
Joined Feb 2008
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Ah. Rossi and Burgess have known all along. I somehow missed that. Please, elaborate on that.
It's been reported often over the past 18 months that they have repeatedly told Preziosi what the issues were with the bike but he obviously is unable to fix them. Reaching out to Furusawa is a clear indication of this.
Joined Feb 2008
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Joined Apr 2008
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Out of Nowhere
This is brilliant - so much so I need to conscript some emoticons from my mate Barry's battalion.
The next line is absolute Powerslide Gold.
[font=Helvetica Neue', Arial, Verdana, sans-serif][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]
'Whatever they've changed' - that'll only be practically their entire design ethos and race D.N.A.
The bike was going backwards prior to Rossi/Ducati's ill calculated alliance that much is clear - the fact that Casey actually managed to win races on it defies contemporary understanding of physics. So Vale definitely started on the back foot - I concede that, but the whole situation reminds me of a saying - forget who it is attributed to, 'a person wrapped up in himself makes a small package'. The package offered by Ducati on the other hand was substantial and if rumours from Laguna are to be believed the measures that Audi were prepared to go to in order to retain Rossi were unprecedented. Perhaps what Ducati got in return didn't meet expectations instead of the other way around. Really depends on which way you spin it. Ducati compromised their entire philosophy at the behest of Rossi - one thing they regrettably failed to do is send him to the same sports psychologist that they sent Melandri.
"Whatever they've changed it hasn't done a damn thing" Perhaps Vale needed to adapt his riding style more - because whatever he changed it hasn't done a damn thing. Read up on some of the pieces of .... that Hailwood or Rainey tamed. Consider the fact that there are those who have had throughout the history of this sport a nano second to 'adapt' to savage and inferior machinery if they are lucky enough to have a couple of sponsors stitched to their leathers to appease as backers. Fail to do so and they find themselves broken and physically smashed trying or consigned to the scrap heap far from an elaborate rescue plan devised by the owners script writers and puppet masters of the sport. When Valentino opined that 'it is not possible to win on this bike' the collective snigger that rippled around the back of the grid was entirely justified. [/background][/font]
[font=Helvetica Neue', Arial, Verdana, sans-serif][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Funny, I recall Barros saying much the same thing in 2003 prior to many of his recommendations and suggestions mysteriously appearing the following year on the M1 that I quote from earlier in this thread, apparently 'Valentino made'. If the Ducati had been a resounding success in the hands of Rossi and JB then the fanboys would have attributed it wholly to the latter. Please understand and accept that both Ducati and Rossi are culpable for this however much your yellow tinted spectacles obscure that. Remember Rossis parthian shot at HRC? - The bike gets all the credit as opposed to the rider. A good[/background][/font][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)] rider makes the difference remember? Valentino slated Honda years later for a lack of support and input. I reckon at the very least (V5 RC211v aside) they did a pretty good job at propelling his status up the Forbes rich list. [/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Since 2002 Valentino has been pampered by preferential treatment and superior machinery. Those championships of 2001, 2004 and 2009 were nonetheless phenomenal for team and rider, but the nine times tag flatters to deceive as is so often the case regarding the record books. People are often saying on here that the numbers don't lie, before promptly launching an assassination on Nicky for his '06 title which he apparently failed to earn. No one becomes the World Motrorcycle Grand Prix champion without earning it but for some the outlay is greater and path during the course of a season is steeper to climb. Since 2002 Valentino has benefitted from appreciable comparative advantage - even '04 and '06 saw mountains moved that to any other riders would have remained an impenetrable insurmountable wall.[/background]
[font=Helvetica Neue', Arial, Verdana, sans-serif][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]My nuts are still roasting from the flaming I got from suggesting that Rossi isn't pushing. In 2006 he claimed that his heart wasn't in it because he didn't perceive a challenge and wasn't at 100% - a bold admission and a familiar lull in motivation witnessed by so many top elite sportsman - JB is now quoted as saying that because Valentino is not being availed with the necessary equipment from Ducati he has 'lost focus' this even accounting for his Laguna crash. Again a collective snigger is audible from the rear of the grid. One thing I do genuinely loath about Rossi is the personal jibes and that he insists on making about his rivals once he perceives a threat. "It is impossible to assess the potential of the Ducati because Casey isn't pushing hard enough"- Misano 2010. Vale himself decreed that the bike is good for seventh at best in the dry - and he's done his damnedest to vindicate himself to play another mind game - where Nicky is busting his balls for a rostrum and hold on to his job. Perhaps more fool Hayden, but that situation sickens me - no similar evacuation plan for Nick. So Vale claimed in 2010 that Casey wasn't pushing the Ducati - which really shouldn't be taken seriously and I suppose shouldn't barter it about an internet forum as being in the slightest bit significant being as it was simply another shallow attempt to get under a rivals skin. Like I say, Curves old Avi should be resurrected and reversed because the only egg on the face right now is the Tavullian one. Wayne Rayney:
"The Ducati did not fit him well and at that stage in his career he was not willing to push or adapt like Stoner. Rossi 12 years ago probably could have adapted but he wasn't prepared to throw himself down the road to make it work as much as he did crash".
And Stoner's view?
"It's obvious he needs an extremely good bike to win"
Or perhaps as usual Valentino is just playing the game masterfully, or his 'masters' 'gainfully'. Whichever, that crack in the Yamaha door I referred to three months ago - it's now opened - which wouldn't have happened to anyone else having spurned a Jap factory. Not often I give HRC props but I'm pleased that not only did it stay shut but that they slammed it in his face with such a resounding bang.[/background][/font]
Joined May 2008
3K Posts | 79+
Southern Aridzona - Hell's doorstep.
This is brilliant - so much so I need to conscript some emoticons from my mate Barry's battalion.
Post of the Week, dude!
Fair play you actually had me very interested in your response until you made that statement. Rossi left Honda at the end of 2003 for Yamaha, although the Honda was clearly the class of the field and Yamaha hadn't won since what? 1988? A bike which Max Biaggi said Rossi wouldn't win a damn thing on, and which other riders who followed the bike said it looked unrideable; yet he went on to not only win the first race but 8 more to the 2004 title. But yeah he had preferential treatment and superior machinery that year too
Joined Apr 2008
7K Posts | 3K+
Out of Nowhere
Fair play you actually had me very interested in your response until you made that statement. Rossi left Honda at the end of 2003 for Yamaha, although the Honda was clearly the class of the field and Yamaha hadn't won since what? 1988? A bike which Max Biaggi said Rossi wouldn't win a damn thing on, and which other riders who followed the bike said it looked unrideable; yet he went on to not only win the first race but 8 more to the 2004 title. But yeah, he had preferential treatment that year tooDo you also think Mick Doohan had preferential treatment because he had a superior bike for all his 5 championships?
Since 1949 - throughout its history this sport is replete with preferential treatment and comparative advantage. I could cite scores of examples of this as doubtless could you. Further, the politics are such that it cannot simply be reduced to a 'superior bike'.
Read my post again. Indeed, I'll say again, the 2004 title was a masterful achievement by team and rider alike. Further, yeah, I think perhaps the period/off season 2003 - 2004 is one of the greatest examples of preferential treatment I've ever seen in this sport and exactly what I'm referring to - thanks for highlighting it again.
Max Biaggi wasn't perhaps the greatest exponent of rational thinking but to be fair, no Rossi wouldn't have and didn't win the first race of 2004 on the M1 screamer nor did he go on to win eight races on the version of the M1 that Max rode. None of the raft of changes that accompanied Valentino's move to yam were available to previous riders. The original M1 unveiled at Suzuka in 2002 was developed by Kocinski for ..... sake. So no - I seriously question whether Valentino could have won a single GP far less a championship on that incarnation. The 03 M1 that Barros rode was a lethal death trap. The entire machine was utterly transformed where previous feedback had been completely ignored or dismissed. The budget for Rossi was quadruple that of Melandri or Checa - actually, increased tenfold would probably be a fairer assessment. There is no doubt that Valentino's input was crucial to the change but Yamaha massively upped the stakes to secure his signature. By the curtain opener in Welkom the bike was clearly still inferior to the RCV, which in my opinion remained the case throughout the season and is one of the reasons that the championship victory was so memorable but the preferential treatment behind the scenes afforded to Vale as opposed to previous incumbents, the disproportionate advantages conferred to Rossi over the rest of the paddock, and the ludicrous privileges with Michelin under the old tyre rule served him very nicely.
Answer the question - would Valentino transformed Yamaha's fortunes on the same bike that Alex Barros was given the year before?
And in the history of the sport, many companies have seriously upped their game and seriously spent after being beaten for many years by their competition. More recent examples are Suzuki 1999-2000, Yamaha 2003-2004, Ducati 2006-2007, Yamaha 2008, Honda 2010-2011. The inheritance of a title winning race equipment is certainly not limited to Valentino Rossi.
It would be interesting to get the actual figures........I would like to know what Honda spent in 2010-11, for the bike that Nicky Hayden endured in 2007/2008 certainly wasn't a patch on Casey Stoners 2011 machine. From what I can gather from articles the entire drivetrain was completely redisgned several times before the seamless shift saw the light of day, and in 2010 alone it has been written they went through 15-20 chassis variations, with another 10 or so sorted through in 2011, and another 8-10 already this season, plus a new motor and a completely new bike in Mugello.
IMO's Honda's budget for 2011 was at least quadruple that of 2008-09, four full factory efforts alone would nearly cover this, so one could say that the riders on this machine could also be considered to have received preferential treatment, due to Honda insatialble appetite to at least secure one 800cc world title. As I'd imagine Yamaha's was in 2003-04 after spending 10 years on the back foot........
Joined Apr 2008
7K Posts | 3K+
Out of Nowhere
But only one rider was about to elicit such spending.
Riders being the operative word though. True though - and I'd wager that the vast sums spent developing the Pedrocycle in a misguided bid to dominate the new 800cc class are also akin to the collective GDP of a dozen African Nations.
My point is that you'd have to go back to Ago in the late sixties to see anything vaguely resembling the same elevated sustained levels of support and advantage consistently and repeatedly revolving around one rider for such a duration.
As you say, many companies have indeed upped their game - my point being, it wasn't going to happen at Yamaha for Biaggi, Barros, Checa or Melandri. My question remains - would Valentino have won the opening round at Welkom or indeed the 04 championship on anything vaguely resembling the previous M1 - 'cause you can be damn sure that had Barros still have been riding it that year it would have remained pretty much identical.
I beg to differ as Checa and Melandri both had the 2004 M1 as well. One could say that Rossi's signing of course increased the efforts at Yamaha no doubt, the same can be said for Stoner's signing at Honda in 2010........
Lmao!!! Forums that praise Rossi? Where? I'm a fan of MotoGP not just Rossi. It's just ridiculous how ever forum and every topic I see comes down to people talking .... about every move he makes. I guess it's the price you pay for success. He won a lot and now he isn't winning so omg what a piece of .... he is? He was gifted 105 wins. I just dont understand tv's hatrid for any if these guys. I envy anyone who can ride a MotoGP bike fast enough to qualify for a GP. Why do u think that based on one post that you can pass such judgment on me. You have no clue what I think about anybody. I guess your just used to assuming things
Can you see the error in your post?
Honda have stated that they spent a similar amount in the period that they spent in other years.
Maybe, just maybe, the engineering all 'clicked' - that all the hard work and R&D came together with the slick new gearbox, the new chassis, and a new team dynamic made for a race-winning partnership.
Joined Apr 2008
7K Posts | 3K+
Out of Nowhere
The reason I mentioned both riders was because comparisons were being made with the previous incarnation of the M1 prior to 2004 which they both had the misfortune to ride - I also mentioned Barros and Max.
Marco was riding a satellite M1 for Tech 3 along with Abe which was a very different seat back then and as I remember was blighted by injury and arm pump that year. Just curious, regarding Checa, would you honestly venture that he recieved anything like the factory priority and input that his teammate did in 2004 and would the M1 had been completely revamped in the same way for Carlos had Yamaha had not secured Valentino's signature?
Joined Jul 2011
1K Posts | 872+
Dont Know
Riders for sure only win championships when everything comes together. Bike, tires, team rider. The big difference where Rossi is concerned, which separates him so much from other equally talented riders, is what happens when things dont come together.
The perfect example was a press conference at Indy where at one end of the table rossi said he merely wants a bike he can enjoy racing for the next two years because he's not so young these days, while at the other end of the table was none other than a world champion saying nothing but thanks to ducati for giving him another year? Stark contrast if ever there was one.
Wow, come to think of it hands up which rider just wants to enjoy two years on a competitive bike? Ok hands down and piss off back to your crt's and ducrt because you aint gettin it.
The perfect example was a press conference at Indy where at one end of the table rossi said he merely wants a bike he can enjoy racing for the next two years because he's not so young these days, while at the other end of the table was none other than a world champion saying nothing but thanks to ducati for giving him another year? Stark contrast if ever there was one.
Wow, come to think of it hands up which rider just wants to enjoy two years on a competitive bike? Ok hands down and piss off back to your crt's and ducrt because you aint gettin it.
after reading all of this and not really having much to say, i guess im just going to point out one thing.
When Rossi was winning (most) people agreed he was great and it was amazing to see him do wat he does. How times change! Now, I must point out that being a Rossi fan makes this arguement a bit less credible, but whatever. I am still a fan but have moved on in terms of wanting to see others win.
Now that Rossi is having bad times, everyone wants to crucify him. I guess you can compare Rossi to Shumacher in F1, who now has people saying that his 7 titles were all bs. You can't be the best forever, that is just a fact.
I like lorenzo's point of view of Rossi the best of the others, he still respects him because he knows all the great things he has done on and off track (for the sport i mean).
He just wants to win again, and he must feel that deep down he will be able to with Yamaha, which is why he is moving. If he cant win on that, I'm sure he will hang up his leathers.
When Rossi was winning (most) people agreed he was great and it was amazing to see him do wat he does. How times change! Now, I must point out that being a Rossi fan makes this arguement a bit less credible, but whatever. I am still a fan but have moved on in terms of wanting to see others win.
Now that Rossi is having bad times, everyone wants to crucify him. I guess you can compare Rossi to Shumacher in F1, who now has people saying that his 7 titles were all bs. You can't be the best forever, that is just a fact.
I like lorenzo's point of view of Rossi the best of the others, he still respects him because he knows all the great things he has done on and off track (for the sport i mean).
He just wants to win again, and he must feel that deep down he will be able to with Yamaha, which is why he is moving. If he cant win on that, I'm sure he will hang up his leathers.
Well said. I think most people would agree that the most significant improvement of the M1 in 2004 was the revised firing order. But it is important to remember that a variety of engines were ready for Rossi when he arrived. Looking at the power delivery and firing order was a result of the feedback of Alex Barros and the miles of testing he did, and the solutions presented were a result of the expertise and genius of Furusawa.
I think people generally get carried away with the idea of riders (particularly Rossi) 'developing' a bike. When it comes down to it the riders don't actually develop the bike, the engineers do. Rossi has said as much himself. The mechanics, data technicians and team personel have the task of optimising the bike, not designing it. They have to get everything they can out of the scope of each setup parameter to keep the rider happy and the laptimes fast. The designers, back at the factory actually do the development work, designing parts and creating solutions to the problems they are made aware of. Both of these tasks rely rider feedback to be effective, but the rider does not develop the bike or make solutions to the problem, his job is to communicate his experience, sense changes and ride in an adaptable way.
For championships to be won all three of these things need to be working in sync and at an extremely high level, so it is not fair to overlook any of them when we look at a world champion rider and the men and women behind his success. One of the main draws of motorcycle racing is that it is very human, and that the rider really can make a big difference to his overall performance, both on the track and in the garage with his team. As technology increases and datalogging/setup gets more complex riders will be required to be increasingly technical in their understanding and their communication, but their judgement cannot be eliminated. I don't believe that the bike counts for significantly more of the result than it did when Rossi was winning in his heyday, I just think the game has changed and he took on a challange too far. He used to be the best on the grid at pretty much every aspect of being a GP rider, but his time at Ducati has also been the first time we have seen Rossi in a situation where all of the circumstances did not truly gel properley. I do not doubt he will be competitive next year, number two rider at Yamaha? Yes, Number two rider in the world? Quite possibly
I seem to recall that Masao had comissioned the big bang development midway through 2003 well before Rossi was signed due to the huge problems of the screamer at the time and based on feedback from Checa, Alex and Max. Speculating on Checa receiving similar treatment to Rossi is a waste of time as obviously at the time Rossi was already a 5 time world champ, and Checa was not. And with the same bike they both had very different results in 2004, so you could say that Yamaha made the right choice as to where they put their eggs, as Honda did in 2011.......
Yes I agree that signing a multiple world champ adds a serious amount of pressure to any engineering department, and Yamaha no doubt had a strategy all through 2003 to develop solutions to the woes and of course court the world champ, both of which they did successfully, and the plan worked spectacularly well in 2004.
Similarly Honda in 2010, had it all to lose and also knowing the format was going to change in 2012. Their approach was similar, only they threw more at it than Yamaha ever has. Stoner's signing, and 4 factory efforts heaped all of the pressure on the engineers to perform, and they did.
In both of these cases, the respective companies did a similar thing, why did Checa and Max, Alex and Marco not have the big bang in 2002-03? Why didn't Dani, Dovi and Nicky have the seamless shift in 2008-2010?
Yamaha and Honda appear to react to the riders they sign-mostly. This is where Ducati have fallen short, there is no point in hiring the most successful rider of the modern age, pay him a fortune, and not be in a position to offer extreme 'fundamental' changes to the machine immeadiately-knowing the experience that went along with that signing.
Its quite interesting to note, that in 2007, Ducati rather cleverly had the wood on the others through spending wisely with Maranelli, and reaped the huge investment from Bridgestone at the time, and of course the ultimate surprise in Casey Stoner. With the others falling quite short on HP and fuel management. All of these factors could probably moreso put down to fate and lots of luck-especially with hindsight and when considering their results thereafter, rather than strategic excellence, maybe I'm wrong and suppo and Prezi had it all worked out in 06.......
